When do you gear up Casual vs Full Gear?

[LanghamP]

37 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Sorry, but no! That is correlation, not causation.

I wrote correlated. You read it as causation. You should properly read it as correlated unless you trust your lying eyes.

[Darrell Wesh]

I came upon this a while back. Not sure how true it is as the 40mph msx crash the guy was bending pretty hard and still face planted although maybe that high of a speed was the reason 

[Scatcat]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I wrote correlated. You read it as causation. You should properly read it as correlated unless you trust your lying eyes.

My bad, I reread and you DID write correlated.

[Scatcat]

8 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I came upon this a while back. Not sure how true it is as the 40mph msx crash the guy was bending pretty hard and still face planted although maybe that high of a speed was the reason 

The pics are from Stefan's site, and the first pic is the same guy that I posted earlier. Friend of a friend in this case means Stefan's friend.

Stefan has tried to go at this methodically. I'm not sure that I agree with all his conclusions, but he has years of experience and quite a lot of falls, his own and others to draw his conclusions from. And while bent legs are no miracle cure for faceplants, standing with fully straight legs is more or less an invitation to disaster. With bent legs you won't lose contact with the pedals as easily, you won't wobble as easily and you will have at least a chance to initiate a controlled fall if your reaction time and strength so allows.

[NylahTay]

4 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I came upon this a while back. Not sure how true it is as the 40mph msx crash the guy was bending pretty hard and still face planted although maybe that high of a speed was the reason 

Nice post. The forward roll in the second photo is a technique that a lot of martial arts teach. It has saved me from a nasty wreck on my bicycle once where I flew over the handlebars. At the moment it was second nature to roll as I had practiced it in class so much.I've used it a few times on my EUC. Great skill to know how to fall properly. 

[Unventor]

18 minutes ago, NylahTay said:

Nice post. The forward roll in the second photo is a technique that a lot of martial arts teach. It has saved me from a nasty wreck on my bicycle once where I flew over the handlebars. At the moment it was second nature to roll as I had practiced it in class so much.I've used it a few times on my EUC. Great skill to know how to fall properly. 

It was kinda this I wrre attempting during my shoulder dislocation accident. 

I got cought on the curb so hard that my tumble downward was so fast and hard I couldn't continue the momentum right. I didn't get the arms up fast enough to act as support either.

I guess I  have to crash more to practice it...or maybe not😉

Pain comes and goes. But this week has been the worst. As first I didn't feel much. My crash is 2 weeks ago now.

[NylahTay]

11 minutes ago, Unventor said:

It was kinda this I wrre attempting during my shoulder dislocation accident. 

I got cought on the curb so hard that my tumble downward was so fast and hard I couldn't continue the momentum right. I didn't get the arms up fast enough to act as support either.

I guess I  have to crash more to practice it...or maybe not😉

Pain comes and goes. But this week has been the worst. As first I didn't feel much. My crash is 2 weeks ago now.

oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. We practice it a lot in martial arts because it takes a lot of practice to get the technique right, and if you hit your shoulder wrong it can cause some bad bruising. We generally start by learning it on our knees. If you think your technique is off, search youtube for forward roll Ukemi. There are a lot of videos that show good proper technique. 

[Unventor]

47 minutes ago, NylahTay said:

oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. We practice it a lot in martial arts because it takes a lot of practice to get the technique right, and if you hit your shoulder wrong it can cause some bad bruising. We generally start by learning it on our knees. If you think your technique is off, search youtube for forward roll Ukemi. There are a lot of videos that show good proper technique. 

Well I am out of practice. One thing is doint a rolling tumble in sports. Another is during accident that cought you by surprise.

[erk1024]

18 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The Fox Proframe is a very light and airy full face mountainbike helmet.

Thanks! The orange helmet I mentioned is the Fox Proframe. Thanks for the article, that was interesting. That was a few years ago, I wonder if they've changed their SNELL testing method since then?

I ended up getting this one (https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/fly-racing-dirt-f2-carbon-mips-rockstar-helmet) and they say it has a dual density liner, so somebody took that research seriously! 

"The dual density EPS liner is comprised of two layers of EPS (Expanded Polystyrene), one softer and one slightly harder, which combine to provide more progressive impact absorption for different levels of impact."

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by erk1024
added text

[Joker10]

That helemet should work about as good in Florida as any you can buy.  I picked up the bell super dh a few months ago and it is really well ventilated.  Guess we will see how it is when summer arrives in Orlando.

[Phunny]

I do all my own stunts. 😆😂 Practicing rolls is a good idea, if your body's gone through the motions before, it will be a lot easier to wing it if you've got to. Try it a few times, and sleep on it.

More important for me was learning to stay loose and relaxed. If you don't bend, you can break, and I have. My rolls are more of a loose plop, limbs loose and bent, body half way to fetal position. Land and roll like an egg. With the adrenaline you might end up on your feet after a roll. If this happens, relax, balance, and take a bow if you're not hurt. Smile!

Side note, like throwing a karate punch, if you're stiff and tight you can't move as fast. Cat like reflexes, fast as magic, come from staying loose and relaxed.

[RoadRunner]

 

[Smoother]

13 hours ago, erk1024 said:

"The dual density EPS liner is comprised of two layers of EPS (Expanded Polystyrene), one softer and one slightly harder, which combine to provide more progressive impact absorption for different levels of impact."

I have always thought that hard EPS liner seems a bit too hard.  I felt that something that would give more would decelerate the head a few thousandths slower. But, not being a brain injury expert I kept my mouth shut.  BUT here is practically an admission that they (professional helmet makers) have been doing it wrong all this time; a softer layer IS desirable "for different levels of impact."

EDIT: Think of it this way.  Stunt men don't jump off tall building onto a solid block of EPS,  and firemen don't lay blocks of EPS out for jumpers to land on, that would be absolutely mental.  They jump onto something that decelerates them at a controlled and safe way (without a helmet even) Air bag or fireman's "blanket" so even their brains are subject to this gradual deceleration. Obviously there are other things like twisting forces in an accident, but I say lets deal with the elephant in the room first; the sudden massive impact a helmet often takes when put to use in a crash.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Smoother

[erk1024]

39 minutes ago, Smoother said:

BUT here is practically an admission that they (professional helmet makers) have been doing it wrong all this time

Totally agree! And this solution seems like a good compromise. I just hope the helmet is not too much heavier than the Proframe MTB. I got the carbon / kevlar one for that reason. My motocross helmet from years ago weighed a ton! And that article @meepmeepmayer linked was spot on. Interesting stuff!

[Smoother]

35 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

@meepmeepmayer linked was spot on. Interesting stuff!

Well I went back to find that article, because I hadn't read it.   Very interesting.  In a nutshell, Snell tested helmets have linings that are too stiff, even by their own criteria, and if, as a professional in the motorcycle industry, you bring it up, you are likely to get fired.

[meepmeepmayer]

10 hours ago, Smoother said:

I felt that something that would give more would decelerate the head a few thousandths slower. But, not being a brain injury expert I kept my mouth shut.

Went for me like this, too. Every helmet I ever tried and the Proforame I bought made me think "This thing is rock hard, it's going to hurt in even a light crash." And just like you I believed the builders would know what's best, there's a reason every helmet is like this.

But apparently common sense does make sense here, and a nice soft cushy comfortable helmet might even be safer than the usual hard stuff. Your fireman and stuntman analogy is perfect here. A softer helmet would be more comfortable to wear, too, any hard helmet will hurt in time on a bad day.

Personally, I'm more interested in comfort and protection for the light and medium, more likely crashes than a theoretical ultra-rare worst case (where I assume it's mostly down to luck anyways).

[h3X]

On 4/11/2019 at 4:26 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

What happens when you fall and the car behind you, as you yourself suggest most people do, is unprepared to stop in time due to playing with their phone/lack of attention ? Will your helmet protect you then?

What happens if an airplane crashes with your car? Will your seat belt save you then?
It is kind of a silly question, because you always wear your seat belt, even though there does exist cases when it might make things worse, in most cases it will make things less bad. I didn't read the whole thread, but if you are really questioning the advantage of wearing a helmet, I'd say Charles Darwin is rolling over in his grave.

[mrelwood]

It’s interesting how given the same facts, people can arrive in opposite conclusions and decisions.

Looking at actual available EUC (not bicycle) ”stats”, I haven’t seen a single case of being actually driven over by a car. But I’ve seen easily a dozen scarred faces. Getting driven over doesn’t seem to be a notable risk, but scarring one’s face clearly is.

Along the lines of @Scatcat, I think people not wearing proper protection are just looking for anecdotes to support the decision they’ve already made. The rest of the facts can be ignored, or twisted out of proportions.

Sadly my brother is one of them, wears just an old bicycle helmet for all EUCing, no other gear. And no amount of facts can make him reconsider.

[erk1024]

On 4/13/2019 at 7:17 AM, erk1024 said:

I just hope the helmet is not too much heavier than the Proframe MTB

Just FYI, I returned that carbon motocross helmet. It was huge and heavy compared to the Proframe MTB. Also the padding felt like it was going to be hot. The Proframe has tons of vents like a typical cycling helmet, and it's very light while still being full-face. Keeping cool in Florida is a big problem. But I can sit at my desk with the jacket and helmet and not start to overheat, which is a good sign. The chin clasp on the Proframe is magnetic, so you just put one end on top of the other and it auto-clasps. It's a little tricky, but it's much faster to take on and off compared to the split-ring buckle type. I ended up just getting another Proframe, a white/red/black one that matched my white and black icon jacket. I chose that color of jacket because I thought the white would be cooler, and it definitely has better visibility. Thanks @meepmeepmayer for the helmet recommendation. You can read all the specs and reviews online, but you really don't get a true feel for something until you get it in your hands and use it a bit.

https://www.foxracing.com/proframe-helmet/23403.html?dwvar_23403_color=462&dwvar_23403_size=S&cgid=mtb-mens-helmets#sz=24&start=31

Edited April 28, 2019 by erk1024
added text

[Darrell Wesh]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It’s interesting how given the same facts, people can arrive in opposite conclusions and decisions.

Looking at actual available EUC (not bicycle) ”stats”, I haven’t seen a single case of being actually driven over by a car. But I’ve seen easily a dozen scarred faces. Getting driven over doesn’t seem to be a notable risk, but scarring one’s face 

And what did I say in my prior posts? I woul gladly take a scarred face then being run over by a car. 

What we know is those with scarred faces weren’t wearing helmets-and they fell. What if they would have been run over if they had been wearing a helmet (if they were in the street). You don’t know that. 

Once again I’ll point to the data about bicyclists wearing helmets ( have less following distance by cars)which we can extrapolate to EUC usage as well since I see so many comparisons to bicycle usage we cannot just pick and choose what we can extrapolate from bikes to EUC. 

I win no Darwin Award because I won’t be the guy dead by having the higher statistical probability of being run over by a car- that will be you. A faceplant never killed anybody, and @mrelwood looking at available EUC stats- that is fact. 

[meepmeepmayer]

21 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

The chin clasp on the Proframe is magnetic, so you just put one end on top of the other and it auto-clasps. It's a little tricky, but it's much faster to take on and off compared to the split-ring buckle type.

I absolutely love that clasp. So super quick and easy to close and open. Just bring the ends vaguely in the same spot to close it, and just pinch it between two fingers to open. That and the exchangable cheek pads (for fine fitting) are pretty much a must for me in considering a helmet now.

Only complaint I have about the Proframe is that the inside padding is just thin, especially the forehead one where all the weight seems to lie. Any crash, no matter how light, is going to hurt simply because the inside of the helmet is too hard. And it's not too comfortable to just wear. 

But it appears all helmets have the same problem, so the Proframe isn't worse than the others in that regard. I want nice, thick, soft, comfortable inside cushioning.

[h3X]

I fail to see how wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be run over by a car. Can you explain that @Darrell Wesh?

[meepmeepmayer]

Car drivers are known to be less careful if the see cyclists wearing protective gear, to the extent that no protective gear is safer because cars behave better (wider berth, etc.). At least that was a result that people stated here. Not sure how general that is.

[mrelwood]

53 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I woul gladly take a scarred face then being run over by a car.

This is not a pick-n-choose matter either.

53 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

What if ...

Anything can be said after those words, none of which adds up to the facts.

53 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Once again I’ll point to the data about bicyclists wearing helmets ( have less following distance by cars)which we can extrapolate to EUC usage

No we can’t. We are not bicyclists. Car drivers react to us differently than to bicycles.

53 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I won’t be the guy dead by having the higher statistical probability of being run over by a car

Because you don’t wear a helmet. Got it.

53 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

A faceplant never killed anybody, and @mrelwood looking at available EUC stats- that is fact. 

Neither did being driven over by a car that was following too close. But it’s a propability for you to choose and gear up (or not) for. But basing your decision on stats or evidence doesn’t work, unless you indeed pick and choose.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Neither did being driven over by a car that was following too close. But it’s a propability for you to choose and gear up (or not) for. But basing your decision on stats or evidence doesn’t work, unless you indeed pick and choose.

lol what? Being driven over by a car is almost a guaranteed fatality or life altering. I don’t need to back up claims of what thousands of pounds of weight can do to a soft human body, gear or no gear. 

A faceplant is almost guaranteed to NOT be a fatality and with no life altering injuries.

As seen above from @h3X, some of you are joining this thread commenting without even reading the linked studies and data. 

My stance, let me throw it out there again, is that I ride mainly on the roads with cars, which makes my greatest fear getting hit or run over by a car. I don’t ride on sidewalks or paved paths often. If I fall on the road, I want the most following distance from the car behind me so I’m not instantly flattened. And since I’m on the road, going 30+mph, following distance is very important. 

I don’t get what’s so hard to see here; I choose increasing the chances of surviving a fall by passive means (not wearing a helmet on the road) over the probability of an unprotected faceplant(I say “probability” as a fall doesn’t always end up with you hitting your head or face)

As I’ve mentioned before in other threads; I wear full body armor or motorcycle jackets and pants. The helmet less thing is entirely from a cost benefit perspective. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Darrell Wesh