Changing tires

[Rywokast]

just had to change the tire on my v5f for the first time.. man that sucked, the smaller wheel was way harder to get off than my 16" wheels i think i punched the pedal bracket about five times before i decided to put on gardening gloves lol, few gashes in my hands.. but anyways i noticed the tube was not holding air because it had actually rubbed right down to nothing, like literally i took it out and there was a ton of rubber shavings inside the tire and i could see the slime attempted to heal the holes but it was no match some of them were almost an inch long.. i have never heard of something like this happening, rubbing the tube right down to nothing, especially since ive only had it six months and im very light and ride with high tire pressure. so i cleaned the tire, the rim, the new tube and i added a healthy amount of rubber grease inside of the tire and all over the new inner tube, then slimed it and put it all back together (much easier with the grease btw).

so my questions are 1. does anyone know of some better tools for removing euc tires, because i am using some wal mart plastic bicycle tire levers and i snapped two of them in half.. literally got so pissed at it i put on the grippy gloves and ripped the tire off by hand, but that was extremely difficult and id rather not experience it again.. and 2. does anyone know what in the hell would cause the inner tube to degrade and wear down to nothing so quickly?? i mean, my first guess is that from the factory they just used a really old, dried out tube and it degraded from there with use.. i havent seen this before so i dont think its really a problem to worry about down the road but from now on i will be using the rubber grease to mitigate any chance of that, plus its just good for the rubber will last longer i think.

 

[f0dder1024]

I have a V5F+ and hate changing the tires for the reason you mentioned. This past week for whatever reasons it just clicked.

I kind of owe it to this video although it's for a v8 w/16" wheels:

I used 4 cheap nylon pry tool that came with a patch kit from Fred Meyers (2 tools per kit).

Probably really needed 3. Just slowly worked around. What I got from the video was starting the wheel half in.

And putting the tube in slightly inflated. Normally my tube went in flat.

TL;DR I think it's less the tool and more the technique. I've about 4000 miles on my wheel according to the Darkness bot app.

Third wheel change did the trick. Doubt this will help, but hopefully something clicks for you.

 

 

 

[Smoother]

On 3/15/2019 at 5:45 AM, Rywokast said:

just had to change the tire on my v5f for the first time.. man that sucked, the smaller wheel was way harder to get off than my 16" wheels i think i punched the pedal bracket about five times before i decided to put on gardening gloves lol, few gashes in my hands.. but anyways i noticed the tube was not holding air because it had actually rubbed right down to nothing, like literally i took it out and there was a ton of rubber shavings inside the tire and i could see the slime attempted to heal the holes but it was no match some of them were almost an inch long.. i have never heard of something like this happening, rubbing the tube right down to nothing, especially since ive only had it six months and im very light and ride with high tire pressure. so i cleaned the tire, the rim, the new tube and i added a healthy amount of rubber grease inside of the tire and all over the new inner tube, then slimed it and put it all back together (much easier with the grease btw).

so my questions are 1. does anyone know of some better tools for removing euc tires, because i am using some wal mart plastic bicycle tire levers and i snapped two of them in half.. literally got so pissed at it i put on the grippy gloves and ripped the tire off by hand, but that was extremely difficult and id rather not experience it again.. and 2. does anyone know what in the hell would cause the inner tube to degrade and wear down to nothing so quickly?? i mean, my first guess is that from the factory they just used a really old, dried out tube and it degraded from there with use.. i havent seen this before so i dont think its really a problem to worry about down the road but from now on i will be using the rubber grease to mitigate any chance of that, plus its just good for the rubber will last longer i think.

 

That is worrying.  I've changed EUC tubes/tyres a few times but never seen rubber crumbs like that.  Obviously there is some serious rubbing going on there, but why?

Every properly designed wheel has a shape that incorporates a "drop center" When prying up on the bead on one side, the bead on the other side should be forced to stay in the drop center.  This makes enough room for the bead to pop over the rim without damaging the bead.  If you apply too much force to the bead you can rip the internal structure of the bead (nylon, steel, etc) which can cause the bead to fail.  The bead is the only thing holding the tyre on the rim; its strength is very important.  EUC wheels have a small drop center but it is there and you should use it. 

The guy in the inmotion video has obviously never heard of a drop center.  I love it when people who don't know what they are doing, make videos teaching others how not to do it also.

 

 

No. I don't know what the extra 2 red lines are in the last photo either. Oh yes I do, they represent the tyre cross section as the tyre goes around the back of the rim.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Smoother

[Marty Backe]

I used these during my last tube repair (patch the tube if possible). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M3SJ699/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_Gt2OCbSY4YQ4F

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I used these during my last tube repair (patch the tube if possible). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M3SJ699/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_Gt2OCbSY4YQ4F

those look great, like you have a lot more leverage than the little plastic ones

[Smoother]

Last time I did one (two weeks ago) i used stuff I found in the kitchen; a cheese slicer, a butter knife and a traditional bottle opener  Got the job done though.

I couldn't find my little plastic tyre leavers, BTW mine are actually fiberglass, they don't snap in half just missing you eye as they shoot across the room.

[Rywokast]

7 hours ago, Smoother said:

Last time I did one (two weeks ago) i used stuff I found in the kitchen; a cheese slicer, a butter knife and a traditional bottle opener  Got the job done though.

I couldn't find my little plastic tyre leavers, BTW mine are actually fiberglass, they don't snap in half just missing you eye as they shoot across the room.

oh I remember that haha, first 16" tire change had no tools.. bent about six spoons lol.. yes fiberglass would be nice, I got some new metal reinforced ones from Amazon but I like the long ones marty posted too as you have more leverage, these can be tough if the tire is older or it's the first time changing it

Edited April 2, 2019 by Rywokast

[Smoother]

12 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

bent about six spoons

  If in doubt, raid the kitchen draws.

[OUNCESMUSIC]

Got a flat on my way home a while back (V5F) and been putting off this task because I was gonna buy a new wheel in April and don't really wanna go thru this tedious process for a wheel I won't be riding as much. Planning on buying that special inner tube and a new (tread was non existent) and the new wheel in one shot. Yea,  I've changed the tire once before which is why I'm procrastinating this time. I'll have to change it once I get the new wheel to use as a teaching aid and so I can encourage others to join with me with a wheel to borrow them.

[Rywokast]

7 hours ago, Oswald Valentine-Lopez said:

Got a flat on my way home a while back (V5F) and been putting off this task because I was gonna buy a new wheel in April and don't really wanna go thru this tedious process for a wheel I won't be riding as much. Planning on buying that special inner tube and a new (tread was non existent) and the new wheel in one shot. Yea,  I've changed the tire once before which is why I'm procrastinating this time. I'll have to change it once I get the new wheel to use as a teaching aid and so I can encourage others to join with me with a wheel to borrow them.

yea doing it twice would suck

[Smoother]

13 hours ago, Rywokast said:

yea doing it twice would suck

I've done it twice, twice.

And i've done it when I didn't really need to.  Essentially I've changed five tyres/tubes even though I have only one flat and zero worn out tyres. I have two EUC  (only one functioning) and five perfectly good tyres.. Beat that for inefficiency.

[Rywokast]

4 hours ago, Smoother said:

I've done it twice, twice.

And i've done it when I didn't really need to.  Essentially I've changed five tyres/tubes even though I have only one flat and zero worn out tyres. I have two EUC  (only one functioning) and five perfectly good tyres.. Beat that for inefficiency.

wow haha, nope no one can beat that inefficiency xD

[mrelwood]

15 hours ago, Smoother said:

I have two EUC  (only one functioning) and five perfectly good tyres.. Beat that for inefficiency.

As a consolation, that is also something you learned from me. 

Btw, Smoother’s first post on this thread is spot on, as usual.

I switched my tires around several times on my 16S. Two key things I learned that made a tedious job into near pleasurable one:

1) LUBE!! Lube the edge of the rim and the bead of the tire like there’s no tomorrow. Seriously, it turns a two man job into a breeze. Slimy soapy water is good for this and requires no purchases.

2) Suitable tire irons. I use three 5-6” plastic bicycle ones that have a steel core. The ones Marty linked look serious, but they look long enough to be slightly problematic, at least if the pedal hangers are on the way as on the 16S. And as I am sometimes a bit clumsy, I’d worry about the metal tools leaving too many marks on the rim.

Just remembered, I do have motorcycle tire irons as well. They offered no additional gain, but were too thick, too long, and I scraped my rim with them.

 

On the tire rubbing, my guess is there might’ve been sand between the tube and the tire working it’s way. Even the rim valve hole is ample on most EUCs allowing for an easy passage. My tubes have often been a bit sandy when removed, although I always wipe the rim, the tube, and inside the outer tire with a wet rag before install.

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

As a consolation, that is also something you learned from me. 

Btw, Smoother’s first post on this thread is spot on, as usual.

I switched my tires around several times on my 16S. Two key things I learned that made a tedious job into near pleasurable one:

1) LUBE!! Lube the edge of the rim and the bead of the tire like there’s no tomorrow. Seriously, it turns a two man job into a breeze. Slimy soapy water is good for this and requires no purchases.

2) Suitable tire irons. I use three 5-6” plastic bicycle ones that have a steel core. The ones Marty linked look serious, but they look long enough to be slightly problematic, at least if the pedal hangers are on the way as on the 16S. And as I am sometimes a bit clumsy, I’d worry about the metal tools leaving too many marks on the rim.

Just remembered, I do have motorcycle tire irons as well. They offered no additional gain, but were too thick, too long, and I scraped my rim with them.

 

On the tire rubbing, my guess is there might’ve been sand between the tube and the tire working it’s way. Even the rim valve hole is ample on most EUCs allowing for an easy passage. My tubes have often been a bit sandy when removed, although I always wipe the rim, the tube, and inside the outer tire with a wet rag before install.

lube is absolutely the key lol... i got some rubber grease locally and used it and it made changing the tire laughably easy.. like literally going from breaking things and prying with all my strength on an older tire for a good half hour to being able to pop it off no sweat in one minute lol.. it was like the tire was cemented on when i tried without any lube, but with the grease comes off soooooo easy.. i am still puzzled on just wtf caused the fairly new tube to dissolve like that.. i mean i couldnt see any sand in there, not that ive ever ridden on or near sand ever anyways... very strange, out of six tire/tube changes that ive done, this is the first time ive ever seen like this.. im thinking something abrasive mustve been in there from when they installed it at the factory

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

im thinking something abrasive mustve been in there from when they installed it at the factory

Certainly possible. Or even some rubber-unfriendly grease or other chemical that in time has corroded the rubber.

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Certainly possible. Or even some rubber-unfriendly grease or other chemical that in time has corroded the rubber.

hmm could be could be, because i saw no signs of anything physically rubbing believe me i examined it lol

[Smoother]

LUBE!!! of course how could I forget that? @well spotted @mrelwood. 

Although, @Rywokast you've mentioned rubber grease twice now and I have a concern for you.  Tyre lube, either DIY as @mrelwood mentioned, or as used by professional tyre fitters dries out and  ceases to lube once dry and or squeezed out of the gap between mating surfaces (bead and rim).  Your grease will always be grease and therefore always be lube.

My two concerns are 

1. Your tire, under hard acceleration or braking could spin on the rim, which could cause an unusual effect that might throw you to the ground, OR rip the valve stem out of the tube, causing an instant flat.

2.  Under hard side loading (turning) the bead might slide off the rim.

Personally, I would take that apart and remove the grease, replacing it with something that dries out.  It's not my pace to "tell" you what to do, but, I thought it only right to share my concerns for your safety.

PS I did work for the largest independent tyre retailer in the USA for a while, so I know a bit about tire fitting, just a bit.  I do remember occasionally warning drivers of high performance cars, not to gun it for a few hours after their tyre change just in case the tyre slipped a bit on the freshly lubed rim.

Here's a tyre expert statement about lube.  There are some interesting points here:

• Do: Use non-water based lubricant. Do not use anything water-based because of its potential for future rim corrosion.
• Do: Use vegetable oil soap or animal soap.
• Do: Use commercial lubricants designed for tire mounting. These commercial solutions may offer a rust inhibitor to protect the rim.
• Don’t: Use lubricating solutions inside the tire. The tire must stay clean and dry on the inside. Use caution when applying the lubricant to ensure it only adheres to the outside of the tire.
• Don’t: Use an excessive amount of lubricant on a tire.
• Don’t: Use silicones, anti-freeze or petroleum-based products to lubricate the tire.

https://www.chaliklaw.com/blog/defective-tire-lawyer-lubricate-tire-plus-dos-donts/ (the link)

 

A couple of points here, firstly, the first one () (although it's badly written as a double negative) no water.  So if you have to use dish soap use it neat, don't dilute it. I guess it has water in it but it will dry out quickly.  As an owner of a car with aluminum wheels(not mine from new) with badly corroded rims (always needing to be pumped up) I can see how this becomes a problem (not so much for tubed tyres, but as a general rule to follow)

 

The last point; no silicones or petroleum based products.  Commercial tyre lubes are vegetable oil based, when they dry they actually become grippy.

@Rywokast your red rubber grease IS vegetable oil based, but it is designed as a grease, so it wont dry up in use. Therefore it remains a lubricant when you don't want it to be.  It's great for lubing parts in close proximity to rubber such as brake slider pins inside rubber boots ( I have three tins of it), but not for tyre mounting. You may get away with it, but I personally wouldn't risk it.

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Smoother

[mrelwood]

Great points from a professional above. I learned the generic grease issue with my MiniPro. I used extremely low tire pressures on the knobby tires during winter, and a few times I felt as the rim spinned in the tubeless tire. Luckily no drama followed. But EUCs are a lot more powerful, so grease really is a danger.

From now on I will use the soap undilluted.

[Rywokast]

thanks @smoother for the very detailed breakdown.. im not sure exactly what type of stuff it is that I used but the guy who worked in the tire dept told me it's good for that, I did actually take a tire of that I had used the stuff on previously and it was completely absorbed or evaporated or w/e neither the tire or tube felt slippery at all.. I'll have to check what it actually is im probably using the wrong term

[Smoother]

Just now, Rywokast said:

thanks @smoother for the very detailed breakdown.. im not sure exactly what type of stuff it is that I used but the guy who worked in the tire dept told me it's good for that, I did actually take a tire of that I had used the stuff on previously and it was completely absorbed or evaporated or w/e neither the tire or tube felt slippery at all.. I'll have to check what it actually is im probably using the wrong term

Ah right, that's good to know. So not (red) rubber grease, which is a thing.

You must have used something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Greases-Lubricants/TYRE-MOUNTING-Grease-Red-4Kg/B01N0R61HD

 

For installation Pneumatic grease grease is a special blend of waxes, resins, (Red acrylmed and organic solvents. It is widely used in the tyre mounting centres cars and in Europe. The grease allows for quick and accurate installation of the tire on the rim (rim) - An essential Condition For A Balance Of The Wheels, rim, avoiding damage to the heels for the installation and removal. It ensures a better grip of the tyre on rim of wheel, ensuring it as it prevents corrosion Waterproof Car Red acrylmed is a grease with addition of sealing agent.

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Ah right, that's good to know. So not (red) rubber grease, which is a thing.

You must have used something like this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Greases-Lubricants/TYRE-MOUNTING-Grease-Red-4Kg/B01N0R61HD

 

For installation Pneumatic grease grease is a special blend of waxes, resins, (Red acrylmed and organic solvents. It is widely used in the tyre mounting centres cars and in Europe. The grease allows for quick and accurate installation of the tire on the rim (rim) - An essential Condition For A Balance Of The Wheels, rim, avoiding damage to the heels for the installation and removal. It ensures a better grip of the tyre on rim of wheel, ensuring it as it prevents corrosion Waterproof Car Red acrylmed is a grease with addition of sealing agent.

yea something like that,, it kind of just massaged right in to the rubber, made it look a deep black like brand new material instead of old and worn, but soaked right in doesn't feel greasy in the slightest

[Smoother]

2 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

yea something like that,, it kind of just massaged right in to the rubber, made it look a deep black like brand new material instead of old and worn, but soaked right in doesn't feel greasy in the slightest

I wonder if that quality you described would be good to preserve RV tyres.  RV tyres almost always rot away with sidewall cracks or old age long before the treads wear down due to the ratio of sitting around vs driving. I know of no product that slows down the aging process. Since I recently spent £1,000 on a new set of six, I'm not keen on repeating the process sooner than necessary.

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

I wonder if that quality you described would be good to preserve RV tyres.  RV tyres almost always rot away with sidewall cracks or old age long before the treads wear down due to the ratio of sitting around vs driving. I know of no product that slows down the aging process. Since I recently spent £1,000 on a new set of six, I'm not keen on repeating the process sooner than necessary.

yea i was thinking something similar when i used it as the apparent cause of the blown tube was the fact that it rubbed right down to nothing, was probably old and dry... i checked and its a silicone lubricant that says it protects and preserves rubber

[Smoother]

11 hours ago, Smoother said:

Don’t: Use silicones, anti-freeze or petroleum-based products to lubricate the tire.

 

31 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

its a silicone lubricant that says it protects and preserves rubber

Now how are ever supposed to believe anything companies say on the internet? 

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

 

Now how are ever supposed to believe anything companies say on the internet? 

aha wtf.. i have no idea.. thats what he recommended to me, so well just have to wait and see xD so far so good though feels great, im not worried about slippage or anything like that because like i said before the rubber soaked it right up and went from an extremely dull, chalky colour to a nice deep black and didnt feel slippery or anything just felt like what you would imagine a brand new piece of rubber should