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MSuper X speed alarm setting

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Mike that's a brilliant explanation thank you so much. Makes total sense.

The issue was that I thought it was EITHER a speed OR current alarm, and didn't know it was speed/current combined (although after yesterday I suspected it might be).

The red herring which threw me is that I couldn't explain why I was getting 5 beeps during the lift test (at the speed I expected) but hit beeps at 30mph when riding (which didn't make sense if all I had was a speed alarm).

I also thought that 80% battery would be more than enough to allow me to hit near top speeds (about 34mph @ 80%) without any current issues on flat ground but it appears not.

I hear you re the 'relatively' big 20% buffer though. I guess experienced riders like yourself know how to work with that and push it a bit further, taking into account wind/surface/rider weight but I think at my stage I will just err on caution and back off as soon as I hear the beeps. Now that I understand how they are delivered I can work with that as I progress into the future.

As you saying, hearing them is the problem. I had no idea they were going off - a rider near me told me. It was only after his notification that I did another run and just about heard them myself, but obviously I was expecting them too.

I really need to try and find a solution to make the buzzer louder. I simply cant trust myself to hear it at the moment and with all other warnings turned off this is far from ideal. I did try one of the aftermarket buzzers that a guy used on this forum in another thread but I found it quieter than the stock one!

Thanks again, and to Hansolo too :thumbup:

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1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Mike that's a brilliant explanation thank you so much. Makes total sense.

Thank you!

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

The issue was that I thought it was EITHER a speed OR current alarm, and didn't know it was speed/current combined (although after yesterday I suspected it might be).

The red herring which threw me is that I couldn't explain why I was getting 5 beeps during the lift test (at the speed I expected) but hit beeps at 30mph when riding (which didn't make sense if all I had was a speed alarm).

I also thought that 80% battery would be more than enough to allow me to hit near top speeds (about 34mph @ 80%) without any current issues on flat ground but it appears not.

I agree! If we are lucky we get 34mph no beeps at fully charged battery.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I hear you re the 'relatively' big 20% buffer though. I guess experienced riders like yourself know how to work with that and push it a bit further, taking into account wind/surface/rider weight but I think at my stage I will just err on caution and back off as soon as I hear the beeps. Now that I understand how they are delivered I can work with that as I progress into the future.

Exactly this is why in many of my clips I have mocked the MSX and said "I thought it was supposed to be faster than the 18XL. Doing calculations and negotiation with oneself at 50kmh to get to 55kmh isn't really my idea of "faster". Our universe says that nothing is free though so we can ignore the beeps and push to 60kmh and even a bit beyond that. But what a risk we are taking...

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

As you saying, hearing them is the problem. I had no idea they were going off - a rider near me told me. It was only after his notification that I did another run and just about heard them myself, but obviously I was expecting them too.

Haha! That is the biggest problem! 16X and Tesla are much much louder. So I am riding at 50kmh and the turn my head to the side to minimise wind noise and see if I can hear the beeps. I might as well set Darknessbot bot at 55kmh and battery alarm at 50%.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I really need to try and find a solution to make the buzzer louder. I simply cant trust myself to hear it at the moment and with all other warnings turned off this is far from ideal. I did try one of the aftermarket buzzers that a guy used on this forum in another thread but I found it quieter than the stock one!

Thanks again, and to Hansolo too :thumbup:

Agreed! In traffic, with a helmet, etc... forget it! We will never hear it.
And riding at ~42kmh with 50% battery and pushing hard into acceleration against 8m/s wind turns into this (timestamp to relevant part) 29:05:

 

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Cheers Mike,

So yes, in an ideal world, in ideal conditions, with all the stars aligned, one might just get 34~36mph/55~58kmh out of an MSX 84v with 100% battery without beeps. In the real world however this seems extremely unlikely.

I like your 'calculations and negotiations with oneself' explanation! It is seeming more and more clear to me that this is actually a max 30~33mph wheel (even in good conditions) if one wants to avoid beeps.

I wonder why the Tesla is louder? I would have thought it used the same buzzer (saving money for Gotway!) but if not, maybe it would be worth trying one.

In the meantime I am going to lower my wheelog alarms as neither of them triggered at the speed I had the beeps. I had set the 100% to 35mph/56kmh and 50% to 32mph/51.5kmh. It seems the reality is that I will never trigger the alarms before the wheel goes off. Maybe I will lower to 32mph/51.5kmh and 29mph/46.5kmh.

The video is.....umm....'educational' for sure! One to commit to memory I think :)

 

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13 hours ago, Planemo said:

Did we get any further with a definitive answer to the Gotway '80%' alarm?

Any given motor has a maximum speed (no torque speed) that only depends on the voltage supplied to it. At a certain fixed percentage (dare we assume it is 80%?) of this max speed, the "80% alarm" beeps appear.

So it is purely a speed alarm, with the beep speed falling as the voltage (= battery charge) drops. For the MSX 84V, it's 58kph at 100% battery, going down to 45kph at 10% battery. (In addition and independently, at 15% the low-battery beeps start.)

Current plays no role.

See here, straight from the horse's mouth.

Edited by meepmeepmayer
wrong number

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Just as another data point, Rockwheel GT16 also has these "80% beeps", and these beeps are not controlled by Rockwheel app or Wheellog. It beeps when starting hard from standstill or going up very steep hill. These beeps have nothing to do with speed or battery level. Since Rockwheel and Gotway were one company (Gotway boss left RW and started his own company), Gotway firmware evolution started from the same code base as Rockwheel, so they probably still share the same philosophy - 80% load beeps, giving the user all the power that hardware can produce, no FW updates (no need - "it just works"), etc.

My guess is that these 80% beeps on Gotway and Rockwheel hoverwheels simply indicate 80%+ PWM level, you have less than 20% margin left.

Edited by Aneta

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Cannot dig up the source now where I got that info about GW/RW split. But if it's of any indication, GT16 uses Gotway BMS:

Also, battery on Mten3 is made of the same 10s2p blocks connected in series, just like on each side of GT16. There's definitely more GW-RW connection than GW-KS.

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9 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Current plays no role.

Oh gawd If that's the case it goes against what Mike and Hansolo have said and I am back to square 1 :(

If it's purely voltage dependent then it would suggest I have an issue with my batts/wheel, as I must be getting serious voltage drop at higher speeds, much more than I would expect with an 84v 1859wh pack.

With my (albeit minor) testing I did on the day, I was getting around 33/34mph lift speed until the beeps started, and 30mph when riding on a flat surface with little headwind.

I had seen the Gotway speed chart before, which is why I initially thought it was just a speed/voltage alarm as you say. It was my recent results that prompted me to ask the question because to get 3rd alarm beeps at 30mph would suggest I was hitting an equivalent battery level of 30%. Not a drop I would expect when resting voltage was 75~80%.

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9 hours ago, Aneta said:

Also, battery on Mten3 is made of the same 10s2p blocks connected in series, just like on each side of GT16. There's definitely more GW-RW connection than GW-KS.

Really? So what you'll say if I'll tell you that Rockwheel GT16 uses King Song communication protocol?

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3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Oh gawd If that's the case it goes against what Mike and Hansolo have said and I am back to square 1 :(

If it's purely voltage dependent then it would suggest I have an issue with my batts/wheel, as I must be getting serious voltage drop at higher speeds, much more than I would expect with an 84v 1859wh pack.

With my (albeit minor) testing I did on the day, I was getting around 33/34mph lift speed until the beeps started, and 30mph when riding on a flat surface with little headwind.

I had seen the Gotway speed chart before, which is why I initially thought it was just a speed/voltage alarm as you say. It was my recent results that prompted me to ask the question because to get 3rd alarm beeps at 30mph would suggest I was hitting an equivalent battery level of 30%. Not a drop I would expect when resting voltage was 75~80%.

Haha exactly. That's why I wrote the way I did and said that we have answered this question here in the forum in different ways.
The theoretical explanation and the real life explanation. Because the beeps are there.
At full battery I will get beeps at around 53kmh. Same for my friend riders or maybe a bit earlier because they are heavier.
Same for Tesla riders.

I am very very acquainted with the speed reduction thread and I have read through most of this forum because I have no life and wheel is life.

So we either listen to the beeps and respect them or we ignore them because of a theoretical max value that doesn't coincide with what we are experiencing. :lol:
Check out U-Stride he is pushing the 84v MSX to 60kmh but that's a lot of beeping going on (that we can barely hear).

I can drop up to to 20% battery if I ride at above 50kmh. It will recover once I stop but it still uses a chunk to go that fast.
Same goes for Nikola 100V and 16X that I have been on at high speeds.

You could let the wheel beep and set your alarm at 55kmh as long as your are over 50% battery. That way your max speed will be 55kmh.
Or you could set it 50kmh and have it blazing and then the wheel will silently beep at 52-54kmh. :laughbounce2:

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1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Haha exactly. That's why I wrote the way I did and said that we have answered this question here in the forum in different ways.
The theoretical explanation and the real life explanation. Because the beeps are there.
At full battery I will get beeps at around 53kmh. Same for my friend riders or maybe a bit earlier because they are heavier.
Same for Tesla riders.

I am very very acquainted with the speed reduction thread and I have read through most of this forum because I have no life and wheel is life.

So we either listen to the beeps and respect them or we ignore them because of a theoretical max value that doesn't coincide with what we are experiencing. :lol:
Check out U-Stride he is pushing the 84v MSX to 60kmh but that's a lot of beeping going on (that we can barely hear).

I can drop up to to 20% battery if I ride at above 50kmh. It will recover once I stop but it still uses a chunk to go that fast.
Same goes for Nikola 100V and 16X that I have been on at high speeds.

You could let the wheel beep and set your alarm at 55kmh as long as your are over 50% battery. That way your max speed will be 55kmh.
Or you could set it 50kmh and have it blazing and then the wheel will silently beep at 52-54kmh. :laughbounce2:

Well I was going to try and multiquote various bits of your reply Mike but I can't get it to work. I read that you just hit 'enter' at the end of the text you want to quote but all that does is add my text into your text. Oh well.

So tbh I think I am now more confused than ever. The GW alarm either uses current readings as part of it's triggering or it doesn't. I am struggling to see why this has caused such confusion!

If it doesn't, and it is purely speed against voltage, then the only answer I can come up with it that the battery sagged enough at high speed to trigger it waaay before I expected. Whether the amount of sag is 'normal' on my wheel is the unknown.

Your quote regarding friends having beeps @ 53kmh or even earlier on a full battery makes me feel a little better about my wheel though. I assumed it was a 58kmh wheel at 100% and although I knew that was the lift speed alarm, I had not for one minute thought that the battery would sag enough to seriously reduce that down to 53kmh or less. From what you are saying, the 84v MSX is never going to be more than a 33mph/53kmh wheel (before beeps).

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3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Well I was going to try and multiquote various bits of your reply Mike but I can't get it to work. I read that you just hit 'enter' at the end of the text you want to quote but all that does is add my text into your text. Oh well.

You have to press enter twice. :smartass:

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

So tbh I think I am now more confused than ever. The GW alarm either uses current readings as part of it's triggering or it doesn't. I am struggling to see why this has caused such confusion!

If it doesn't, and it is purely speed against voltage, then the only answer I can come up with it that the battery sagged enough at high speed to trigger it waaay before I expected. Whether the amount of sag is 'normal' on my wheel is the unknown.

Your quote regarding friends having beeps @ 53kmh or even earlier on a full battery makes me feel a little better about my wheel though. I assumed it was a 58kmh wheel at 100% and although I knew that was the lift speed alarm, I had not for one minute thought that the battery would sag enough to seriously reduce that down to 53kmh or less. From what you are saying, the 84v MSX is never going to be more than a 33mph/53kmh wheel (before beeps).

Petra rides a Tesla. She weighs 55kg. According to the speed reduction thread it is rated at 50kmh / 5 beeps. She gets beeps at 47kmh when freshly charged.
She has hit 50.1 kmh once and that was a few days ago. She is riding the beeps more and more lately.

But... those numbers on the speed reduction thread might be relevant for the wheel being on a treadmill. :clap3:

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1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

You have to press enter twice. :smartass:

Yay it works, cheers!

Quote

According to the speed reduction thread it is rated at 50kmh / 5 beeps. She gets beeps at 47kmh when freshly charged.

I see. So the whole Gotway advertised top speed thing is a bit of a fib really isnt it?! Unless you fancy taking your chances with the beeps.

Quote

But... those numbers on the speed reduction thread might be relevant for the wheel being on a treadmill. :clap3:

Hit the nail on the head there! A totally unrealistic scenario.

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4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The battery voltage sags and fluctuates a lot while riding. This is normal, and every battery does that.

No kidding. Its the amount of 'lot' which I was surprised at! Especially the amount of sag seen on even a fully charged battery. It suggests to me that the batts on even the latest models aren't man enough for our needs. To see reductions at the levels we are seeing isn't, imo, right.

I do hear and understand you on the huge power requirements that our wheels need. Up until now I just thought that the also huge, powerful batteries on modern wheels could, by and large, keep up. Unless doing stupid things of course. But keeping just below the beeps and still seeing a 30~40% voltage drop (these aren't spikes either) is far from what I would call 'well engineered'. I also hear you that all wheels will be similar, its simply that I had never monitored or therefore witnessed voltage drops on my V5F or Z10. I just rode them and respected the 28mph advertised max of the Z, which it would do quite happily, without alarms or beeps with a full battery.

Quote

GW also still doesn’t report the battery current, only motor phase current, which is pointless for the alarms or rider’s data logs. Yet it’s all the firmware is able to report. I seriously don’t think the firmware even measures the actual battery current. The MSX is a raw but very narrowminded bare bones wheel, down to the firmware. The behaviour of the firmware also feels extremely simple in all situations. Unlike the KS fw 2.0 for example, which I can easily feel taking the environmental conditions and riding situations in account.

Understood. I knew the FW in Gotways was basic. But I did assume that the wheel was capable of achieving its advertised max speed without warnings, which it isnt.

It is what it is. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it but everyones help has been enlightening to say the least and I thank you all for that.

Bring on the day when we are running 8p or 10p packs. Anything to reduce the horrendous sag we are currently seeing.

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Rockwheel uses Kingsong communication protocol, or Kingsong uses Rockwheel protocol? That is the question. It would be interesting to know exact early history of hoverwheel manufacturers, who was first, who left whom and who stole what from whom and when.

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38 minutes ago, Planemo said:

No kidding. Its the amount of 'lot' which I was surprised at! Especially the amount of sag seen on even a fully charged battery. It suggests to me that the batts on even the latest models aren't man enough for our needs. To see reductions at the levels we are seeing isn't, imo, right.

I do hear and understand you on the huge power requirements that our wheels need. Up until now I just thought that the also huge, powerful batteries on modern wheels could, by and large, keep up. Unless doing stupid things of course. But keeping just below the beeps and still seeing a 30~40% voltage drop (these aren't spikes either) is far from what I would call 'well engineered'. I also hear you that all wheels will be similar, its simply that I had never monitored or therefore witnessed voltage drops on my V5F or Z10. I just rode them and respected the 28mph advertised max of the Z, which it would do quite happily, without alarms or beeps with a full battery.

Understood. I knew the FW in Gotways was basic. But I did assume that the wheel was capable of achieving its advertised max speed without warnings, which it isnt.

It is what it is. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it but everyones help has been enlightening to say the least and I thank you all for that.

Bring on the day when we are running 8p or 10p packs. Anything to reduce the horrendous sag we are currently seeing.

Then you can imagine how I feel about the 4p configurations on the 100v wheels.

Well let's see how long it takes for you to hit 60kmh on the MSX.
My fastest is 56.
My friend Thomas fastest is 58.
But these are not cruising speeds.. these are speeds we touch for a second.

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Well I hit 54.5kmh/33.9mph already without a clue the beeps were going! I thought everything was fine as it was fully charged, flat, smooth surface and little headwind.

I am going to find a solution for a louder beep. I did try hooking up my JBL Flip 5 to EUC World voice alarms and it works very well. Plenty loud enough even at speed but I think I would much prefer relying on the GW 3rd alarm algorithm.

Piezo buzzers are hugely directional and further they don't transmit well through barriers due to the high frequency. So the stock setup sucks badly. I am either going to try making up a small shroud to direct the sound up from my externally mounted buzzer, or simply stick a buzzer to the top of the wheel, facing upwards. The buzzers themselves are very, very loud when pointed at your face. As a quick and rough test yesterday, I simply cupped my hand around my external buzzer whilst standing above the wheel to direct the sound upwards and it made a HUGE difference. 

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1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Well I hit 54.5kmh/33.9mph already without a clue the beeps were going! I thought everything was fine as it was fully charged, flat, smooth surface and little headwind.

I am going to find a solution for a louder beep. I did try hooking up my JBL Flip 5 to EUC World voice alarms and it works very well. Plenty loud enough even at speed but I think I would much prefer relying on the GW 3rd alarm algorithm.

Piezo buzzers are hugely directional and further they don't transmit well through barriers due to the high frequency. So the stock setup sucks badly. I am either going to try making up a small shroud to direct the sound up from my externally mounted buzzer, or simply stick a buzzer to the top of the wheel, facing upwards. The buzzers themselves are very, very loud when pointed at your face. As a quick and rough test yesterday, I simply cupped my hand around my external buzzer whilst standing above the wheel to direct the sound upwards and it made a HUGE difference. 

Everything is fine though! That's exactly the way the wheel works.
Damn you're a fast rider though...

I have my Darknessbot alarm set to 50kmh on the MSX and then somewhere there or after the beeps will come depending on variables. So my alarm at 50kmh is my awareness buffer. BEEP BEEP BEEP okay soon the beeps will come.... beep beep beep... or I do not hear them but then I still know I am doing above 50kmh so if I want Darknessbot to shut up I slow down. I could raise it a bit to 55kmh but then I would even need a low battery alarm because I would feel less comfortable doing 55kmh at 40% battery.

My Bose speaker is very close to me on my backpack so I can have the volume quite low.
In this clip I also mention that the battery dropped from 100% to 86%. I am 1.5km from here.
The 100% is only there for the first few meters though... it is better to say that the starting point is 95% battery. 

Let me know how the buzzer fix goes!

 

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26 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Everything is fine though! That's exactly the way the wheel works.
Damn you're a fast rider though...

I have my Darknessbot alarm set to 50kmh on the MSX and then somewhere there or after the beeps will come depending on variables. So my alarm at 50kmh is my awareness buffer. BEEP BEEP BEEP okay soon the beeps will come.... beep beep beep... or I do not hear them but then I still know I am doing above 50kmh so if I want Darknessbot to shut up I slow down. I could raise it a bit to 55kmh but then I would even need a low battery alarm because I would feel less comfortable doing 55kmh at 40% battery.

Let me know how the buzzer fix goes!

Well I wouldn't say I'm fast compared to a lot of riders, but my primary riding buddy rides a 100v MSX and he maxes it everywhere so I guess it kinda rubs off on me. He knows the wheel like the back of his hand and the wheel is certainly a part of him. He's quick but he knows exactly where the limits are and boy does he ride to them. He will hit 40mph/64kmh on a regular basis and peak it to 42/43mph. He's a light guy though and reads surfaces well.

I have already brought down my Wheel log alarms to give me an awareness buffer but tbh I may turn them off completely if I find a 100% foolproof solution for the MSX buzzer. Reason being that the MSX alarm seems to be the best algorithm whereas the wheel log one probably needs to be set lower than it needs to be as it doesn't have the constantly variable voltage input (there are only 3 battery settings for the alarms - I have mine at 100%, 50% and 20%). So for example I could be at 55% battery but the speed alarm will still be set at the same speed as the 100% alarm.

When I get home I will watch your vid, cheers :)

When I get the buzzer mod done I might just start a new thread, probably quite handy for others rather than getting lost in this one.

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8 hours ago, Planemo said:

Well I wouldn't say I'm fast compared to a lot of riders, but my primary riding buddy rides a 100v MSX and he maxes it everywhere so I guess it kinda rubs off on me. He knows the wheel like the back of his hand and the wheel is certainly a part of him. He's quick but he knows exactly where the limits are and boy does he ride to them. He will hit 40mph/64kmh on a regular basis and peak it to 42/43mph. He's a light guy though and reads surfaces well.

I have already brought down my Wheel log alarms to give me an awareness buffer but tbh I may turn them off completely if I find a 100% foolproof solution for the MSX buzzer. Reason being that the MSX alarm seems to be the best algorithm whereas the wheel log one probably needs to be set lower than it needs to be as it doesn't have the constantly variable voltage input (there are only 3 battery settings for the alarms - I have mine at 100%, 50% and 20%). So for example I could be at 55% battery but the speed alarm will still be set at the same speed as the 100% alarm.

When I get home I will watch your vid, cheers :)

When I get the buzzer mod done I might just start a new thread, probably quite handy for others rather than getting lost in this one.

If you are riding with a 100v rider he is going to make you sweat a bit haha.
The 100V MSX is rated to 69kmh / 5 beeps according to the speed reduction thread / horse's mouth, etc. :w00t2:

I agree that the built in alarm is the best algorithm so that would definitely be the best fix.

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17 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

If you are riding with a 100v rider he is going to make you sweat a bit haha.
The 100V MSX is rated to 69kmh / 5 beeps according to the speed reduction thread / horse's mouth, etc. :w00t2:

I agree that the built in alarm is the best algorithm so that would definitely be the best fix.

Well, I don't know about making me sweat but I do need to be careful about not getting complacent and simply trying to follow his rear light :o

His best is a recorded 45.8mph/73.7kmh on wheel log, in summer, slight tailwind, slight downhill.

Bigger kahunas than me for sure.

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