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Kevin Graehl

Open Letter to inmotion, after my 4th full speed faceplant for no good reason

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24 minutes ago, Jerome said:

Maximums are mutually exclusive when looking at PEV specs (not just EUC). That means you can't be near the maximum weight and ride at the maximum speed. You can't climb 30% hills and get anything near maximum range. You can't go up maximum hills at maximum speeds, etc. The above reflects full batteries. It your batteries are less than full than the danger of trying to combine maximums is many times worse

Even more so, if your batteries started at a lower temperature and the ambient temperature is below 5 deg C.

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1 hour ago, caelus said:

I recommend soft mode, does give better feedback of motor torque

It also makes the you LESS capable of surviving sudden bumps, since the wheel will let itself tilt more before applying power. At which point it may well be too late.

 

Edited by mrelwood

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

For the weight, a powerful 16-inch wheel (like the 16X, ACM, etc) would be just fine. But he's tall guy, so I think the 18-inch form factor would fit his body better. And if it was me, I would not ride a wheel with less than 1600wh of energy for pure safety margin reasons.

Yeah, just thinking about my 2nd wheel too, since I'm in much the same boat though I'm not as tall, a more stocky 5'10".  $2100 for a new 18XL isn't in my budget now, having just bought my first $900 one a couple months ago. By the time it might be doable, maybe the 16X would be released and with luck, a bit cheaper due to smaller size, and perhaps a bit lighter and more agile too.

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Hi @Kevin Graehl sorry to hear about the crash(es)! When you feel up to it, jump out to one of our Saturday rides. Happy to let you borrow my MSX to ride so you can "kick the tire" on a wheel more suited to your body type. And daredevil nature, we're still all in awe of that Twin Peaks line you took on your bike a couple of months ago! Dayyum. Heal up and hit me up. Cheers -- Jesse

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

It also makes the you LESS capable of surviving sudden bumps, since the wheel will let itself tilt more before applying power. At which point it may well be too late.

 

Not in my experience.
Especially for bumps, offroad, jumps etc the soft mode gives you more stability and more precise feedback.

Another aspect is that learning on a weaker wheel and checking its limits (e.g. going offroad) makes you more sensitive for overleaning etc

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45 minutes ago, caelus said:

Not in my experience.
Especially for bumps, offroad, jumps etc the soft mode gives you more stability and more precise feedback.

It often does, but those won’t help a low powered wheel to keep up in a bump. Quite the opposite. What are you riding, and what is your weight?

 

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20 hours ago, Kevin Graehl said:

guess i'm asking too much from it..   I didn't know the v8 was considered tiny..   was told it would be a great fit for me..  I told inmotion i plane on riding it hard, dropping stairs etc..  I had nothing to reference it to at the time..   Now i know.. thats what im pissed about..  if they suggested the bigger model.. I would have gotten it!   maybe they have no idea what size 13 shoes 6 foot 5 up in the air pushing 250 will do.   do all their testers weight 160 pounds lol.. 

 

Well now you know. Sorry, you had to have such a negative experience. But. Yes. A big guy like you should be riding a big wheel; KS18XL and MSX. These two wheel's can take everything that 6'5", 250lbs, size 13 shoes can dish out 😉👍

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7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

but those won’t help a low powered wheel to keep up in a bump.

It does very much that!
Main thing is feedback. That the rider gets to know where the limit of the wheel is. And that feedback is given more precise, if you have slightly more angle to work with. 
There are some additional effects. For example, on slippery ground (gravel, snow) you get a more reliable ground contact. Then, if your wheel gets liftet over a bump it does'n as easily over react. etc .
 

Quote

What are you riding, and what is your weight?

I have an Airwheel X8, Gotway MSM3, Msuper V3 and the MSX.
I ride every day, all the years conditions.
My weight is 98 kg.

Edited by caelus

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19 minutes ago, caelus said:

It does very much that!
Main thing is feedback.

I agree with everything you have said about the feedback, grip, and learning the limits. What I meant with my first comment on the subject was that come a sudden bump the rider has no time to prepare for, especially a low powered wheel is more likely to throw you off if it runs on a soft setting. If you have time to prepare, I’d say the most familiar setting is the best.

I rode through the winter with a relatively low powered, 11” tire MiniPro. I had to adjust the hardness at least once for every ride depending on the weather. Slippery ice? Softest setting for best grip. Sinking snow? Hardest setting for best stability. Hardened snow with deep footsteps? Somewhere in between, depending on grip.

Riding on snow that may sink under you at any time, a soft setting was sure to force me to jump off. Skill and experience won’t bear enough meaning when the wheel hesitates and slows down without warning.

Off-roading over groups of 3-4” tall roots on a 16S was so much easier and a lot more stable with the hardest setting. As is crawling slowly over thresholds, small curbs etc.

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16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

especially a low powered wheel is more likely to throw you off if it runs on a soft setting.

Might be riding technique? I try to unload weight over bumps, so that the wheel can overcome it more easily and also that I don't get kicked off. I find it helps a lot to do so in soft mode, since the wheel does not react to quickly. Especially when you lose ground contact (either by jumping or slipping). Because that can lead to quite abrupt and unpredictable behavior.

Quote

Somewhere in between, depending on grip.

I agree but on the other hand confidence in the wheel and consistent behavior is key. Therefor I don't change my settings.
Also the hard setting while going low speed over obstacles (or deep snow, or sand, or steep uphill) can get very demanding for your wheel and may lead to overheat or even hardware failure. Getting off in such situations might be reasonable.

Edited by caelus

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I faceplanted yesterday for the very first time. I'm size 12 shoes and around 180 lbs. Accelerated my V8 in the flat, at around 20 km/h it cutted out without any beep (or I didn't hear it). I think it was my fault, but I'm surprised how fast it can go. Didn't try to accelerate very fast. Luckily I had safetygear on me, so nothing happened. 

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Temperature and state of charge please.

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5 minutes ago, pico said:

Temperature and state of charge please.

Around 10°c and almost full battery. The wheel is 2 1/2 month old and I had zero problems but I noticed that it says once in a while 4/5 while charging and the charger indicates green light.

Edited by Mossi

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I invite you to read entirely the thread "things that manufacturers don't tell you"

Consider that at this temperature your 480wh is probably behaving like 320Wh which is marginal at that speed and that weight...

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Oh another thing. Your cells may be not fully balanced. Even after the green light, leave it two more hours. Do this every 5 to 10 charge cycles.

 

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1 hour ago, Mossi said:

I faceplanted yesterday for the very first time. I'm size 12 shoes and around 180 lbs. Accelerated my V8 in the flat, at around 20 km/h it cutted out without any beep (or I didn't hear it). I think it was my fault, but I'm surprised how fast it can go. Didn't try to accelerate very fast. Luckily I had safetygear on me, so nothing happened. 

Very suspicious, that the Wheel has one or two bad cells …..Cutting out without any Beep means a totaly drop of voltage, and that the BMS protections jumped in.

Not uncommon on the V8....I personnaly would not ride this Wheel anymore. Also that the Wheel has allready not charged up to full is a sign of the Wheel having defect cells.

Balancing only starts when the cells are totally full...so that is probably not the case (alone).

 

As you are from Germany...i would give the Wheel to inspection-control to 1radwerkstatt.de!!! Dangerous to drive a EUC with defect cells.

 

Kannst mich auch gerne per PM anschreiben :-) 

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Yes I heared that 4/5 bars while the charger indicates green can mean one dead cell but I've seen that there are a few V8 riders that have noticed that. I still think it was my fault since I had no issues until yesterday and I'm getting consistent 25 km out of it on hilly terrain. I still trust the wheel, I'll just pay more attention not accelerating too hard. If I get another cutout I'll give it to 1radwerkstatt. I made good experience with their costumer service.

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@Kevin Graehl  The original question about why these cut-outs occurred has already been answered, and I agree with what's been said. I also own a V8, and weight 78 kg / 172 lb, and had a few cut-outs at/near maximum speed, on flat ground, due to bumps / bumpy terrain. I'm under the max. AND recommended weight, but the close you are to max. speed, the closer your anti-cut-out safety margin is to zero. That's why I upgraded to a KS 18XL...so I could ride faster, push the wheel harder, and still have enough safety margin to prevent face plants.

With the V8, I'm afraid you don't have much of a choice than to ride VERY gently and not push it at all, or, as others have mentioned, upgrade to a powerful 18" and keep the V8 for small, slow-speed errands/commutes or as a learner wheel for friends/family members (or sell it...)

As to someone taking responsibility for having sold you "the wrong wheel", I think that, even if they're nice folks, your local distributor (Last Mile SF) is at much at fault as Inmotion USA. Even if it was IM who assessed you on the wheel, they're the ones who sold it to you, despite the fact that your weight is above the wheel's max. In my book, retailers should know the specs of the product they sell and are in the wrong if they sell you something whose maximum weight capacity you exceed.

I'm not saying "let them take the fall", but I do think it would be the right thing for them to do to accept part of the responsibility to mediate or work WITH you, in your dealings with IM USA, to help you get that upgrade, or whatever solution you are willing to settle for, so it's not you, alone, against the manufacturer. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mossi said:

Yes I heared that 4/5 bars while the charger indicates green can mean one dead cell but I've seen that there are a few V8 riders that have noticed that. I still think it was my fault since I had no issues until yesterday and I'm getting consistent 25 km out of it on hilly terrain. I still trust the wheel, I'll just pay more attention not accelerating too hard. If I get another cutout I'll give it to 1radwerkstatt. I made good experience with their costumer service. 

Yeah, please pay Attention...

I dont know what  should have been your fault with 20kmh and on a flat road, and all signs like charging, unexspected cutout etc etc are clear signs of dead/defect cells.

Most important: If so-> It will happen again!!! So take care of yourself!

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after the 2nd time (when i wasnt pushing it) i kept telling myself it could never happen again..   then the 3rd time   then the 4th time..    IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.  US69 is right.    Wear gear!  or get a bigger one..   

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I already own a 18 XL. I think the cutout was due to accelerating too hard. I bought the wheel from Amazon knowing that this could happen. If it happens again I won't ride it anymore. But until then I will be more careful. 

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4 hours ago, travsformation said:

I also own a V8, and weight 78 kg / 172 lb, and had a few cut-outs at/near maximum speed, on flat ground, due to bumps / bumpy terrain. I'm under the max. AND recommended weight, but the close you are to max. speed, the closer your anti-cut-out safety margin is to zero.

Same here but with 10 kg less on the scales. Also hit the street at near top speed when going over some uneven surfaces. I bought a more powerful wheel.

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2 hours ago, Mossi said:

I already own a 18 XL. I think the cutout was due to accelerating too hard. I bought the wheel from Amazon knowing that this could happen. If it happens again I won't ride it anymore. But until then I will be more careful. 

it’s great your purchased from amazon!

 

I would take advantage of their excellent customer service and explain the situation to them. They are extremely understanding 

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10 hours ago, Kevin Graehl said:

 

Are you allowed to do this?

In my country this is illegal.

 

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