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EUC Crash @ 40 MPH (Was: Please wear safety gear)


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@Duf I think you comments above are spot on. Since tjis hold long posts I didn't quote it. 

The main issue here is msny EU countries it is illegal to ride EUCs. Now we are see some opening in some countries but with a 20kmh speed limit. As people do these high speed crashes and going all over the road in group rodes, it seems to me little chance to get a more reasonable top speed limit in line with other transportation forms. The more accidents and injuries that occur the easier we can get a ban. None of us EUC riders would like that.

Guys could have an opinion that they live in a gree country so why should they care...

Because it will effect sales and the revenues to develop new wheels. And this could kill EUCs in the long term.

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On 3/21/2019 at 3:52 AM, Marty Backe said:

Is there really that much difference between riding 20-mph and 40-mph, in terms of an out-of-control wheel? Probably not. Yet I'm riding at those speeds all the time, along with many other people (including Duf). If my wheel fails it could roll into oncoming traffic or into pedestrians. So we can only ride on cleared roads with no people?

Hell, what about everyone who rides close to people at 5-mph. Our 50-pound wheels could still hurt people

A difference between 20 mph and 40 mph ?  Well, yes actually 20 more mph to be exact, or double the speed.  And since force is not proportional to speed it is exponential (E=MC squared and all that) the force of a wheel at 40 is considerably more than the force of a wheel at 20.  Add to that, when you are riding that wheel at 20 (on that wheel), you are no where near cut off or tilt back, or melted wires, or death wobble, or the limits of your skill and if you do encounter any of those conditions, not only do you have more time to deal with them, but if you fail to deal with them, the consequences for you and others are significantly reduced due to the force statement above.

An out of control wheel at 40mph, can travel further, bounce higher and impact harder.  Also because it is travelling faster it gives people in its path less time to process the situation and react; whether that is to duck, run, jump, swerve, or what ever.  Less time to react means less chance or reacting correctly, or successfully, and more chance that getting it wrong will negatively impact the reactor or someone else (driver swerving to avoid wheel bouncing at his windshield runs over pedestrian, for example).

On 3/21/2019 at 4:10 AM, Darrell Wesh said:

This was clearly an accident, for it to not be an accident would be to ridiculously assume the rider wanted to cut out and fall.

No one suggested this wasn't an accident. Who in their right mind deliberately crashes an EUC at 40mph?  The point is it was avoidable by not disabling all the safety features and then going for a race.

On 3/21/2019 at 4:10 AM, Darrell Wesh said:

no harm done in racing little EUC’s at what was likely the actual speed limit on that road that cars would be going at.

Speed limits are for vehicles with steering wheel (Or handlebars),  and seat belts, and doors that prevent you from falling out and not being able to maintain contact with the driving controls, not for  something that one can fall off and lose contact with in an instant.  And racing on city streets is illegal, what ever your vehicle. So yes there is harm in racing, legally and physically.  Speed limits are also for vehicles that are completely safe at those speeds when driven correctly, not for vehicles that top out, and crash at those speed limits.

On 3/21/2019 at 3:52 AM, Marty Backe said:

Hell, what about everyone who rides close to people at 5-mph. Our 50-pound wheels could still hurt people

Again, the chance of breaching any safety limit of the wheel or rider are slim to none at 5mph (for an experienced rider, learners should be no where near the public), and if for some reason the rider does come off, the ability to jump off and grab the wheel is substantially higher at this speed, or if grabbing fails the slow moving wheel imparts significantly less force than the fast moving wheel, is easy to see, and avoid, and is much more likely to simply flop over on its side and not bounce at speed into an innocent bystander.

On 3/21/2019 at 3:52 AM, Marty Backe said:

Regarding your first paragraph, I suspect Vano didn't think that he was near his cutoff speed. I doubt that he wanted to risk crashing or breaking his wheel. He misjudged the situation.

This is precisely why one shouldn't disable every safety measure and then race someone on a public street.

 

On 3/21/2019 at 4:10 AM, Darrell Wesh said:

We say this word racing so much but you cannot compare this to cars and motorcycles weighing hundreds to thousands of pounds racing on a public street completely disrespecting the speed limit. 

First of all Vehicle racing on public streets is illegal.  This is an EUC forum, we are discussing this crash, not trying to justify it by pointing out the illegal activity of others.  Secondly, as stated above, cars have steering wheels, seat belts, brake pedals, doors,and four wheels to keep them upright, motorcycles have their equivalents, We have two feet and two pedals, and one wheel   Once we lose control of the wheel we lose contact with it  and any further ability to control it or where it goes.  Additionally even though vehicle racing is illegal those racers are rarely racing at the absolute top speed of their vehicle (on city streets, freeways can see this) and not one of those vehicles is designed to expel the operator and tumble out of control, the instant top speed is reached.

 I believe I have laid out my case clearly and covered every aspect thoroughly. I do not want to waste any more of my life going round and round the same points, so this is my last statement on this subject. 

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When a person pays $2000 for a toy then they should ride it as they see fit. I don't see a right or a wrong on this topic. Just opinions. I have and will never see anyone drive/ride any vehicle just the same as everyone else. I suspect that person was well aware that he could go down hard while pushing the limits. I see no error in his personal choice to do so.

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10 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Is there really that much difference between riding 20-mph and 40-mph, in terms of an out-of-control wheel? Probably not. Yet I'm riding at those speeds all the time, along with many other people (including Duf). If my wheel fails it could roll into oncoming traffic or into pedestrians. So we can only ride on cleared roads with no people?

Hell, what about everyone who rides close to people at 5-mph. Our 50-pound wheels could still hurt people. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. Now I just about never see Duf among anybody else, so it's hard to say whether he's a hypocrite :) I suspect he cuts out all video that contains other people, for reasons I don't know. Or there are no pedestrians in Florida.

Regarding your first paragraph, I suspect Vano didn't think that he was near his cutoff speed. I doubt that he wanted to risk crashing or breaking his wheel. He misjudged the situation.

Yea this is going off on tangents that are rather nonsensical,  so I will discontinue my thoughts here.  I think my point was pretty clear and if you or others consider that being a safety Nazi, so be it.  I'll continue to point out when people are riding in an irresponsible way and most will continue to ignore, applaud or excuse it, that is just reality, unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, Smoother said:

No one suggested this wasn't an accident. Who in their right mind deliberately crashes an EUC at 40mph?  The point is it was avoidable by not disabling all the safety features and then going for a race.

Speed limits are for vehicles with steering wheel (Or handlebars),  and seat belts, and doors that prevent you from falling out and not being able to maintain contact with the driving controls, not for  something that one can fall off and lose contact with in an instant.  And racing on city streets is illegal, what ever your vehicle. So yes there is harm in racing, legally and physically.  Speed limits are also for vehicles that are completely safe at those speeds when driven correctly, not for vehicles that top out, and crash at those speed limits.

Again, the chance of breaching any safety limit of the wheel or rider are slim to none at 5mph (for an experienced rider, learners should be no where near the public), and if for some reason the rider does come off, the ability to jump off and grab the wheel is substantially higher at this speed, or if grabbing fails the slow moving wheel imparts significantly less force than the fast moving wheel, is easy to see, and avoid, and is much more likely to simply flop over on its side and not bounce at speed into an innocent bystander.

This is precisely why one shouldn't disable every safety measure and then race someone on a public street.

 

First of all Vehicle racing on public streets is illegal.  This is an EUC forum, we are discussing this crash, not trying to justify it by pointing out the illegal activity of others.  Secondly, as stated above, cars have steering wheels, seat belts, brake pedals, doors,and four wheels to keep them upright, motorcycles have their equivalents, We have two feet and two pedals, and one wheel   Once we lose control of the wheel we lose contact with it  and any further ability to control it or where it goes.  Additionally even thought vehicle racing is illegal those racers are rarely racing at the absolute top speed of their vehicle (on city streets, freeways can see this) and not one of those vehicles is designed to expel the operator and tumble out of control, the instant top speed is reached.

 I believe I have laid out my case clearly and covered every aspect thoroughly. I do not want to waste any more of my life going round and round the same points, so this is my last statement on this subject. 

I was quoting Duf who said this “wasn’t an accident”. When it clearly was in this riders case. I see you share my same sentiments.

As for the speed limit thing, you’ve got to be kidding me right? It doesn’t matter what you’re on, bike, skateboard, car, EUC. If you speed you’re going to get pulled over and ticketed. Cars and cops are always extremely happy when I’m going the speed limit and traveling with traffic instead of crawling along 10 under and holding everyone up or causing them to go out of their lane to avoid me. That alone is why I get so much more respect than a bicyclist on the road; I’m not holding anyone up. If you’re going to be on the road; keep up! 

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14 hours ago, Duf said:

This wasn't an accident. He didn't hit a rock, a pothole, or have an animal dart out in front of him, he just dropped the hammer

My bad. Somebody did say it was an accident (a quote would have been nice)  However, @Duf s statement (as quoted above) is essentially correct. Disable all the safety and drive as fast as you can is in fact no accident, it is more or less a certainty.  Thanks for the Negative vote btw .  Glad we can discuss this in a civilized way.;)

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1 minute ago, Smoother said:

My bad. Somebody did say it was an accident (a quote would have been nice)  However, @Duf s statement (as quoted above) is essentially correct. Disable all the safety and drive as fast as you can is in fact no accident, it is more or less a certainty.  Thanks for the Negative vote btw .  Glad we can discuss this in a civilized way.;)

LOL I saw someone on this thread talk about how we never use the downvote and I saw my chance.... just this one time. 

I agree racing is completely irresponsible and this could have been avoided if he simply hadn’t raced. My very first ride with other PEV’s had a guy fall trying to race me  on his eboard. From that experience I never race and I laugh at people that ask me to show them how fast my EUC goes.

Btw, correct me if I’m wrong but Gotway limits you to like 48kph as the max tiltback setting so in order to go faster you have to disable tiltback. I’m sure it was beeping hard at him, just couldn’t hear it at those speeds with a full face helmet. 

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13 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

LOL I saw someone on this thread talk about how we never use the downvote and I saw my chance.... just this one time. 

:roflmao:

13 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Btw, correct me if I’m wrong but Gotway limits you to like 48kph as the max tiltback setting so in order to go faster you have to disable tiltback. I’m sure it was beeping hard at him, just couldn’t hear it at those speeds with a full face helmet. 

I've never even heard a Gotway in the plastic ( oh yeah, they're silent now anyway) but the general consensus is disable alarms one and two, set alarm three at your preference, and disable tilt back.  By consensus, I mean that's what they all seem to recommend and do.   Once tilt back is turned off the wheel will go faster and faster until there is nothing left to give  and the pedals go floppy (can't hear 3rd beeps at third beep speed  anyway, especially with a FF helmet, as you said, unless you turn your head sideways (no wind noise). Hard to ride at speed with a turned head listening for beeps or staring at a App/speedo.

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54 minutes ago, Smoother said:

...but the general consensus is disable alarms one and two, set alarm three at your preference, and disable tilt back.

Correct, it's what I did on my ACM2, but the 3rd alarm cannot be changed/deactivated. it's the 80% power limit, and I'm very careful never to exceed it.

For this reason I added a supplementary buzzer that help me to stay in the limits. (I hear the beeps even with the helmet at 50km/h)

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2 hours ago, Duf said:

Yea this is going off on tangents that are rather nonsensical,  so I will discontinue my thoughts here.  I think my point was pretty clear and if you or others consider that being a safety Nazi, so be it.  I'll continue to point out when people are riding in an irresponsible way and most will continue to ignore, applaud or excuse it, that is just reality, unfortunately.

@Duf, maybe your browser doesn't show smilies, but I thought it was clear that my "safety Nazi" comment was a joke. IT WAS A JOKE.

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On 3/20/2019 at 10:52 PM, Marty Backe said:

Hell, what about everyone who rides close to people at 5-mph. Our 50-pound wheels could still hurt people. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. Now I just about never see Duf among anybody else, so it's hard to say whether he's a hypocrite. Or there are no pedestrians in Florida.

Florida is exceptionally dangerous for pedestrians.

I'd be far more worried about a truck going into people, as light trucks and SUV are three times more deadly that a normal car.

Notice the way the driver rolls through the sidewalk near bus stop; you cannot compare EUCs as dangerous to pedestrians because they have so little energy. Big threats first.

I believe you and @Duf have pickups (not sure), but driving one of those especially above 20 mph is practically a death sentence to anyone you hit. Especially if you have bullhorns like a lot of trucks owners do; that front just punches right through the head and chest then runs you over.

Race all you want, crash, and then yell at pedestrians to catch your runaway wheel; nothing you do comes even close to driving a deadly pickup truck. 

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9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

@Duf, maybe your browser doesn't show smilies, but I thought it was clear that my "safety Nazi" comment was a joke. IT WAS A JOKE.

Oh I know that, wasn't referring to that part of it.  It's fine, I never expected to get an avalanche of support for raining on the fun parade.

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If I had a dollar for every mistake, accident, or youthful impulse I've had, well, I'd be hanging out with Bill Gates.  :whistling:  Pushing 40 MPH on a EUC that has no foolproof safety measures at the point of failure is asking for trouble, but I can see how testosterone mixed with spur of the moment exuberance easily can overpower common sense in respect to EUC limitations.  We've all seen the out of control careening path that Ron from Miami's wheel took when his Telsa ceased balancing at the upper end.  Luckily we haven't seen an out of control wheel injure a pedestrian or other personal property.  Yet.

Showing off and EUCs just don't tend to mix.  Most accidents seem to happen when people forget that fact.  I'm glad the rider who fell is okay.  It's all a learning process.  I'm sure he is now more aware of how to avoid a repeat of his accident.  Others who see it likely will learn from what happened.  It's not the first time someone has fallen and not the last, but hopefully it will help reinforce to others that these marvelous balancing machines are not infallible just like the riders who roll on them.

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5 hours ago, FULspeed said:

Correct, it's what I did on my ACM2, but the 3rd alarm cannot be changed/deactivated. it's the 80% power limit, and I'm very careful never to exceed it.

For this reason I added a supplementary buzzer that help me to stay in the limits. (I hear the beeps even with the helmet at 50km/h)

Details of that mod would be nice. I'll even pre-name it in your honor.  Please give us details of the "Fulspeed mod"

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On 3/18/2019 at 11:04 AM, Alien Rides said:

I don't see a thread about safety gear on the first page, which means we're long overdue for one 😅

During our last  group ride we had a EUC cut-out at 40mph. Luckily due to a good selection of safety gear the rider was able to walk away from this one. Please gear up well when riding, it sucks seeing a friend go down.

 

 

 

glad he s ok. that was rough......

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3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

It's not the first time someone has fallen and not the last, but hopefully it will help reinforce to others that these marvelous balancing machines are not infallible just like the riders who roll on them.

How are you feeling buddy? I hope you return to riding.

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On 3/20/2019 at 2:22 PM, Marty Backe said:

I've learned to not judge too harshly because when you're in the moment (actually there participating), things are not quite so black & white as they can seem when viewed from afar (sitting in front of a computer screen).  What you see here is a typical EUC group ride amongst high energy enthusiasts. At least it's been my experience with the vast number of California group rides that I've participated in.  I've seen first hand similar group behavior with E-boarders and Onewheeler's.

Maybe other places they are more sedate :confused1:

I have ridden with these exact guys and everyone is responsible, caring, etc. Yes, some people have a higher risk tolerance than others (me) and sometimes suffer the consequences. But they have big passions for EUCs and are living the EUC life to its fullest, IMHO.

 

Spot on IMO, it was definitely an accident due to getting caught up in the moment. This area opens up to a wide, relatively empty road, compared to most streets in the city. With an energetic group it's hard to not open up a little bit here. While we were near pedestrians, cars are often going much faster than we are, right next to the pedestrians.

At the end of the day the rider definitely realized they made a mistake and owned up to it. We're lucky that no one was seriously injured in this incident, and hopefully everyone can learn from it.

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7 hours ago, Alien Rides said:

due to getting caught up in the moment.

Yes I can definitely see that. Someone says "lets race", and before you can do an in depth health and safety analysis, you're flying along at a speed you never set out to achieve when you woke up that morning.

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13 hours ago, Smoother said:

Details of that mod would be nice. I'll even pre-name it in your honor.  Please give us details of the "Fulspeed mod"

Haha! I don't think I deserve such an honor for so little! :P
I simply added a buzzer, similar to the existing one (Ali, around 1 $ ...) and I welded it to the same cables (an Y connection)

The sound level of the alarm is obviously not doubled, but definitely stronger than before.

double buzzer.jpg

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Cr@p, looks like I'm late for the party! :efee612b4b:  Interesting debate you've got going on here. I'd say all the relevant arguments have already been made, but I do have a few thoughts that back/add to the rationale of....

[drum roll]

...the "Safety Nazi" side! (from the guy who face-planted at 40 km/h last week due to inattention)  :efee612b4b:

So I guess I'll start there by saying that I feel this crash was caused by a form of inattention: I totally understand how one can get caught up in the moment, the adrenaline rush, and have that overpower common sense and the wheel's limitations. Excitement, after all, can be seen as a distraction, and one with a grip on us that can be hard to shake off. I know that was my case...So no judgement here. Firstly, I'm glad the rider is OK. Secondly, I'm glad people are sharing this kind of content (and don't want to discourage it by being overly critical), as we all learn both from the event itself and from the discussions that ensue. There's a lot of food for thought in this thread. :)

As to the debate...I entirely agree with @Duf and Smoother (not tagging, not sure he wants to be dragged back into the debate...unless, perhaps, it's with those pink hand-cuffs of his)

Tiltback and other safety features are implemented for a reason. Disabling them seems like an ill-advised choice to me, particularly when it's been so well-documented in this here forum that that 3rd beep is as useful (particularly when wearing a FF helmet) as the idiot light on old cars, which only comes on once it's too late. Something else that puzzles me in that regard is why people opt for permanent settings: tiltback and beeps can be enabled and disabled at will, in a matter of seconds. It would be ridiculously easy (and make a lot of sense) to disable it, for instance, when riding/speed testing in deserted areas, tracks, etc., and enable it for casual daily riding or group rides, where you know you might find yourself pushing your limits (particularly in group rides where playful banter between EUCs and boosted boards can easily lead to spontaneous racing...)

On the subject of speed and speed limits, I once again have to give it to Smoother: I agree with 100% of what he said: Speed limits are set with cars and motorcycles in mind, not EUCs: a speed limit of 50 km/h / 30 mph is set for a particular environment with the aim of giving cars and M/Cs (based on their braking capacity and drivers' level of control over their vehicle) sufficient reaction time and braking distance to avert an accident. If, say, a car's max. speed is 140 mph, we're talking about a speed limit that is 21% of the vehicle's max. speed. That means that at 30 mph, the driver is in no way pushing the limits of his car and has AMPLE breadth to react, as 100% of the vehicle's steering and braking capacity will be at his disposal. Even if we change the figures and assume the car wasn't designed to ever go its max. speed, and is only safe up to 90 mph, a speed limit of 30 mph is still 1/3 of the maximum speed at which the driver can still safely control the vehicle.

An EUC, at 30 mph, is going its maximum speed, and even the slightest mistake, bump, distraction, etc., can cause a crash, not to mention that braking capacity and control over the wheel at that speed are in no way comparable to that of a car. There's a reason the Barcelona City Council set the speed limit for PEVs to 25 km/h (15 mph) on bike lanes that are on the road-side/away from pedestrians, and 15 km/h (9 mph) on bike lanes that are on the side-walk, where a mishap with a pedestrian is much more likely.

I know, I know, the damage a car can inflict is much greater and all that, but we're talking about EUC safety margins. The car comparison above is simply meant to illustrate that we ride a very different kind of vehicle, with different speed, manoeuvrability, stability and braking characteristics, so speed limits set for cars don't (and shouldn't) really apply to us.

And what's more, when riding near/at top speed, we're knowingly accepting a considerably high probability of having an accident, and by extension, imposing it on anyone in the direct vicinity of where we're riding (people who haven't accepted that risk). Yes, an accident can occur at 20 mph too, and our braking distance and reaction capacity may still be insufficient... which is why we should adapt our speed, at all times, to the particular environment of wherever we're riding, and in my book at least, riding near/at max. speed when there are other people and cars around is a definitive NO-GO: it's pushing the limits of our control over the wheel and wilfully subjecting anyone around us to unnecessary, unfair and easily avoidable risks, or as @Duf put it, "knowingly riding in this manner in an environment that was clearly not safe for doing so"

On 3/20/2019 at 10:22 PM, Marty Backe said:

I've learned to not judge too harshly because when you're in the moment (actually there participating), things are not quite so black & white as they can seem when viewed from afar (sitting in front of a computer screen).  What you see here is a typical EUC group ride amongst high energy enthusiasts. At least it's been my experience with the vast number of California group rides that I've participated in.  I've seen first hand similar group behavior with E-boarders and Onewheeler's.

Maybe other places they are more sedate :confused1:

I have ridden with these exact guys and everyone is responsible, caring, etc. Yes, some people have a higher risk tolerance than others (me) and sometimes suffer the consequences. But they have big passions for EUCs and are living the EUC life to its fullest, IMHO.

I hate to disagree with you, @Marty Backe (I tend to agree with you on most topics), but even if things aren't as black and white as they may seem from the outside, dismissing something that could potentially (black & white, etc.) be considered reckless behaviour (I'm not judging or saying that it is) as "high energy enthusiasm" and "passion for EUCs" isn't as constructive as re-assessing our perspective and risk perception. As you said, it's about risk tolerance, but the question here is...whose? What about the risk tolerance of an innocent bystander who wasn't even aware there was a risk to begin with? I think events like this should be used as an opportunity to reconsider aspects (and possible consequences) of riding that we might not be taking into account, rather than waving it off as "boys will be boys" or "living the EUC life to the fullest".

I know I did after my last fall (thanks, @Mono, for insisting that I do so :)). I was the only casualty of my own mistake, and it was a very low-risk scenario in terms of other people (late at night, deserted streets), but the crash still prompted me to consider that there was still a (very remote) chance of someone else getting hurt, and decide to move my speed-testing to even more remote venues...I don't judge myself or others too harshly for my/their mistakes (live and learn), but I do feel that any post-crash attitude other than "what can be learned from this?" or "Are there any potential risks/consequences of what I'm doing that I may be overlooking?" is somewhat irresponsible (I'm not saying that's your approach :))

We've (luckily) yet to see a any footage of a freak accident where a 50 lb wheel hits a curb, bounces up in the air and smacks a pedestrian on the head (at 40 mph, that's not that improbable, it could happen), so perhaps we're not fully aware of the potential risks of something serious happening. And if not for the sake of others, we'd be wise to take into account the PEV regulations and restrictions that are being implemented around the globe. I personally feel it would be in our own best interest to view crashes and situations like this as a blessing in disguise (no one got hurt and it provides a fantastic learning/mindset-reassessing opportunity) that might contribute to change certain attitudes and prevent THE BIG ONE that makes all the headlines and triggers us to start wondering why we didn't see it coming beforehand... (Clarification: I'm speaking broadly, this isn't directed at anyone in particular)

In any case, we're all guilty of unnecessary risks to one extent or another (the minute we hop on an EUC), so no one's morally above or below anyone else. I'm just glad nothing serious has happened yet, and that we can have healthy and amicable debates and share opposing perspectives for the benefit of the community at large :)

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, travsformation said:

subject of speed and speed limits, I once again have to give it to Smoother: I agree with 100% of what he said: Speed limits are set with cars and motorcycles in mind, not EUCs: a speed limit of 50 km/h / 30 mph is set for a particular environment with the aim of giving cars and M/Cs (based on their braking capacity and drivers' level of control over their vehicle) sufficient reaction time and braking distance to avert an accident. If, say, a car's max. speed is 140 mph, we're talking about a speed limit that is 21% of the vehicle's max. speed. That means that at 30 mph, the driver is in no way pushing the limits of his car and has AMPLE breadth to react, as 100% of the vehicle's steering and braking capacity will be at his disposal. Even if we change the figures and assume the car wasn't designed to ever go its max. speed, and is only safe up to 90 mph, a speed limit of 30 mph is still 1/3 of the maximum speed at which the driver can still safely control the vehicle.

An EUC, at 30 mph, is going its maximum speed, and even the slightest mistake, bump, distraction, etc., can cause a crash, not to mention that braking capacity and control over the wheel at that speed are in no way comparable to that of a car. There's a reason the Barcelona City Council set the speed limit for PEVs to 25 km/h (15 mph) on bike lanes that are on the road-side/away from pedestrians, and 15 km/h (9 mph) on bike lanes that are on the side-walk, where a mishap with a pedestrian is much more likely.

I know, I know, the damage a car can inflict is much greater and all that, but we're talking about EUC safety margins. The car comparison above is simply meant to illustrate that we ride a very different kind of vehicle, with different speed, manoeuvrability, stability and braking characteristics, so speed limits set for cars don't (and shouldn't) really apply to us.

 And what's more, when riding near/at top speed, we're knowingly accepting a considerably high probability of having an accident, and by extension, imposing it on anyone in the direct vicinity of where we're riding (people who haven't accepted that risk). Yes, an accident can occur at 20 mph too, and our braking distance and reaction capacity may still be insufficient... which is why we should adapt our speed, at all times, to the particular environment of wherever we're riding, and in my book at least, riding near/at max. 

😄😄😄 Based on your logic that speed limits are set because of drivers level of control, EUC’s should have a FASTER speed limit than a car. You don’t ever have control of a car, you’re merely giving it inputs and hoping it responds in time. With an EUC you have ultimate control not only because of the fact that you’re controlling acceleration, deceleration, and turning, but also because the footprint is as compact as your body width(because the machine is between your legs). Given how many parts and sensors make up a car, and how those parts can wear, it’s entirely random how the car will react on a given day, unlike an EUC which will always react the same day after day.

Somebody drove my Mercedes like a grandma the other day, and the adaptive transmission adapted to that and when I got the car back it no longer accelerated like it did. I found myself hoping to (legally) pass a car on a two lane road but when I went to press the gas it didn’t respond anywhere near as quick as I’m used to. I ended up having to manually downshift before being hit head on, and take precious extra seconds to pass because my machine (car) didn’t respond how I wanted it to. That won’t happen on an EUC. 

Let me give you another example, this time of braking. I was going 30mph in a 25mph street and all of a sudden the truck in front of me comes to a screeching stop because the idiot in front of him had his turn signal on and decided he didn’t want to actually turn and the truck driver had anticipated a turn and never started breaking (in anticipation of no one being in front of him after the turn). I was on my EUC, and I was able to easily split the lanes and fly past the truck and the idiot car and move in front of them, all without having to brake because of my compact footprint. 

Also, your logic is very flawed about reaction time. It doesn’t matter if you’re pushing 100% of the machines limits or not, 30mph is still 30mph and you have the same amount of time to react whether in a car or on an EUC. A car would likely react much slower because of driver inattentiveness and driver response not being instaneous in a car like it is on an EUC. 

PS: I just love how people keep assuming a standard level of skill that everyone has (which is usually mediocre). There are plenty of talented riders who can easily control their wheels at the 80% + alarm limits. 

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@Darrell Wesh yes, shooting around a vehicle that you can't see around that has suddenly emergency braked because of an emergency in front of them that you cannot see or anticipate, injecting yourself at speed into the unknown emergency situation, is definitely the correct course of action.  Why didn't I think of that? :facepalm:

EDIT: before you react to this post, please note, that Darrell clarifies that he could see around the truck and he could see what was going on in front.  You'll read that in a few moments probably, but I thought you should know that before leaving this post. My impression of a truck was bigger than the reality.

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4 minutes ago, Smoother said:

@Darrell Wesh yes, shooting around a vehicle that you can't see around that has suddenly emergency braked because of an emergency in front of them that you cannot see or anticipate, injecting yourself at speed into the unknown emergency situation, is definitely the correct course of action.  Why didn't I think of that? :facepalm:

Woa woa who said I couldn’t see them?? I did say what happened to cause the truck to brake, which had to mean I saw what was happening in front.

That’s another great thing about EUC’s compared to my low sport suspension Mercedes; I can see over most regular cars and can stick to the shoulder of bigger vehicles so I can see past them as well. The high pedals of my MSX really shine in traffic. 

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