EUC Crash @ 40 MPH (Was: Please wear safety gear)

[eddiemoy]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That is exactly why I always expect a car (or a small child learning on a bicycle) to come out of every side street, yard, corner etc. unless I can confirm 100% that a car, motorbike or a bicycle is not coming. Or a car turning without signaling, or that a parked car’s door may pop open at any time, etc. That’s why I don’t quite understand most ”car blocked me and I was forced to crash” topics on this forum.

I don’t trust my health in other peoples’ hands when I’m in traffic on an EUC. I don’t care the slightest whose fault a crash would be, I’m not going to be in one.

Wow!  You think you can avoid every crash if you anticipate every scenario?   I suppose so, but does that mean you slow down to a crawl at each place you are not sure?  I think that is difficult and not realistic.  I don’t think anyone can see all the situations while riding and there are a lot of experience riders in NYC.  Even those professional delivery cyclist get into accidents. And they can do some sick stuff on their bikes.  

I’ve seen enough crashes to know not all of them can be avoided.  What ever the reason may be.  

[Dan the Man]

I was just wondering how all those promotional videos from South-east Asia fit in here, which you can see all over the Internet. Dozens if not hundreds of people in t-shirts and hot pants and so on happily riding along. I have not been in South East Asia for years but from watching those videos I get the impression EUCs are everywhere and helmets and safety gear are totally unknown.

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That is exactly why I always expect a car (or a small child learning on a bicycle) to come out of every side street, yard, corner etc. unless I can confirm 100% that a car, motorbike or a bicycle is not coming. Or a car turning without signaling, or that a parked car’s door may pop open at any time, etc. That’s why I don’t quite understand most ”car blocked me and I was forced to crash” topics on this forum.

I don’t trust my health in other peoples’ hands when I’m in traffic on an EUC. I don’t care the slightest whose fault a crash would be, I’m not going to be in one.

@eddiemoy Your fear is exactly why I completely distrust crosswalks or sidewalks that have openings for driveways etc. @mrelwood is right, if you’re on a sidewalk that isn’t completely a sidewalk then you MUST always slow and look both ways before going forward on parts cars can turn in to. I rarely ride on the sidewalk or across crosswalks unless there are pedestrians crossing as well (more people more presence). 

In your situation @eddiemoy where the car was turning left and you were going to roll right into it, I would for sure turn left with it, there’s going to be some gap that they create between the curb that you can squeeze in to. I would NOT turn right, into traffic because I wouldn’t have enough time to see if anyone was coming and would rear end me. But I would not rely on braking. Best case scenario is they realize there’s someone in the sidewalk or bike lane and they panic stop and you just turn left with no close calls, worst case scenario you both turn left and you’re eye to eye with the driver hugging the curb and give them the middle finger 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[eddiemoy]

20 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

@eddiemoy Your fear is exactly why I completely distrust crosswalks or sidewalks that have openings for driveways etc. @mrelwood is right, if you’re on a sidewalk that isn’t completely a sidewalk then you MUST always slow and look both ways before going forward on parts cars can turn in to. I rarely ride on the sidewalk or across crosswalks unless there are pedestrians crossing as well (more people more presence). 

In your situation @eddiemoy where the car was turning left and you were going to roll right into it, I would for sure turn left with it, there’s going to be some gap that they create between the curb that you can squeeze in to. I would NOT turn right, into traffic because I wouldn’t have enough time to see if anyone was coming and would rear end me. But I would not rely on braking. Best case scenario is they realize there’s someone in the sidewalk or bike lane and they panic stop and you just turn left with no close calls, worst case scenario you both turn left and you’re eye to eye with the driver hugging the curb and give them the middle finger 

Weird that you and @mrelwood both think you can avoid all accidents.  I’ve driven for close to 30 years with no accidents, I don’t for once think that I’m immune just because I have some system that keeps me safe.  

All this talk I get the feeling both of you have this idea you are immune to accidents   

 

 

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Dan the Man said:

I was just wondering how all those promotional videos from South-east Asia fit in here, which you can see all over the Internet. Dozens if not hundreds of people in t-shirts and hot pants and so on happily riding along. I have not been in South East Asia for years but from watching those videos I get the impression EUCs are everywhere and helmets and safety gear are totally unknown.

This is why we should not form serious impressions about a whole environment from promotional videos. 👍

Edited March 28, 2019 by Lutalo

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Wow!  You think you can avoid every crash if you anticipate every scenario?   I suppose so, but does that mean you slow down to a crawl at each place you are not sure?  I think that is difficult and not realistic.  I don’t think anyone can see all the situations while riding and there are a lot of experience riders in NYC.  Even those professional delivery cyclist get into accidents. And they can do some sick stuff on their bikes.  

I’ve seen enough crashes to know not all of them can be avoided.  What ever the reason may be.  

To your point. In logistics, the drivers that have been involved in collisions get those collisions rated in two ways; avoidable, and unavoidable.

The logistics industry recognizes that even with paranoid scanning for hazards and proactive anticipation there are collisions that are going to happen regardless of what you do to avoid them. 

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I suppose so, but does that mean you slow down to a crawl at each place you are not sure? 

I think this is the correct solution, in the urban environment, because a slower top speed is often no slower timewise to get to a place. For example, during rush hour it took me the same time by car as by bicycle to traverse the ~4.5 miles from home to work (an EUC was significantly faster, 12 vs 20 minutes). Typically one would bicycle leisurely with drivers swooping pass you, then you'd slowly and carefully thread through the cars at the red lights.

Rain sucks, though.

I've timed my traveling on occasion; anywhere between 40-60% is just time spent at a red light, especially if you get a light twice. For a not particularly dense city like St Louis the average speed is just 22 mph, and that's just the moving average. My GPS clock stops at lights, so I'm guessing the average is maybe 18 mph because that's my bicycle average. Typically, about twice a week they'll be collision that just completely screws traffic flow.

Because of the above, I think just having a blanket 20 mph speed limit everywhere in the city would work fine, because you're not really getting anywhere at above 20mph anyway. You could just leisurely drive to the next light without losing any time at all. I have noticed over the past couple of years by not going ten mph over, and just chilling out, my trip time is no better than it used to be, with the added bonus of hardly any close calls.

European Union is going with mandatory smart speed limiters in all new cars and trucks, and I think this is a very good idea, because it takes just one driver going well above the speed limit to crash and block up the street.

AndI think 20 mph is the magical number, because it's fast enough to get you places in the city while greatly reducing damage when drivers hit each other. Even hitting pedestrians and bicyclists at that speed is just likely to piss them off rather than kill them outright.

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Lutalo said:

To your point. In logistics, the drivers that have been involved in collisions get those collisions rated in two ways; avoidable, and unavoidable.

The logistics industry recognizes that even with paranoid scanning for hazards and proactive anticipation there are collisions that are going to happen regardless of what you do to avoid them. 

I guess it's about striking a balance: cautious, but not paranoid (the inevitable factor will always be there), and confident, but not reckless (as in not pushing one's luck and unnecessarily putting one's self at risk in terms of accidents that can be prevented)

 

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Wow!  You think you can avoid every crash if you anticipate every scenario?

To be precise, not every crash, but every crash with another vehicle. ~16000km of riding and not a single close call with other vehicles.

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

  I suppose so, but does that mean you slow down to a crawl at each place you are not sure?

Yes it does.

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

 I think that is difficult and not realistic.

It is the reality for me whenever I ride. I have decided to consider this being less difficult than trying to heal with my condition from getting hit by a car.

An EUC slows down and accelerates with minimal effort, so my risk avoidance just means my trips take a bit longer. Nothing wrong with that.

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I don’t think anyone can see all the situations while riding

What you are perhaps not considering is that the city planning, traffic behavior and even some traffic rules are very different where I live. From what I’ve seen, I surely wouldn’t ride an EUC in NY traffic.

4 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I’ve seen enough crashes to know not all of them can be avoided.  What ever the reason may be.  

I agree. 

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

All this talk I get the feeling both of you have this idea you are immune to accidents

That is you filling in a few blanks that are not there. My level of risk avoidance would be impossible with an EUC in NY traffic, and most other US cities as well I’d imagine. Secondly, when driving a car I can’t slow down for every intersection, so I have to trust that others would play by the book. That alone makes me un-immune (=mune?) to a crash when driving a car.

[eddiemoy]

44 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

To be precise, not every crash, but every crash with another vehicle. ~16000km of riding and not a single close call with other vehicles.

Yes it does.

It is the reality for me whenever I ride. I have decided to consider this being less difficult than trying to heal with my condition from getting hit by a car.

An EUC slows down and accelerates with minimal effort, so my risk avoidance just means my trips take a bit longer. Nothing wrong with that.

What you are perhaps not considering is that the city planning, traffic behavior and even some traffic rules are very different where I live. From what I’ve seen, I surely wouldn’t ride an EUC in NY traffic.

I agree. 

That is you filling in a few blanks that are not there. My level of risk avoidance would be impossible with an EUC in NY traffic, and most other US cities as well I’d imagine. Secondly, when driving a car I can’t slow down for every intersection, so I have to trust that others would play by the book. That alone makes me un-immune (=mune?) to a crash when driving a car.

I imagine you are riding in less populated area?  I guess if you are riding in less populated area I can see how one might think they can avoid all. 

Yes NYC is totally different.  

[Smoother]

You don't have to slow to a crawl for every driveway, you only need to be travelling at a speed low enough for each driveway, that you can take appropriate action if needed.  When in town I always ride on the sidewalk and suburban sidewalks in London have a driveway on average every 50 feet.  If I can see into the driveway and see no danger before I get there, all I have to be certain of is no one is about to turn into the driveway.  A quick look over my shoulder is the only extra step needed.  If my view of the driveway is blocked I approach at an appropriate speed, relative to the situation (not necessarily a crawl) until I am sure I can proceed safely.  This in nothing more than what one should be doing all the time when driving, or riding.  One golden rule of motorcycle riding is "never ride faster than a speed at which you can safely stop in the distance you can see ahead". Riding an EUC should be no different, if you value your health.

Of course, that motorcycle rule doesn't allow for someone suddenly pulling out in front of you without looking. But one can't account for every eventuality. That's what anti lock brakes are for.

[Lutalo]

10 hours ago, travsformation said:

I guess it's about striking a balance: cautious, but not paranoid (the inevitable factor will always be there), and confident, but not reckless (as in not pushing one's luck and unnecessarily putting one's self at risk in terms of accidents that can be prevented)

 

Exactly. Our actions can impact probability so, we should always work to reduce the probability of a collision with the full understanding that our actions have zero impact on the possibility of a collision.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Lutalo

[Dan the Man]

Thanks for all your opinions in this thread. I sold my EUC last year because of perceived risks and hip problems. I am 68. The more I read here, and the hip is much better, the more I tend to get me a EUC again. I just can`t forget it, and more and more I think the fun is worth the risk.

[Nic]

 

[Rehab1]

17 minutes ago, Nic said:

 

Ok....what initiated the wobble and what is the proper way to restore the balance before crashing?

 

[Smoother]

30 minutes ago, Nic said:

 

Starting at 34 seconds.  Wow I've never seen an actual wobble-to crash-event, until now. (hope he was ok). Notice how far the wheel travels and how high it bounces on smooth ground.  Now imagine a public street and a small child's head, or old persons knee caps.  Remember, an old lady was killed in Barcelona by two idiots on a rent escooter doing less speed than this, and anti PLEV laws did and are continuing to descend across the country as a result.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Smoother

[Rehab1]

12 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Starting at 34 seconds.  Wow I've never seen an actual wobble-to crash-event, until now. (hope he was ok). Notice how far the wheel travels and how high it bounces on smooth ground.  Now imagine a public street and a small child's head, or old persons knee caps.  Remember, an old lady was killed in Barcelona by two idiots on a rent escooter doing less speed than this, and anti PLEV laws did and are continuing to descend across the country as a result.

I’ve watched this video over and over again. Nothing out of the ordinary stands out. The pavement appears smooth.

I’ve had many wobbles on the Z but I recovered by shifting the weight to my heels while crouching down. He appeared to lean forward during the start of the wobble which probably exacerbated the situation. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Rehab1

[Smoother]

7 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I’ve watched this video over and over again. Nothing out of the ordinary stands out. The pavement appears smooth.

I’ve had many wobbles on the Z but I recovered by shifting the weight to my heels while crouching down. He appeared to lean forward during the start of the wobble which probably exacerbated the situation. 

For me, it's less about how it happened (although that would be nice to know) and more about, HEY! it does happen, and it's only a matter of time before a speed related crash (not this one because it was on a closed course) injures or kills a by-stander.  Then watch the authorities clamp down where before there was tolerance.

This just in from Dublin, Ireland

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Smoother

[Rehab1]

6 minutes ago, Smoother said:

For me, it's less about how it happened (although that would be nice to know) and more about, HEY! it does happen, and it's only a matter of time before a speed related crash (not this one because it was on a closed course) injures or kills a by-stander.  Then watch the authorities clamp down where before there was tolerance.

This just in from Dublin, Ireland

 

It would be terrible if a pedestrian became seriously injured from an EUC mishap. Unfortunately,  given the odds, it is going to happen someday. 

 @Jean Dublin why are the Dublin police harassing you guys? 

[Smoother]

3 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

It would be terrible if a pedestrian became seriously injured from an EUC mishap. Unfortunately,  given the odds, it is going to happen someday. 

 @Jean Dublin why are the Dublin police harassing you guys? 

I learned to ride in Spain and plan on returning there in my RV with my wheel some day. Cruising for miles along the coast was magical.  But @travsformation s reports, indicate that the environment has changed for the worse since the old lady was killed.  I may be forced to trade my wheel in for an eBike, to explore unmolested

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Ok....what initiated the wobble and what is the proper way to restore the balance before crashing?

 

On a motorcycle, or for that matter high-speed downhill bikes, stiff thick forks and a variable speed steering dampener are used to pass the wobble from wheel to steering head where the wobbles can be dealt with. The variable speed steering dampener is a fairly new invention that is not overly soft at low speeds and not overly stiff at high speeds, with the speed defined as how quickly the steering is moved. Virtually 100% of modern sportbikes come stock with these, and they have entirely eliminated speed wobbles unless you come down from a wheelie with your front wheel cocked.

On an EUC, no such forks and steering dampener can be used, which is why I believe there's a fairly low speed "hard limit" to just how fast you can go before inevitable wobbles occur, regardless of how smooth the pavement and rider are. You can delay the onset of wobbles by putting something heavy far away from the axle, and trying to imitate stiff forks with stiff legs, but that only buys you a bit of time.

In the above case I think leaning back while standing tall is exactly the correct decision, because only by slowing down can you shed the kinetic energy within the wheel, and by standing tall you move the center of mass away from the axle of the wheel. Note that once he bailed (he didn't fall, he bailed), the wheel dramatically increased its wobble, and so that might have been a lost cause as wheels almost always stop wobbling once they shed their rider.

If you crouch but straighten your legs, then you're doing the same thing as him, especially if you're slowing the wheel. Personally, 100% of the times I crouch I have rider induced wobbles.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Ok....what initiated the wobble and what is the proper way to restore the balance before crashing?

 

Did anyone notice that the runaway wheel actually HIT the other guy in front on his Z10? It hit his Z10 I think the wheel of it 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

Starting at 34 seconds.  Wow I've never seen an actual wobble-to crash-event, until now. (hope he was ok). Notice how far the wheel travels and how high it bounces on smooth ground.  Now imagine a public street and a small child's head, or old persons knee caps.  Remember, an old lady was killed in Barcelona by two idiots on a rent escooter doing less speed than this, and anti PLEV laws did and are continuing to descend across the country as a result.

That’s how I crashed my MSX the very first day I got it at 33mph. But I only wobbles because @LanghamP I crouched down really low to see if I could hear the beeps and upon crouching that low it started to wobble and wobbled me off it. 

@Rehab1 he wobbled because he started to clench the wheel while trying to accelerate hard and when it started to first wobble he stiffened his upper body which is a huge no (supposed to be relaxed) which transferred to his lower body squeezing more/stiffening more 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Smoother]

18 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Did anyone notice that the runaway wheel actually HIT the other guy in front on his Z10? It hit his Z10 I think the wheel of it 

Yes I saw that.  Then, before he knew what was going on he made a gesture like "what the fuck man!". But then I guess after he saw the wheel shoot past, the penny dropped.

[Smoother]

17 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s how I crashed my MSX the very first day I got it at 33mph. But I only wobbles because @LanghamP I crouched down really low to see if I could hear the beeps and upon crouching that low it started to wobble and wobbled me off it. 

.  I must admit, I have experienced wobbles with bent legs.  So I try to ride with legs as straight as possible.  Of course that's not desirable or possible in many cases.  Occasionally, with straight legs on a smooth path, there will be a small unseen jolt and WHAM! there go my teeth slamming together, and sometimes I bite my lip too.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Smoother