King Song Leaning Forward Behaviour [ HELP ]

[Tony Morales]

 

Firmware Version 1.08.

Something very strange with KS16-S is that it tilts forward when moving forward.

I hate this feature and I find it a bit dangerous.

In small bumbs you might slip forward and then you cannot brake. Also you get the feeling that you might slip of the wheel going uphill.

Is there a way to disable it?

To understand the issue better:

Calibrate your wheel slightly off the vertical axis as in the picture.

(1) Now ride the wheel trying to go forward, with the front face of the wheel facing forward.

(2) Then ride the other way, using the back of the wheel facing forward.

You will notice in (1) how much the wheel tilts to the front. In (2) nothing happens, it already leans forward.

If you recalibrate the wheel to a vertical position, this behaviour smooths out a bit, unnoticable at first, but still the wheel leans forward when riding.

Please someone help disable this.

Anybody? 

[MacPara]

And you're sure it's not what I had described in this thread? 

 

 

[Tony Morales]

12 minutes ago, MacPara said:

And you're sure it's not what I had described in this thread? 

I will take another look as I have to go, but yes I am sure. What you consider as tilt back at low speeds is that the wheel stops leaning forward.

You can try what I said (steps 1 and 2) and it will get obvious.

The wheel leans forward at some speed and recovers the calibrated position when braking/slow speeds.

 

 

[mrelwood]

This behavior is a feature in all wheels and it is adjusted by changing the riding mode in the app (official or Darknessbot etc). The softest setting (”learning mode”) in KS 16S is disturbing, but medium (”cycle mode”) and hard (”player mode”) are both good ridables.

It sounds like your wheel is in the ”learning mode”.

[Tony Morales]

My wheel is certainly not in learning mode, is not soft, just tilts forward when moving forward.

 

I tried today 5 (maybe more) different calibration angles with the pedals not parallel to the ground and found that there is some angle that this behaviour is tolerable. (Started with small angle from absolute vertical and increased the angle) 

Yes, when going slowly or braking the pedals are not parallel to the ground, but at least it does not lean forward so much that you feel you might slip off the wheel.

Another thing I (think) like is that when the pedals are at an angle (like on tilt back) you can take steeper turns. I enjoy this more.

 

Not sure though I will try again tomorrow.

I have the feeling that the tilting forward is not related to speed but to the amount of current drawn by the motor. As it did not lean so much on flat surface with ~ 15km/h but it leaned a lot uphill @ slower speed!

 

Not sure about anything yet. The riddle to be solved.

 

 

 

 

[seage]

You're not crazy, it does this, lol. I've gotten so used to it that i barely notice it now. But theres a corner i turn on everyday when riding, and everytime I go around this corner, the pedals softly dip forward, and then level out as i continue. I thought it was a calibration thing at first, as my calibration was all types of f'ed up. But its not. No matter what I do, it always tilts me forward. And going uphill puts me on my toes. I calibrated with a spirit level for left to right and forwards and back, so my wheel is perfectly level, haha. But it still does that regardless. I've just learned to deal with it. Feels normal at this point and the feeling of it doesnt scare me like it used to because i know it wont drop too low as to drop me off. 

And yeah, my wheel is in experienced mode too (the hardest mode)

[Tony Morales]

6 hours ago, seage said:

You're not crazy, it does this, lol. I've gotten so used to it that i barely notice it now. But theres a corner i turn on everyday when riding, and everytime I go around this corner, the pedals softly dip forward, and then level out as i continue. I thought it was a calibration thing at first, as my calibration was all types of f'ed up. But its not. No matter what I do, it always tilts me forward. And going uphill puts me on my toes. I calibrated with a spirit level for left to right and forwards and back, so my wheel is perfectly level, haha. But it still does that regardless. I've just learned to deal with it. Feels normal at this point and the feeling of it doesnt scare me like it used to because i know it wont drop too low as to drop me off. 

 And yeah, my wheel is in experienced mode too (the hardest mode)

Try some different angles with calibration. You might find the ride more joyful. It's better for me, much better

[MacPara]

21 hours ago, Tony Morales said:

 

No, what I described was just like your stuff. It was leaning forward when accelerating making me feel like I was going to slide off the pedals and then tiiting back too much when decelerating. This was so alarming that I never exceeded maybe 10 mph, so I am not sure how much worse it would have become at higher speeds. Anyway, after calibration this all went away instantaneously. I too had the wheel set to Expert mode which didn't seem to do anything to address the issue. 

[LanghamP]

15 hours ago, Tony Morales said:

I tried today 5 (maybe more) different calibration angles with the pedals not parallel to the ground and found that there is some angle that this behaviour is tolerable. (Started with small angle from absolute vertical and increased the angle) 

Yeah, my KS16S starts does the same thing on occasion, and I don't like it either. It seems to do that less these days but after a month or so it starts to do that, getting progressively worse.

What I think it is, is the gyros get ever so slightly knocked out of alignment from hitting bumps.

So you'll do the stand up the wheel and recalibrate, but that doesn't usually work. It turns out you have to align the wheel front and back and side to side. That means you cannot calibrate with the wheel leaning against a wall but rather standing straight up.

To verify the correct calibration went through, by hand move the wheel slowly forward then quickly spin the wheel 180 degrees to see if the pedals dip.

They should stay level in both turns and during acceleration.

[Smoother]

If any of you are experiencing this pedal dipping on your king song wheel THEN YOU HAVEN'T CALIBRATED IT CORRECTLY. END OF STORY.  You MUST make sure the wheel is exactly vertical in the left right plane before and during the calibration process.  For this you need a level or level APP (on a different phone than the one you are calibrating from).  And you need a way of keeping the wheel steady and level during the process. If you do not get it 100% level left to right, your pedal dipping will not go away.  This has been brought up many times for many years, on this forum.

I have two king songs and when, calibrated correctly there is no unusual pedal dipping when riding or turning, what so ever (but there has been in the past, when I didn't know the importance of a correct calibration).

[seage]

14 minutes ago, Smoother said:

If any of you are experiencing this pedal dipping on your king song wheel THEN YOU HAVEN'T CALIBRATED IT CORRECTLY. END OF STORY.  You MUST make sure the wheel is exactly vertical in the left right plane before and during the calibration process.  For this you need a level or level APP (on a different phone than the one you are calibrating from).  And you need a way of keeping the wheel steady and level during the process. If you do not get it 100% level left to right, your pedal dipping will not go away.  This has been brought up many times for many years, on this forum.

I have two king songs and when, calibrated correctly there is no unusual pedal dipping when riding or turning, what so ever (but there has been in the past, when I didn't know the importance of a correct calibration).

Hmmm...i calibrated mine with a spirit level 3 times. Not leaning on a wall. Perfectly centered and held up by some wood. That forward dip has never gone away.  Maybe its a faulty gyro situation for me then?

[Smoother]

16 minutes ago, seage said:

Hmmm...i calibrated mine with a spirit level 3 times. Not leaning on a wall. Perfectly centered and held up by some wood. That forward dip has never gone away.  Maybe its a faulty gyro situation for me then?

Sounds like you have done everything right.  Is the spirit level good?  That's not a factious question.  I have worked on building sites on and off for years, many spirit levels are out of calibration, the way to check it is to lay it on the same surface 180 degrees apart, the bubble should stop in the same relative place.  BTW are we talking about a long, like 3 foot long, level or a mini level and where did you place it?

[seage]

3 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Sounds like you have done everything right.  Is the spirit level good?  That's not a factious question.  I have worked on building sites on and off for years, many spirit levels are out of calibration, the way to check it is to lay it on the same surface 180 degrees apart, the bubble should stop in the same relative place.  BTW are we talking about a long, like 3 foot long, level or a mini level and where did you place it?

I used two separate ones. They were the long ones. I places them on the top of the wheel, under the handle. Taped it to the top, longways. Its kinda hard with the the protruding charge port. Im wondering if there may be a better place to put the level for more accuracy? 

[Tony Morales]

2 hours ago, seage said:

I used two separate ones. They were the long ones. I places them on the top of the wheel, under the handle. Taped it to the top, longways. Its kinda hard with the the protruding charge port. Im wondering if there may be a better place to put the level for more accuracy? 

On that matter, I assume it would be enough to use two leveled surfaces (like two bricks) that you will put the wheel on them,

Place the aluminum under the pedals on the leveled surfaces. 

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, Tony Morales said:

On that matter, I assume it would be enough to use two leveled surfaces (like two bricks) that you will put the wheel on them,

Place the aluminum under the pedals on the leveled surfaces. 

Yes that would work as long as two criteria are correct:

1. the bricks or blocks or what ever, are identical (some bricks are quite rough and uneven

2. the surface the bricks are placed on is exactly level.  Just assuming a floor is level is not good enough.

This process is similar to using one of those printed EUC stands, but the floor/table etc still needs to checked for level.

2 hours ago, seage said:

I used two separate ones. They were the long ones. I places them on the top of the wheel, under the handle. Taped it to the top, longways. Its kinda hard with the the protruding charge port. Im wondering if there may be a better place to put the level for more accuracy? 

Longways? You mean front to back as opposed to sideways (side to side)? If so, then no, no, no. (hey that rhymes) Sideways, the power port is not in the way.

Sideways would work, if two things are done:

1. confirm the level(s) are accurate (see above)

2. you tape them across the lowest part of the handle cut out at 90 degrees to the wheel, so the slope of the cut out (front and back) does not effect the reading)

[RockyTop]

  It is very hard to say what is going on unless someone with experience can test ride it. One man’s solid is another’s slight dip and to someone new with little confidence could be a giant dip.

  It could be calibrated wrong or the board could be bad. ( a video from the side would help )

  I know that a bad calibration can cause severe dipping. I also know that the KS wheels dip more than a MSuper X.  I have two KS16s and two KS18XL. They all dip about 3-5 degrees forward and back. I have two GW MSuper V3+ with 2000watt motors and heavy boards and one MSX. None of them dip more that one degree. 

 The normal KS dip is great once you get used to it. It comes down to timing and trust. 

[seage]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

Yes that would work as long as two criteria are correct:

1. the bricks or blocks or what ever, are identical (some bricks are quite rough and uneven

2. the surface the bricks are placed on is exactly level.  Just assuming a floor is level is not good enough.

This process is similar to using one of those printed EUC stands, but the floor/table etc still needs to checked for level.

Longways? You mean front to back as opposed to sideways (side to side)? If so, then no, no, no. (hey that rhymes) Sideways, the power port is not in the way.

Sideways would work, if two things are done:

1. confirm the level(s) are accurate (see above)

2. you tape them across the lowest part of the handle cut out at 90 degrees to the wheel, so the slope of the cut out (front and back) does not effect the reading)

A real man can admit when hes wrong..... but in this situation, Smoother, how much do i owe you? Since you just sold me a new wheel...WHAT HAVE I BEEN RIDING THIS ENTIRE TIME?! I taped it across as you said. Put it up on 2 2x4's and got it so that it was perfectly level side to side by putting some rags under one side. Had the level in that slope. had to put a piece of wood against the wheel incase it decided to try to burn out in the air. And then set the calibration. I figured i wouldnt feel any difference since i've calibrated it multiple times.. Stepped on and I felt like i was on stilts........ I was MUCH higher than I was used to. Went down the driveway and rode towards the mailbox and i was still up there...what?? I leaned forward a bit and the wheel accelerated with speeds ive never experienced...and the platform was like a bloody ROCK. It was unmovable. By the end of the ride, i felt like i was just thinking about accelerating and it was happening, instead of actually leaning into it. This is ridiculous...DO YOU MEAN TO TELL ME, IVE BEEN RIDING ON MARSHMALLOWS FOR 300KM?!?! 

Damn ittttttttttt!

[seage]

Im perplexed, lmao. I was so careful with that damn callibration in the past. Since i had the craaaaaaazy wonky stuff happening out of the box. But the way i had the level on it, i just kinda...tryed to eye it to get it right so it would be perfect forward and back, and side to side... I feel like an idiot, lmao..... I understand what you mean now @Smoother. I probably would have found out this weekend though, as im going on my first ever group ride. And i was gonna ask the others to try my wheel and let me know if it was all jacked up, haha. This is kinda incredible...now im even MORE excited to ride...but i have another deadline tomorrow that im procrastinating on again.....

[RockyTop]

It sounds like everyone needs to recalibrate their KingSong wheels. I calibrate mine every few months. They tend to start leaning back more than I like over time. I calibrate as described above. 

[Smoother]

18 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

It sounds like everyone needs to recalibrate their KingSong wheels. I calibrate mine every few months. They tend to start leaning back more than I like over time. I calibrate as described above. 

Interesting you say that.  I've been feeling that my pedals are tilted more rear than I like them, but I just thought I was being hyper critical.  I'll put a level on it and see.  Unfortunately I can't remember what angle I like.  I'll assume level, for now.

EDIT. Well doesn't that just take the biscuit!  I measured my pedals at a 2 degree lean.... forwards. I think I'm losing my mind.

About electronic gyros, I believe every manufacturer uses the same gyro, or similar gyros, and the term "drift" has come up before.  I believe over time they all drift a bit.

[seage]

14 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

It sounds like everyone needs to recalibrate their KingSong wheels. I calibrate mine every few months. They tend to start leaning back more than I like over time. I calibrate as described above. 

I cant remember who it was, but someone else told me that their KS starts to lean after a while and that they calibrate every few months as well. So i suppose it really is a thing. Something i'll keep in mind, so i can keep having this amazing feeling. 

 

I wonder if smoothers approach will also help OP like it helped me? Its hard to know when its off as a beginner. We can only assume as we have no experience and nothing to compare to. 

[Smoother]

5 minutes ago, seage said:

I wonder if smoothers approach will also help OP like it helped me? Its hard to know when its off as a beginner. We can only assume as we have no experience and nothing to compare to. 

I had the same thing happen to me when I was new (after a sloppy calibration)  Wheel did all sorts of weird stuff, some of it I liked, funny enough.  Example.  When braking the backs of the pedals would sink down gently like a motorboat coming off plane and sinking down in the water.  If I could have kept that piece I would have, because it really felt intuitive and integral to the braking process.  Alas, once the forum told me how to correct the problem my motorboat braking went away too.

[seage]

42 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I had the same thing happen to me when I was new (after a sloppy calibration)  Wheel did all sorts of weird stuff, some of it I liked, funny enough.  Example.  When braking the backs of the pedals would sink down gently like a motorboat coming off plane and sinking down in the water.  If I could have kept that piece I would have, because it really felt intuitive and integral to the braking process.  Alas, once the forum told me how to correct the problem my motorboat braking went away too.

Ah yes! I had that. And its now gone. It did feel nice. I wonder if medium mode would give some of that feeling back? Im going to play with the modes and see what they're supposed to feel like. 

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

Interesting you say that.  I've been feeling that my pedals are tilted more rear than I like them, but I just thought I was being hyper critical.  I'll put a level on it and see.  Unfortunately I can't remember what angle I like.  I'll assume level, for now.

EDIT. Well doesn't that just take the biscuit!  I measured my pedals at a 2 degree lean.... forwards. I think I'm losing my mind.

About electronic gyros, I believe every manufacturer uses the same gyro, or similar gyros, and the term "drift" has come up before.  I believe over time they all drift a bit.

  The drift seems to happen faster with aggressive riding. I think when it drifts forward or back, No big deal. If it drifts sideways, you get extra dip. 

  I like my KS perfectly level and my GW 2.5 degrees forward. I wear Vans (flat shoes) when riding so the 2.5 feels good. 

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

  The drift seems to happen faster with aggressive riding. I think when it drifts forward or back, No big deal. If it drifts sideways, you get extra dip. 

  I like my KS perfectly level and my GW 2.5 degrees forward. I wear Vans (flat shoes) when riding so the 2.5 feels good. 

NO.NO. your mixing up two completely different concepts.  Drift is when the gyro slowly over time moves away form the zero setting it had when it was last correctly calibrated.  What you are describing, and feeling, is the behavior of the wheel caused by the algorithm responding to the incorrect zero, caused by the drift.  Again what you are feeling is not the drift, but how the wheel behaves because drift is present.  Correctly re-calibrate the wheel (zero the drift ) and all the funny behavior goes away.

And just to be clear, you can set the pedals at any acceptable angle during calibration, just as long as the side to side orientation as dead on vertical.