Mono Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Yesterday I was about to enter the Thalys (the Belgium high speed train) when the conductor asked me whether my EUC had batteries and whether these batteries were disconnected? I answered yes (it has batteries) and no (they are not disconnected) and then he got distracted with another passenger. When he came back to me, he had apparently decided to switch to small talk, about how difficult it must be to ride an EUC etc and didn't get back to the battery topic. Nevertheless, now I am slightly worried what restrictions the future will bring about getting EUCs on (high speed) trains. I would be really sad if I couldn't bring my beloved wheel in the train anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 There are rules about what you can and can't bring on the Thalys. https://www.thalys.com/sites/thalys.com/files/2018-06/restrict_items_en.pdf No words about batteries, so he can't kick you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 2 hours ago, ir_fuel said: [...] No words about batteries, so he can't kick you out. Thanks for the link, I also couldn't find any specific rule, but then there is this simple generic rule in the end and it is even written in bold: If the Train Manager considers a piece of luggage to present a risk to the safety of the train and/or to impact the comfort of the travellers, he/she has the right to refuse the luggage... So, I guess it is safe to assume that he can refuse the wheel if he considers a large battery to be a fire risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 What does he know about the battery capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 I don't know what he knows and I don't think it really matters in the end. If he considers the luggage a risk (say, because it could have a large battery which could start burning) it is a sufficient reason that he can keep it out. From a probabilistic viewpoint, the chance that this kind of device has a larger battery is much larger than the chance that a large battery catches fire, so from this viewpoint the uncertainty about battery size shouldn't be relevant in the decision making unless he can be sure that the device doesn't have a battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 Considering the amount of energy that is packed into large EUC battery packs and the abuse from falling and weather elements they receive, I wonder if it’s prudent not to take them on public transport. Just imagine if that pack for whatever reason shorts out and cascades into a self-fueling explosive fire... A packed train of women, children, elderly, etc would be in serious trouble. We’ve seen reports of some InMotion (and Ninebot E+’s) catching fire. What would and could you do if faced with a wheel starting to spark, arc, and smoulder in an enclosed public space? Now just imagine a terrorist who wants to cause havoc by intentionally setting off an easily obtainable battery pack. I wish there were firewalled storage compartments where potentially hazardous items could be stored separately from the passenger compartment. Imagine you and your family heading out for holidays on a plane trip. If they allowed EUCs on board, imagine one accidentally and unpredicatably starting to smoke in an overhead bin at 10,000 feet up filling the cabin with acrid smoke and fire... On one hand I’m biased towards free travel with EUCs, but on the other hand there are always those what-ifs that must be considered. Would you be able to deal with possibly being the cause of other people’s deaths or injuries? Imagine the class action lawsuits from the family members and the overall impact on EUC riders in general. I think until the technology matures to the point of absolute safety, keeping EUCs away from enclosed public transport may be wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 12 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Imagine you and your family heading out for holidays on a plane trip. If they allowed EUCs on board, imagine one accidentally and unpredicatably starting to smoke in an overhead bin at 10,000 feet up filling the cabin with acrid smoke and fire... For planes this has already been regulated and rightfully so, for the reasons you state. All lithium batteries must go in the overhead compartments and not in the cargo (I suppose so the crew can react when something happens), you are limited to a max mAh and your batteries need to be discharged to a certain %. I'm pretty sure that nearly any EUC is above this mAh limit. 12 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: On one hand I’m biased towards free travel with EUCs, but on the other hand there are always those what-ifs that must be considered. Would you be able to deal with possibly being the cause of other people’s deaths or injuries? A train can be stopped, so can a bus, subway and tram. With a plane it's a lot more complicated I think the chance of people getting fatally injured by your flaming wheel is extremely small on train etc. Now the question is who will pay for all the damages and delays .... 12 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Imagine the class action lawsuits from the family members and the overall impact on EUC riders in general. I think until the technology matures to the point of absolute safety, keeping EUCs away from enclosed public transport may be wise. I'm afraid this will not change until we go from LiPo or Li-ion to another technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 10, 2019 Author Share Posted March 10, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 12:14 AM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Would you be able to deal with possibly being the cause of other people’s deaths or injuries? @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, I like the fear mongering... just kidding. Anyone sitting in the driver seat of a car risks other people's life to a (much?) greater extent than someone taking EUCs into trains. That's just a non-starter as an argument. I understand to not allow large batteries on airplanes. It's unfortunate to not be able to take my EUC on flights, but it's an understandable policy to prevent a large burning battery in an airplane by all means, despite the low probabilities. I can't really make my head around the same policy for trains. For one, what is your argument to allow EUCs in residential buildings but not in trains? What's the argument to allow Teslas on ships? My feeling is that you need to make many weird decision if you want to consistently ban EUCs from trains, but it's just a guess. A funny related thing I learned recently: apparently, in The Netherlands, EUCs and hoverboards (and I assume ebikes as well, not sure) are in effect banned from houses, because the insurances reject coverage in case of a fire. Well, of course I assume people still have them, but something just seems to be dead wrong in this setup. After all, nothing is without risk, so it is all about taking only reasonable risks and rejecting the unreasonable ones. My hunch is that a baggage fire in a train is more often than not just a footnote in the history books and hardly worth mentioning apart from a few 100k of damages. Now if the probability is about 1 in a million that would be a cost equivalent of less than 1 buck per travel. It's so incredible hard to estimate small probabilities and get it right. But then again, isn't the much more pressing question all these wheels sitting and charging in residential buildings, much more so than those taken into the train? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 35 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I wish there were firewalled storage compartments where potentially hazardous items could be stored separately from the passenger compartment. Or a UL approved lipo fireproof container large enough to house an EUC. On my last flight in October I housed each drone battery in lipo fireproof cases. Even with that measure of safety I was still ordered to place tape over the terminals of each battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 I’m not trying to spread public fear, but rather encourage people to think about the possibilities of those rare and unlikely events that cannot be predicted. I know the chances are small, but when there are many other lives that could be impacted, it would be irresponsible not to consider the possibilities. People have soldered in additional batteries to increase range. When those wheel crash, what is the likelihood of something shorting out in the future? We’ve all see the InMotion problems dealing with water ingress and their battery packs as well as one person showing how their older Ninebot burst into flames out of the blue. It just takes a few incidents going wrong to put a negative light on the sport. Just look at the hoverboard. I guess there is comfort in thinking that the odds of that 2000 wh battery pack going supernova are infinitesimally small so it should be fine, but the consequences when something goes wrong likely still should be considered. Stopping a crowded train going 80 kph full of people with a large battery starting to explode likely would not end as well as one would hope just like trying to emergency land a plane in time. A bus might be okay, but one going 100 kph on a busy freeway? Maybe the odds are low enough not to even bother thinking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 You are still avoiding the elephant in the room: the EUCs and hoverboards in residential buildings. The simple conclusion is of course that only electrically certified machines and batteries packs should be allowed to be sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I think in single detached dwelling homes, it's up to the homeowner if they are willing to accept the risks. In a large apartment building where there are many families, I think there is more reason not to take a risk. Certification certainly is a good idea, but it still likely doesn't prevent the unexpected events that can occur from riding damage, water ingress, heat stresses on wiring, etc. Private pilots are allowed to take EUCs up with them in their private planes. That risk is on them. In a confined, crowded area with more than two or three people (commercial plane, bus, train, concert, sports event, etc) you have to factor in the consequences of something going wrong affecting other people's lives. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Unless you're Mr. Spock and Captain Kirk. Luckily it seems that EUC fires only mainly related to charging the battery pack, and people usually don't charge their rides during transport. Whether it be a EUC, hoverboard, Dualtron Thunder, etc, anything with a huge LiOn battery pack likely is better not charged or transported through confined public spaces unless there are safety measures available (eg. special fire containment compartment/enclosure, etc). Take for example, TNT or C4 plastic explosive. Should I be allowed to carry a bag full of it onto a crowded bus next to my reliable Chinese made electronic timer? I need to bring down an old apartment building since I'm a demolitions expert. I have it all wired up to explode in my bag, but it's super safe as long as I haven't activated the timing mechanism. The likelihood of anything going wrong is super slim. Maybe I should be allowed to take it onto a train to get to my destination? Sure we carry around laptop and phones which have lithium ion batteries in them, but the amount of energy they store compared to 1000 Wh+ battery packs likely don't compare in terms of maximum damage an explosion would create. Even still, one cell in an e-cigarette can be quite dangerous. It's just my opinion of course so I might be wrong in my thinking. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2016/Self-Balancing-Scooters-Hoverboards-Recalled-by-10-Firms/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Private pilots are allowed to take EUCs up with them in their private planes. Yep doing that next week. 6 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Take for example, TNT or C4 plastic explosive. Should I be allowed to carry a bag full of it onto a crowded bus next to my reliable Chinese made electronic timer? I I trust you Hunka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gon2fast Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 From time to time I am denied entry on my local mass transit system when I have a wheel with me, bus line to be specific. I have thought of the impact of a lipo fire on a moving bus full of people, scary indeed. I thought about this for a while, but it still sits firm with me that the chances of the driver veering off the road or getting into some type of MVA is considerably higher than my wheel spontaneously combusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 19, 2019 Author Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 3/15/2019 at 11:19 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I think in single detached dwelling homes, it's up to the homeowner if they are willing to accept the risks. [...] Private pilots are allowed to take EUCs up with them in their private planes. That risk is on them. I don't quite follow. A private plane can't possibly crash into a single detached dwelling home not owned by the pilot? I also don't get how not thinking of residential buildings circumvents the elephant in the room, but that's probably just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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