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For safety and awareness: You can absolutely extinguish lithium battery fires!!  

The battery usually contains such small amounts of lithium metal, during the failure that cause fire, the lithium has already burned out and added water does not have lithium metal to react with.

Myth-busted: You do not "need" a class D copper extinguisher, since the battery usually burns out the lithium quickly, what is left is plastic and other things that have caught fire, and water is excellent at cooling and dousing the flames.

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A small Li-ion fire can be handled like any other combustible fire. For best result use a foam extinguisher, CO2, ABC dry chemical, powdered graphite, copper powder or soda (sodium carbonate). 
FAA instructs flight attendants to use water or soda pop. Water-based products are most readily available and are appropriate since Li-ion contains very little lithium metal that reacts with water. Water also cools the adjacent area and prevents the fire from spreading. Research laboratories and factories also use water to extinguish Li-ion battery fires.

 

I have seen the FAA test videos: You will notice simple water is used with high effect.  Link below, also other lipo fires in charging containers.

 

 

 

 

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It is mainly because lithium fire ≠ li-ion battery fire..

Only if you make it one Don't forget we are dealing with batteries encased in round cells, not your average quadcopter pouch LiPos. I'm in the "fpv" community, and the euc community, and LiPo fir

For safety and awareness: You can absolutely extinguish lithium battery fires!!   The battery usually contains such small amounts of lithium metal, during the failure that cause fire, the lithium

I just have a smoke alarm and never leave batteries charging while I'm away/sleeping. From what I know, water can be used to extinguish the battery fire, but it doesn't work by depriving the fire of oxygen, but by cooling the cells under the critical temperature (something like 125-150 Celsius?) so that the "thermal runaway" -chain reaction stops. So anything like fire blankets or even a fire extinguisher might be useless, as they work by "suffocating" the fire. I guess I'd either dump it somewhere where it can safely burn out (outside, because of the toxic fumes and on a non-flammable surface) if possible, submerge it or just pour water on it until it hopefully stops re-igniting. Of course if it would start to look like the fire can't be controlled, it'd be time to evacuate everyone else and my own ass outside  ;) 

I witnessed the house opposite to ours burn down two years ago, it was about 10 minutes from the first flickers I saw to over 1-meter flames coming out under the roof and windows blowing out. Electrical fire from the mains cabinet.

YlSBxIU.jpg

Edited by esaj
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22 hours ago, Leyline said:

For safety and awareness: You can absolutely extinguish lithium battery fires!!  

The battery usually contains such small amounts of lithium metal, during the failure that cause fire, the lithium has already burned out and added water does not have lithium metal to react with.

Myth-busted: You do not "need" a class D copper extinguisher, since the battery usually burns out the lithium quickly, what is left is plastic and other things that have caught fire, and water is excellent at cooling and dousing the flames.

I have seen the FAA test videos: You will notice simple water is used with high effect.  Link below, also other lipo fires in charging containers.

 

 

 

so... are you saying my proposed plan at the top of this thread is still doable??

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  • 2 weeks later...

In the Netherlands they dumped a burning hybrid car in a water tank for 24 hours to extinguish it.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/26/firefighters-dropped-smoldering-bmw-i8-water-tank/

On 3/11/2019 at 4:59 PM, egress123 said:

I was thinking about getting a metal cabinet, store and charge my EUC in it, and have a fire extinguisher that is activated by fire

Maybe your original idea is viable when you design your metal cabinet to act as a water tank.

You make a watertight box with an open top (to avoid pressure build up in case of a fire, aka a bomb). Build a water storage tank that goes above it and put a hole in the bottom for a sprinkler head. Preferably a sprinkler head that has a removable diffuser shield so that the water ends up in the box and not everywhere else. Also, make sure you have a good short circuit protection for obvious reasons.

So yes, it is possible to build a fire proof charging station for your euc that will even prevent it to reignite. This is just my perspective and I am not responsible for any damage what so ever if anyone tries this out. To be honest I think the risk of an EUC battery fire is greatly exaggerated (you are probably more likely to get killed in a traffic accident while using your EUC than by charging it). But it could be a good idea for an euc rental company or any other company that charges high capacity lithium batteries on a regular basis.

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If you have a new wheel that has never been seriously crashed or messed with the chances of it's battery spontaneously combusting is extremely small to nil.

Now if it's some knock off or a refurb then the chances can go up quite a bit, even more so if it's then crashed.

Li-ion fires are very weird because they are self-fueling, love room temp or above water, and require special classes of extinguishers. Plus there is Magneisum alloys on most wheels and their pedals and magnesium will horrendously ignite once it reaches a very high temperature in presence of enough oxygen or carbon dioxide. But temps from Lithium fires can't really reach that flash point.

You could do some weird zany things like have a bin inside another bin. The outer bin filled with a salt ice bath or dry ice. Both would serve a dual purpose or keeping the temp too low to cause catastrophic ignition and would dampen any fire that started by killing the flames and causing a very slow reaction with any remaining Lithium that would keep it from igniting above it's flash point.

There haven't been many experiments or case studies with multi cell high grade batteries like what are in most reputable EUCs nowadays (closest things are Tesla batteries which many people have tested). Mostly because there haven't been any cases I'm aware of concerning factory EUCs exploding, these types of Li-Ion batteries have been used for a long time in multiple industries without problems. On the other hand LiPO packs are far more susceptible because of the unsafe way all the components are arranged inside, everything is so close and the surface areas is maximized. This gives better chemistry and power-to-weight ratios but also allows for catastrophic failure should there be a puncture, overcharge, or disturbance.

Edited by tenofnine
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In construction steel is actually one of the least fire resistant material you can use. Gypsum boards is the cheapest and most readily available material, if you want, you can get a cabinet and line the inside with wall boards.

You'll still need someway to notify you that something is wrong since very few things are rated against sustained burning for more than 2 hours.

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  • 1 year later...

After seeing some posts here and on ig of exploding eucs (this being the latest)

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ0BfkQjiVK/?igshid=4bnzyh4lae1l

 

Im growing a little paranoid. I live in an apartment and this would obviously be a nightmare. I noticed in some of kujis videos (feel free to drop a link. I was too lazy to scroll around) he has a safe in his apartment for eucs. I presume its for this reason. Would love to get some info/your opinions on this. Anyone have one? Anyone know the model hes using? Is this a practical/good idea? Alternatively anyone know how to contact him to ask?

Edited by RagingGrandpa
(now merged with earlier thread on the same topic)
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Commercial cabinets for storing flammable materials are widely available but are not inexpensive and are primarily intended for storing flammable liquid so there's a relatively tall lip at the bottom to keep the paint/solvent/gas you were storing from leaking out (a good thing, given their intended use). You might watch for places that are going out of business. For making one yourself, I'd peek at a liner made from refractory brick (lightweight) or cement board (heavy but cheap) or check out heat shields for wood stoves. McGiver solutions are of course, untested. And don't forget to heat shield the floor of the cabinet.

Edited by Tawpie
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4 hours ago, Azazel said:

After seeing some posts here and on ig of exploding eucs (this being the latest)

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ0BfkQjiVK/?igshid=4bnzyh4lae1l

 

Im growing a little paranoid. I live in an apartment and this would obviously be a nightmare. I noticed in some of kujis videos (feel free to drop a link. I was too lazy to scroll around) he has a safe in his apartment for eucs. I presume its for this reason. Would love to get some info/your opinions on this. Anyone have one? Anyone know the model hes using? Is this a practical/good idea? Alternatively anyone know how to contact him to ask?

Wow that is wild! thanks for the vid!

I would be concerned that the enclosure in the OP post would make a bomb as others have pointed out, and the metal would be shrapnel.  Venting off gases would be key as others have noted.

Lithium Ion Battery fires are considered a Class B fire as others have pointed out. 

"So, what kind of fire extinguisher should you use in this scenario? Lithium-ion batteries are considered a Class B fire, so a standard ABC or BC dry chemical fire extinguisher should be used. Class B is the classification given to flammable liquids. Lithium-ion batteries contain liquid electrolytes that provide a conductive pathway, so the batteries receive a B fire classification."

source:

https://resources.impactfireservices.com/how-do-you-put-out-lithium-ion-battery-fire

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26 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Please consider this post as public disclosure of a design ;)

Love your thought process although many owners would probably jump in to save their burning wheels. :)

50825805478_576d89b682_b.jpg

 

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I just like to add a 2cent to this. This incident was precented to me when getting fire warden training during my time as a teamleader in a UK call centre. 

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2010/05/11/bradford-city-stadium-fire-disaster-25-years/

I recall seeing it on the news but I were not reflecting much about it at the time when it happend. 

From first smoke was visual to the point you see in this picture it took only 1m30ish sec. 

Spoiler

bradford-fire-disaster.jpg

Like you can read about in the link many people died mostly because they never released how much heat a fire generate. 

This is something you really need to know about if you are trying to extinction a fire. regarding a battery fire the big problem it is self fueling and it do not need oxygen to burn as it is provided by the chemicals. 

Spoiler

this video is not for faint hearted. Really it is very bad. When I saw it, I couldn't help crying. It made a huge impression on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8BCcUjJ4w

That is why I only share it as a link. And you need to verify with adult account on YouTube too. This is for a reason.

 

 You really need to think about this happened in an open arena. In a closed room the heat cannot escape. It only builds up making any gas self ignite given enough time. 

That said we all live with risk of fire every day. But the danger is so easy to miss out on, so please keep this in mind if a fire alarm goes off. Make sure you can get out of the area/room before doing anything else. 

Edited by Unventor
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On 10/20/2018 at 4:45 AM, Beowolve said:

Hi all,

since some wheels did go up in flames (inmotion v10f for example), I decided to load and store my wheel inside a metall box in the future.
Besides the extra safety, the box I choose should look nice so my wife accepts it as well ;).

It turned out, that finding the right size wasn't that easy, eventually I found the optimal box for my 9bs2.
The box doesn't look too bad and has enough extra space for all my euc utils and the charging device.

Enders  Aluminiumbox VANCOUVER 123 l
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00JBZP442/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_xvUYBbM3907CK

Has enyone done this allready and maybe found a better alternativ?
We could collect all candidates here to have a nice list of boxes suitable for different wheel sizes.

 

I could see condensation collecting inside. It needs to have some vents

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17 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I just like to add a 2cent to this. This incident was precented to me when getting fire warden training during my time as a teamleader in a UK call centre. 

https://worldsoccertalk.com/2010/05/11/bradford-city-stadium-fire-disaster-25-years/

I recall seeing it on the news but I were not reflecting much about it at the time when it happend. 

From first smoke was visual to the point you see in this picture it took only 1m30ish sec. 

  Reveal hidden contents

bradford-fire-disaster.jpg

Like you can read about in the link many people died mostly because they never released how much heat a fire generate. 

This is something you really need to know about if you are trying to extinction a fire. regarding a battery fire the big problem it is self fueling and it do not need oxygen to burn as it is provided by the chemicals. 

  Reveal hidden contents

this video is not for faint hearted. Really it is very bad. When I saw it, I couldn't help crying. It made a huge impression on me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8BCcUjJ4w

That is why I only share it as a link. And you need to verify with adult account on YouTube too. This is for a reason.

 

 You really need to think about this happened in an open arena. In a closed room the heat cannot escape. It only builds up making any gas self ignite given enough time. 

That said we all live with risk of fire every day. But the danger is so easy to miss out on, so please keep this in mind if a fire alarm goes off. Make sure you can get out of the area/room before doing anything else. 

The Triangle Shirtwaist factory in NYC was a horrific fire that killed close to 200, business owners locked the seamstresses in. Many Jumped. NYC has the toughest fire codes in the world now. The Building is now part of NYU.

 

If you are to use such a storage box, keep it away from the windows or exits, you need to be able to get out.  I padlock mine to my Garage door and Keep a tarp over it to keep it dry. Fire Extinguisher Nearby. The Extinguisher is for the Garage door.

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On 21/10/2018 at 5:46 PM, Alex_from_NZ said:

 

If you wanted to get really fancy, you could put the box in an area it can drain without causing water damage. Then run a plastic hose through the box connected to a tap left turned on. If a fire happens it will melt the hose and fill the box with water automatically.. ?

Which will leave you with a flooded space instead. Besides water does not put out lithium fires. You need special kind of extigusher for that (expensive ones).

The best middle option (lesd expensive) is a powder ABC extinguisher.

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5 hours ago, Boogieman said:

You need special kind of extigusher

No.

Please read the earlier posts, which were well supported...

On 3/11/2019 at 4:03 PM, Leyline said:

For safety and awareness: You can absolutely extinguish lithium battery fires!!  

You do not "need" a class D copper extinguisher, since the battery usually burns out the lithium quickly, what is left is plastic and other things that have caught fire, and water is excellent at cooling and dousing the flames.

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Battery university mentions a new AVD? extinguisher that's good on battery fires. Class D extinguishers are super specialized and not something you'll probably ever see, in a prior life we did consider buying some because we had tens of thousands of Li primary (non-rechargable) cells in our stores and in the Engineering labs they were abused to the point of rapid disassembly. But in the end we decided that having numerous massive ABC extinguishers was sufficient to reduce the risk of a battery fire catching the building on fire to an acceptable level. The building had a to-code sprinkler system as well.

Edited by Tawpie
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Maybe someone should make a EUC charging station insulated with Starlite

May withstand burn from EUC, properties of the easily made putty is that high heat causes the material  to burn and turn to carbon, bubbling up insulating the protected contents from heat.  Would be fun to test!

 

 

 

Edited by Rich Sam
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1 hour ago, Mr Dilkington said:

Seems like there is so much conflicting information out there....

It is mainly because lithium fire ≠ li-ion battery fire..

Edited by null
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56 minutes ago, Mr Dilkington said:

Seems like there is so much conflicting information out there....

Yes, I quoted one website saying that standard ABC extinguishers should be used, and found several others with the same claim.

Then I found heavy hitter websites that state it is a class D fire and copper D extinguishers should be used. I tend to lean more twords D as FAA.Gov and BatteryUniversity.com backs this classification.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, null said:

It is mainly because lithium fire ≠ li-ion battery fire..

It is mainly because lithium fire ≠ li-ion battery fire..

I think you hit the nail on the head!

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Someone also pointed out: HVAC ductwork can be a practical source of modular steel box sections for creating an EUC container.

But beware smoke damage- a 'metal box' that prevents a fire from spreading will still release a massive volume of black smoke into your house, causing severe damage to your home... to be effective at minimizing damage from an unattended fire, it would need to be sealed and vented to the exterior in a similar way to a clothes dryer or fireplace.

southwark_td962410_article_1386942262907_en_normal?defaultImage=ECM_No_Image&wid=1600&hei=1600&fit=constrain,0&

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What about something like this fireproof cabinet? It doesn't solve the venting to the exterior issue, but it looks like it'd give some time to gather your wits before your house goes up in flames. It is "vented", so with a little bit of engineering one might be able to vent to the outside.

bwrwuphsv_1843518.jpg

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