KS18XL feels weird (tilting back at slow speed)

[MacPara]

So I took my new 18XL for a quick test ride and I almost jumped off. It gave me the weirdest ride experience I've ever had. This is for FW 1.11, speed alarms disabled except for #3 at 37kmh and tiltback set 40kmh and set to expert (hard).  Getting on feels fine but as soon as I get to a fast walking speed the wheel seems to lean back into me like I am approaching tiltback. If I ignore this and accelerate it does so and slowly but suddenly removes that tiltback and rather leans forward too much which makes me feel that it lets me actually slowly fall forward. This is a very odd feedback that I don't have with my KS14S or the ACM2 and also did not at all experience when a friend let me ride his 18XL 2 weeks ago.  I should add that at that test ride opportunity, I just stepped off my ACM2 during a group ride and hopped on the 18xl and rode on. No trial or anything. Back then the 18xl just felt better, not wonky or anything. 

Is this some setting that I misinterpreted? Anybody else experience this? 

Edited March 9, 2019 by MacPara

[Rywokast]

i would re-calibrate it and see how it feels.. strange, i never had this sensation on mine at all absolutely solid as a rock from 0-tiltback.. actually due to my weight and the stiffness of the pedals i nearly leaned right tf off of it a couple times when riding it the first time haha

[Unventor]

I had similar experience with my Inmotion V8. It felt as standing on a surfboard paddling out to sea over waves.

I could calibrate the V8 with the Inmotion app, and the it was fine.

To me it lookst to be alittle different proces on how to calibrate a KS18L, but I never tried that.

[Rywokast]

20 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I had similar experience with my Inmotion V8. It felt as standing on a surfboard paddling out to sea over waves.

I could calibrate the V8 with the Inmotion app, and the it was fine.

To me it lookst to be alittle different proces on how to calibrate a KS18L, but I never tried that.

its very easy, the app will tell you how to do it.. i usually put my new euc's on one of my stands and calibrate it in air so its perfectly level

[Smoother]

Was the percentage of charge 100%, and were you riding down hill?

[Mono]

There is no speed limiter on KingSong wheels for the first X miles of riding?

 

[MacPara]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

Was the percentage of charge 100%, and were you riding down hill?

It was low on battery, didn't have patience to wait. I just inflated tire to 37 psi and gave it whirl @ around 50% battery. It was rather a flat but bit uneven surface. 

[MacPara]

8 minutes ago, Mono said:

There is no speed limiter on KingSong wheels for the first X miles of riding?

 

Yeah, I had heard about that but it let me set whatever in the app (after approving all the warning crap). Not sure if the wheel just ignores it but I wasn't going at limit speeds anyway. This whole wobbly thing was going on at walking speeds and slightly above but probably less than 12mph. I wouldn't try going faster with the wheel behaving so oddly.

Edited March 9, 2019 by MacPara

[Smoother]

6 minutes ago, MacPara said:

It was low on battery, didn't have patience to wait. I just inflated tire to 37 psi and gave it whirl @ around 50% battery. It was rather a flat but bit uneven surface. 

Well, then I have no idea what you experienced.  I was thinking overcharge tilt, as this tilts both ways, but levels out if you ride aggressively (uses electricity).

[RockyTop]

When switching from my MSX to the XL I get the same feeling. The word I used was " Wonky" or tipsy. I get used to it quickly though. You kinda learn the timing of the movements and use them to your advantage. 

I think most people are completely blind to the XL's strange dips and bobs. (conditioning? .... )

Also, if you hit a bump too hard and the wheel can not compensate, the pedals will lose ground and point down in the front. They will slowly move back to the level position. 

[Smoother]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

I think most people are completely blind to the XL's strange dips and bobs. (conditioning? .... )

No wheel should have strange dips and bobs.  We all have a strange "bob" but I digress.

I own two King Pongs and the only time strange dips are present are when I calibrated the pedals without making sure the wheel was 100% vertical in the left/right plane.  Is it possible you owners of dippy 18l/xl need to re calibrate as already suggested above by @Rywokast?

Edited March 9, 2019 by Smoother

[RockyTop]

2 minutes ago, Smoother said:

No wheel should have strange dips and bobs.  We all have a strange "bob" but I digress.

I own two King Pongs and the only time strange dips are present are when I calibrated the pedals without making sure the wheel was 100% vertical in the left/right plane.  Is it possible you owners of dippy 18l/xl need to re calibrate as already suggested above?

The MSX and some other GotWay wheels have pedals that are like concrete. They don't dip, ever, at all. When you get used to this and switch to any other wheel  you can feel the pedal dip, They dip when you accelerate. They dip when you turn. They get crazy "wonky" when you start one movement and quickly switch to another. 

Here is a funny video of a Tesla rider trying to cope with this strange unexpected moment.  start at 13:45. He has no idea what is happening. In reality the wheel is helping you lean. 

 

[Smoother]

Why did you make me watch that? I've never heard so many contradictory statements in one sentence, ever!  Sentence after sentence.  

I ride my Ks's in all three modes and most of the time I know which mode I am in.  But even when I forget, Not only can I figure it out by rocking the wheel a bit as a ride, but, and this is important, none of the modes makes me feel like anything being described in the video.  Even mode 2, the softest mode is mild and predictable in its application.

When My wheels have been calibrated wrongly, strange things start to happen.  In the video, they change riding mode AND re-calibrate at the same time.  I thought every male over 14 years of age knows to diagnose a problem you only change one variable at a time.  And, if a wheel will stand up by leaning against something it is by definition not vertical.  So they calibrated incorrectly, again.  Now I'm really glad I did't watch all 37 minutes of this video when it showed up in another thread.

Back to the point.  I think that wheel needs to be properly calibrated by someone who knows what he is doing.

Surely, if this was a design flaw in the 18 series, we would be hearing more about it.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Smoother

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

They dip when you accelerate. They dip when you turn. They get crazy "wonky" when you start one movement and quickly switch to another. 

All this sounds strikingly familiar to incorrect calibration.  My 16S doesn't exhibit any of these conditions when correctly calibrated. I personally discovered the problem almost 2 years ago, and people here explained what was wrong way back then.  This is a known condition, but it is not normal.

If you ever get on a wheel doing crazy pedal movements of its own...re-calibrate properly.

[RockyTop]

4 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Why did you make me watch that? 

When switching from a GotWay Tesla to a L or XL the ride response can be unnerving 

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, RockyTop said:

When switching from a GotWay Tesla to a L or XL the ride response can be unnerving 

But what he is describing is a fault, not a normal riding condition.

[RockyTop]

1 minute ago, Smoother said:

  My 16S doesn't exhibit any of these conditions when correctly calibrated

If you are not used to a GW MSX or Tesla you would never notice the dips. They are what you are used to. When people ride the MSX for the first time they don't like it, It won't go, you have to lean  too hard. 

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, RockyTop said:

If you are not used to a GW MSX or Tesla you would never notice the dips. They are what you are used to. When people ride the MSX for the first time they don't like it, It won't go, you have to lean  too hard. 

I'll have to hook up with a group ride in London to experience this phenomenon.  Now where did I put my stab vest?

[RockyTop]

1 minute ago, Smoother said:

I'll have to hook up with a group ride in London to experience this phenomenon.  Now where did I put my stab vest?

I have some chainmail left over from my last highland festival that you can borrow.  

I don't notice the dip as much on the 16s, 

My point is that the wheels have a very different feel. Knowing what the guy in the video is going threw, I thought it was funny. He thought the wheel was messed up when it just responds differently.  

The MSX is concrete - does not dip. The 18L and XL kinda drives for you. once you get used to it ,it is a beautiful thing. Coming from a MSX it can be scary because you are not ready for the give in the pedal. You lose confidence in the wheel because you think you are going to fall on your face. Once you do get used to it, you hardly notice it anymore. 

Going the other way, from XL to MSX, the MSX feels non responsive,  It won't go! You really have to lean hard. 

[MacPara]

Thanks to @Rywokast!

I recalibrated this morning and the wheel felt good on the patio so I took her for a short spin. Turned out to be a 26 mile ride because I had so much fun I just didn't want it to end! Needless to say that the weird tiltback stuff was gone and the wheel felt rock solid. Now, I also played around with setting my alarms and other settings from Wheellog last night to get my setup ready for a potential ride this morning and I didn't try the wheel again  until after the recalibration. So one of the two things fixed whatever was off with it. I'd bet my money on the recal, if I had to 

I know this is off topic but, man, did I enjoy the ride this morning. I think this KS18XL is by far my most favorite wheel for now. Oh, and after that ride it showed 78% of battery left. How freaking cool is that? LOVE IT!

[MacPara]

44 minutes ago, Smoother said:

All this sounds strikingly familiar to incorrect calibration.  My 16S doesn't exhibit any of these conditions when correctly calibrated. I personally discovered the problem almost 2 years ago, and people here explained what was wrong way back then.  This is a known condition, but it is not normal.

If you ever get on a wheel doing crazy pedal movements of its own...re-calibrate properly.

That was the other behavior I noticed and forgot to mention. When I walked the wheel and did a tight turn I could feel it was leaning forward during the turn and then coming back after it. Glad I didn't experience that while on it. So, yes, the recalibration seem to have removed all of this wonkiness right away. My KS14S never behaved that way out of the box and is rock solid, just like my ACM2 is which never needed recal yet. So, I guess I just learned something new. 

[Smoother]

6 minutes ago, MacPara said:

When I walked the wheel and did a tight turn I could feel it was leaning forward during the turn and then coming back after it

Yep this is the classic description of King Song calibration issues.  My 14c did this 2 years ago and the forum helped me figure it out.  What you described in the original post, I did not recognize, but others did, so that's good.

So @MacPara to clarify, after correctly re-calibrating all the weird behavior is gone, yes?

Edited March 9, 2019 by Smoother

[Smoother]

17 hours ago, MacPara said:

also did not at all experience when a friend let me ride his 18XL 2 weeks ago. 

I just read the first post again, and the above was the last line, so clearly, wonky behavior is not normal for a KS18.

@RockyTop  might want to consider doing a proper re-calibration on your 18L/XL you.  Nothing you described makes sense on a properly calibrated king Song as shown by the above quote and @MacPara s recent two posts.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Smoother

[MacPara]

22 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Yep this is the classic description of King Song calibration issues.  My 14c did this 2 years ago and the forum helped me figure it out.  What you described in the original post, I did not recognize, but others did, so that's good.

So @MacPara to clarify, after correctly re-calibrating all the weird behavior is gone, yes?

Oh, yeah, absolutely gone. I'd never had gone on a longer ride with this surfboard feeling. The recal also was very easy to do. I put the wheel on two 2x4s under each side  paddle mount, plugged the charger in so the wheel would listen on BT but not really be in ride mode. Triggered the recal through the latest (not all so bad (on Android))  KS app after using a water level to ensure it was reasonably well leveled in all dimensions and it just did it. Beeping 5 times during the process and then issuing an annoying long beep. I disconnected the charger, took the wheel off the 2x4s and powered it up and tested it. I could tell right away that it now felt like my other wheels.

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by MacPara

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, MacPara said:

Oh, yeah, absolutely gone. I'd never had gone on a longer ride with this surfboard feeling. The recal also was very easy to do. I put the wheel on two 2x4s under each side  paddle mount, plugged the charger in so the wheel would listen on BT but not really be in ride mode. Triggered the recal through the latest (not all so bad (on Android))  KS app after using a water level to ensure it was reasonably well leveled in all dimensions and it just did it. Beeping 5 times during the process and then issuing an annoying long beep. I disconnected the charger, took the wheel off the 2x4s and powered it up and tested it. I could tell right away that it felt like my other wheels.

 

Fantastic. Your joy and relief is evidenced by your immediate and impromptu 26 mile ride.  I have never ridden 26 miles and my wheel is fine!

I'm out of ups today, but i'll try to come back here tomorrow.