15 Mile One Way - V10F vs KS18XL

[Energon5]

Hello!

I'm an absolute beginner looking to get into EUC's. However, I'm in a fairly cold state, and a decently long one way commute. Currently I ride and ebike when I can, but this can be inhibitive due to size and storage. An EUC seems like a perfect fit for my purpose. I'll have a 15 mile one way commute to work, with the ability to charge here during the day. I'm in South Dakota, so it can get cold in the winter. I'm not even sure if I'd have the courage to ride in the winter yet so I didn't want to consider that initially. I'm about 5'8", and 140ish lbs since I know that can factor in on range.

With that info, I'm trying to decide now between the V10F and the KS18XL for my purposes. I know the KS has the larger capacity battery and the larger wheel. However, the increased price of entry there is a little difficult to get past. The V10F knocks off a good amount, but still seems like it might be limiting in terms of range when compared with the KS. Which one would people recommend between the two? Or even other better suggestions for getting into it with my range wants?

Thanks!

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Hi @Energon5 - welcome to our forum!

It is always hard to say what is the best wheel for any given rider, as there are a number of factors involved. So if you would be able to share a little more, we should be able to provide some more relevant feedback, in particular;

• What is the terrain like for you commute? Are there hills, et cetera?
• And what is the surface like? Are you riding on concrete / tar-seal, or is it more off-road? How rough is it?

[UniVehje]

Both are one of the best wheels on the market right now. I have the V10F and can warmly recommend it. However, if you want to ride 30 miles a day without charging at work, then you should go with the bigger battery on the 18XL. The V10F can do 30 miles ridden by relatively light person and sensibly. I've done it myself being 75 kg and riding 30+ km/h. But in cold weather it will probably not last that long. The 18XL will probably do that much even on a cold day. 

If you plan to charge at work, both should do fine. It is still a long way to ride daily. Comfort is something you should consider. The 18XL with bigger pedals should be good ( I have not yet tried it) and V10F has a reputation of being very comfortable to ride. I would personally probably choose the bigger wheel for long rides but the difference is not huge because the V10F feels larger than most 16" wheels due to the 2,5" width. 

I would recommend investing in the bigger battery for added flexibility with charging. But if you want to save the money, you will get by with the V10F and be happy with it. If you are heavier or have a lot of hills on the way, then you should go for the 18XL. It would be faster also. 

[meepmeepmayer]

You can't go wrong with either wheel. Both should do the distance even in worst temperature conditions, and both are great wheels.

For a daily (or regular) commute, I'd tend towards the bigger and more comfortable tire, simply for comfort reasons even on "bad" days. But the V10F tire is already very nice, so it's not like both wheels have a great tire (2.5 inches wide for both of them).

Speaking of comfortable tires, what about an msuper X? Beats both of them in the tire department (though the 18XL's handle is much nicer, which might very much matter for you).

Another reason to tend towards the 18XL (or MSX) would be the bigger range. Not ystrictly for your commute, but because you might want it later on Nobody ever regretted having a big battery.

But if you don't want to spend that much money or maybe the V10F just appeals to you more (looks, form factor, size, whatever), nothing wrong with getting one

[mrelwood]

Both wheels would serve your purpose well. Other models too, like Gotway Tesla. So you are back to the start regarding the + and - lists.

I would try and find time to watch as many reviews on YouTube as you can. After watching enough of them, you get the feel of which issues or bonuses are due to the reviewer and which ones the wheel actually deserves. You might also see differences in how people ride the wheels, as different wheels provoke different riding styles.

Whichever wheel you choose, welcome to the funnest hobby on earth!

[Jerome]

Your initial EUC interest is in it being a commuter. Once you learn how to ride well, however, things could change. The KS18XL can cruise at the maximum V10F speed. At your weight, it is a 50 mile machine versus 30 miles. Other considerations are mostly subjective. The price difference is very significant. The problem is you can't know whether it is justified until after the purchase and you learn how to ride. 

Good luck, and safe riding!

[Energon5]

6 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

• What is the terrain like for you commute? Are there hills, et cetera?
• And what is the surface like? Are you riding on concrete / tar-seal, or is it more off-road? How rough is it?

Terrain will be all paved. There are varying grades of hills for sure. Nothing bay area grade, but some decent hills. Terrain is all paved the whole way, all concrete, they don't do a lot of tar-seal here. I would specify it's not very rough for the majority, but like most snow-covered places the roads are always different once it warms up. I wouldn't mind the ability to go on a little gravel here and there based purely on if I get too addicted and want to ride to everything I do.

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Speaking of comfortable tires, what about an msuper X?

I hadn't really considered the MSX. The battery size, and tire seems to fit the environment here. The only thing that gives me pause there is the price. I'm going to have to buy some wristguards at least when purchasing. However I already have a nice helmet and all that, so maybe it's not too much of a consideration. I had been leaning towards the V10F previously, but that's based purely on people and videos stating that it's super comfortable for a 16" wheel, and InMotion's presence in the US made me think that finding support for any issues might be easier. I'm comfortable doing self-repairs on something like an MSX, but not sure how access to parts/reliability would compare with the V10. The MSX does seem extremely robust, just a high cost of entry.

[Meelosh123]

I'd say get the strongest one you can afford.  Is the V10F still limited to 25mph?  Where it beeps at you and forces you to slow down when you approach that speed?  I would hate that.

[Energon5]

1 minute ago, Meelosh123 said:

I'd say get the strongest one you can afford.  Is the V10F still limited to 25mph?  Where it beeps at you and forces you to slow down when you approach that speed?  I would hate that.

From what I can see it is limited to 25mph. However after getting taxes back, it's also looking like the highest I'll be able to afford currently. Maybe more in the future though?

[LanghamP]

I think the distance...15 miles...is just a bit too much for even an 18 incher for twice a day riding. It can be done with some risk, but riding an EUC requires intense concentration for probably 40 minutes of your commute, and that is very tiring to do day in and day out.

The good news is that you'll be surprised at how much less money you spend driving your car. It only takes 3-6 months to break even on a $1000 EUC.

In my opinion the fat-tire eBike (which I have) is the best all-purpose option so long as you have several chains, because you cruise at 20 mph everywhere except downhill, in which case you hit 30 mph. And mine is a slow Cat 1 bike. Way faster and safer than an EUC.

In my opinion, EUCs are great last several mile transportation at "not so fast" speeds, especially when you add getting onto and off buses and trains, but the 10 mile and above distance is risky because you're going fast for long distances.

Now don't get me wrong; everyone should have an EUC of some sort, if for no purpose but to throw in the back of your car or chill out behind your apartment door, but EUCs require intense concentration all the time when riding.

What about just getting a cheaper 16 inch wheel such as the KS16/Tesla and stuffing it into your eBike's saddlebags?

Since you already have an eBike, getting an 18 incher is somewhat redundant because their speed, range, and weight overlap.

 

[Meelosh123]

3 minutes ago, Energon5 said:

From what I can see it is limited to 25mph. However after getting taxes back, it's also looking like the highest I'll be able to afford currently. Maybe more in the future though?

I got my Tesla for 1450 and still am in love with it.

[Energon5]

3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

In my opinion, EUCs are great last several mile transportation at "not so fast" speeds, especially when you add getting onto and off buses and trains, but the 10 mile and above distance is risky because you're going fast for long distances.

Now don't get me wrong; everyone should have an EUC of some sort, if for no purpose but to throw in the back of your car or chill out behind your apartment door, but EUCs require intense concentration all the time when riding.

So based on this. It's just a good time. I would be able to convince my wife a little bit easier as an intro for something like a V8 just for fun to start out and learn to ride. Would that be a more viable option? I like it because it's cheaper and I still get to have a good time, but not break the bank for learning.

5 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

In my opinion the fat-tire eBike (which I have) is the best all-purpose option so long as you have several chains, because you cruise at 20 mph everywhere except downhill, in which case you hit 30 mph. And mine is a slow Cat 1 bike.

What I ride around most of the time is a Giant Quick-E+ ebike. This is great and gets me to work in around 45 minutes cruising between 20-25mph. I live in a city that doesn't have much for public transit. No trains, and buses are few and far between. So anything we do end up using has to be fully self sufficient. I appreciate this input though, I'd love to just get into it for fun and maybe see it as a commuting after I get more accustomed to it and learn how to ride.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Energon5 said:

I hadn't really considered the MSX. The battery size, and tire seems to fit the environment here. The only thing that gives me pause there is the price. I'm going to have to buy some wristguards at least when purchasing. However I already have a nice helmet and all that, so maybe it's not too much of a consideration. I had been leaning towards the V10F previously, but that's based purely on people and videos stating that it's super comfortable for a 16" wheel, and InMotion's presence in the US made me think that finding support for any issues might be easier. I'm comfortable doing self-repairs on something like an MSX, but not sure how access to parts/reliability would compare with the V10. The MSX does seem extremely robust, just a high cost of entry.

As you're in the U.S., buying a Gotway or King Song from ewheels.com is mostly a no-brainer (unless you can find a huge price difference). You'll get great support for any wheel you buy from there.

(He doesn't seem to sell the V10(F) any longer otherwise I'd have said to get the V10F from there, but the regular Inmotion shop seems to be good, too. No support concerns any way.)

MSX and 18XL are $50 close to each other ($2100 vs. $2150). If it weren't for the big tire (and slightly higher top speed and some slight offroad mountain advantages), there'd be little reason to buy it over the 18XL with its more robust shell (that will probably look good for a longer time) and its nice trolley handle, but the MSX tire is there and pretty nice (apparently). I'd still tend towards the 18XL for you (I'm speculating on better cosmetic longevity and the trolley handle), just wanted to have the MSX mentioned. Both have the same exact battery size and are fantastic wheels.

In general, either you buy a very cheap (ideally used) learner wheel with the intention to buy a "real" wheel soon because the cheap wheel isn't good enough. Or you buy your forever wheel right away, which would be the best wheel you can get.

But if you don't want to spend that much right now, the V10F seems the best 16 incher choice for you. It's still a great wheel, simply not the current top-of-the-line option (it were with a 1600Wh battery size) you might therefore regret not getting right away. Hope you understand the logic

Finally, wheel choice is intuition. If one wheel just shouts "buy me!" at you, it's the right one for you.

58 minutes ago, Energon5 said:

I would be able to convince my wife a little bit easier as an intro for something like a V8 just for fun to start out and learn to ride. Would that be a more viable option? I like it because it's cheaper and I still get to have a good time, but not break the bank for learning.

I think a V8 is a waste of money. Unlike the V10(F) which is a nice wheel you can happily live with (fast enough, powerful enough, good enough range), the V8 will leave you wanting (more speed, more range, more power) and you'll want to buy another wheel very soon. So the money spent on it is wasted in my opinion. Definitely get a V10(F) over a V8, even if you just want to try EUCs and see if they're seriously usable for you.

For similar reasons, I'd advise against an 18L (one third smaller battery than the 18XL), the extra price for the 18XL's higher range is worth it (or rather, not paying the higher price would be a regrettably lost opportunity).

You can learn on any wheel, just pad it up well enough. Learning is no concern in wheel choice

[gena]

My commute is 40miles/day, so I swapped my ks16s with an msx, because:

- I then can afford to miss a few bumps or road imperfections. With the ks16s, they would throw me off, while with the msx's big fat tires, steep pedals and stiff ride, I always get back ok on the pedals; overall, the journey is less tiring, "no need" to scan too much ahead

- the msx sourced on aliexpress was way cheaper than the 18xl bought directly in europe

I never rode the v10f, but I would advise the 18xl or msx, especially in cold weather: bigger tires, bigger battery. Maybe get a second hand one? some people might sell theirs in order to get the new nikola?

Long distance commute is not always pleasant, and can be dangerous. But so much more enjoyable than being enclosed in some car or train or whatever.

 Welcome to the club  

 

[houseofjob]

@Energon5

Sounds like you are stuck on price (we've all been there), so I'd say get the best wheel you're willing to pay for, as, with recent EUC models amongst the big 4 (Gotway, InMotion, King Song, Ninebot), there really is no terrible model.

No amount of posts here will convince you more than experiencing and formulating your needs yourself, especially having no frame of reference.

And if you realize you need a better/different spec wheel, you can sell your first at a minor loss right away to trade up (this was my case awhile back, first wheel being the Ninebot One E+, which I quickly flipped to upgrade to a King Song KS-18A when I realized I needed more)

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, gena said:

some people might sell theirs in order to get the new nikola?

Perhaps the the V10F, but it I find it very doubtful anyone is going to sell an XL for a Nicola.

Geez! Since buying the XL I have become such a snob

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Since you already have an eBike, getting an 18 incher is somewhat redundant because their speed, range, and weight overlap.

I think it’s pointless to compare any EUC with an e-bike. While purely pragmatically they might overlap, the whole concept and experience is so vastly different that one would choose one over the other because of other reasons anyway. An e-bike is a practical solution to a transportation problem, while an EUC is an addicting enthusiastic experience that can also be used to solve a transportation problem.

If one has his mind set on an EUC, deciding on an e-bike would be like buying a car because one wants a motorbike. The fever would never stop haunting you. A cheap trainer wheel is just an introduction to the hobby, it doesn’t begin to show what a current EUC can be used for.

During riding season I make around 30 mile trips on an MSX every day. Concentration is an important point, but not an issue in my mind, at least for an 18” EUC.

[Lutalo]

19 hours ago, Energon5 said:

Hello!

I'm an absolute beginner looking to get into EUC's. However, I'm in a fairly cold state, and a decently long one way commute. Currently I ride and ebike when I can, but this can be inhibitive due to size and storage. An EUC seems like a perfect fit for my purpose. I'll have a 15 mile one way commute to work, with the ability to charge here during the day. I'm in South Dakota, so it can get cold in the winter. I'm not even sure if I'd have the courage to ride in the winter yet so I didn't want to consider that initially. I'm about 5'8", and 140ish lbs since I know that can factor in on range.

With that info, I'm trying to decide now between the V10F and the KS18XL for my purposes. I know the KS has the larger capacity battery and the larger wheel. However, the increased price of entry there is a little difficult to get past. The V10F knocks off a good amount, but still seems like it might be limiting in terms of range when compared with the KS. Which one would people recommend between the two? Or even other better suggestions for getting into it with my range wants?

Thanks!

Without knowing much about your specific situation, I would recommend the 18XL off the break,  because it is the most versatile.

The 18L/XL is a magnificent all around performer and does everything that anyone can ask of an EUC very well. Due to the wonderful trolley handle, and lift sensor it is very convenient for commuting and easy to live with.

I own both the 18L and 18XL. They are both great wheels. You should also look at the 18L. I disagree with the idea that it is a waste because longer range wheels are available; it is an incredible wheel. People buy lower range wheels all the time,  because a lot of factors come into play for each buyer. A 1036wh battery is far more than you will need to commute 15 miles; some have gotten as much as 55 miles on one charge and it is easily a 40 mile wheel in all but the most aggressive situations and conditions.

While it's true that the XL gets substantially more range than the 18L, I have never come close to being abandoned or left stranded by my 18L. Even the throttling below 50% is not significant; you can still travel at a pretty good clip without throttling. From personal experience, the longer range of the XL is not without its performance sacrifices. Its two Big performance advantages over the 18L are: longer range and availability of full power over the range (it won't throttle until the battery is at 20-25%; something like that).

Real talk; the 18L does everything else you ask of a wheel: brakes, acceleration, maneuvering better than the 18XL. Not better by a large margin, but better.

The XL is the more attractive wheel because experienced riders lust for power, more power increases the capability and safety margin of a wheel.

For EUCs, power is expressed mostly through battery size, motor watts, and to a lesser degree firmware programming. The XL has greater range but, fundamentally it is just an 18L with a bigger battery pack. If you do not plan on taking super long expeditions, don't count the 18L out; plus, I think that you can cop one for less now because of the XL. 

Easy to ride as a wheel quality doesn't really matter for you because you are new and will learn to adapt to the unique dynamics of whichever of these models you choose. In the beginning they will all feel equally difficult. Just wrap the wheel up in some protective cover if you get any advanced model, because they are expensive. Without a cover whatever you buy will look really ugly by the time you master riding. 

Good luck and enjoy the journey. 

My two pesos. 

[meepmeepmayer]

11 hours ago, Lutalo said:

I own both the 18L and 18XL. They are both great wheels. You should also look at the 18L. I disagree with the idea that it is a waste because longer range wheels are available; it is an incredible wheel.

I strongly have to oppose that

$1800 vs. 2150$. $350 difference, which is for 50% more range/battery but only 20% more money.

People bought the 18L when it came out, then the 18XL appeared after much prodding for KS to finally offer bigger batteries, and everyone wished they could upgrade or just did. It's telling that Speedyfeet usually has very little used wheels on offer, but now TWO 18L can be found there.

If the 18XL is too expensive, the 18L is too. 1800 is still a shitton of money, but with a much worse bang-for-your-buck than the 18XL.

1600Wh vs. 1000W is a significant difference in the tours one can do.

-

Speaking of $1800, is that really the V10F price? I just looked it up on the Inmotion site. Way too much! Even an 18L would make more sense for this same price.

So if the V10F really is $1800, I'd say it is out of the question to buy one. I really hope there is a better price somewhere. If not, the 18XL or MSX are the only sane choice, or a cheaper but still great wheel like a Tesla or 16S (anything under 1500).

-

I think we need to speak about concrete prices to help @Energon5 choose. I expected the V10F to be cheaper. A V10 can be had for $900 on Gearbest, though, that might be a great lower-cost alternative if it's not region locked (one would have to ask the seller).

[Lutalo]

 

3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

$1800 vs. 2150$. $350 difference, which is for 50% more range/battery but only 20% more money.

I ride my XL almost daily. I have been hard pressed to use all the range I get with the XL around DC; to even come close. I think that I may have actually charged it from low twice in the three months that I have owned it. It really is truly impressive how much range the 18XL gets. I went on a 20 mile round trip yesterday and it dropped one dot on the battery meter; impressive.

I take many solo and group expeditions on my XL. It always impresses with range. However, these are essentialIy the same expeditions that I also regularly traveled with the 18L. The L handled these same solo expeditions just fine. It gave me all the range I needed and then some.

From a real world perspective the 18L is and has always been a fantastic wheel that gets great range; more range than I have actually ever needed on any solo expedition or commuting situation; that's reality as opposed to paper spec bragging rights.

Furthermore, from a performance standpoint the 18L is a better performing wheel than the 18XL on just about every riding metric outside of range. So, he wouldn't be getting a superior wheel; he would be getting superior range. If that matters, cool. If it doesn't, cool.

I respect your opinion and the grounds for your disagreement, but 20% is not an insignificant amount for mere bragging rights on a feature a person won't really use. 

I am certain that @Energon5 is perfectly capable of determining on his own what constitutes value based on his specific needs, wants, situation, allocation constraints, and preferences; I don't presume to know what's best for him. 

Hopefully, me sharing the pros and cons of two wheel's with which I happen to be very familiar will assist him with the kind of info that is helpful to him in making his decision. I am sure that your perspective is very helpful as well. 

For how much is Speedyfeet offering the 18Ls he has for sale? That seems like it could be a good option for @Energon5 if he is in Europe. 

 

 

[Jerome]

19 hours ago, Energon5 said:

So based on this. It's just a good time. I would be able to convince my wife a little bit easier as an intro for something like a V8 just for fun to start out and learn to ride. Would that be a more viable option? I like it because it's cheaper and I still get to have a good time, but not break the bank for learning.

What I ride around most of the time is a Giant Quick-E+ ebike. This is great and gets me to work in around 45 minutes cruising between 20-25mph. I live in a city that doesn't have much for public transit. No trains, and buses are few and far between. So anything we do end up using has to be fully self sufficient. I appreciate this input though, I'd love to just get into it for fun and maybe see it as a commuting after I get more accustomed to it and learn how to ride.

I think this is your "smartest" course. You don't know what your feelings will be about an EUC and commuting until you learn how to ride. Investing in a V8 will allow you to learn and decide. An EUC is redundant to your E-Bike, "unless" locking up/theft or storage is a problem. 

[Meelosh123]

3 hours ago, Lutalo said:

I ride my XL almost daily. I have been hard pressed to use all the range I get with the XL around DC; to even come close...

I'm with you on range; it totally depends on your use-case.  I knew that the longest range I would really need for my area was approximately 30 miles, and this turned out to be a trip rarer than expected.  My 1020Wh wheel is able to do this and somehow has approximately 5,6 out of 8 bars left.  YMMV (god I love this forum acronym on this particular forum )   Granted, it's on a speed-restricted multi-use path (so i'm not hitting 25+) and it's lined with trees so the wind resistance is more minimal than open areas.  A 15-mile trip on paved roads is chump-change; you don't need the hugest battery available.

That said, if you're set on a KS18...I'd scrounge up the extra $350 for the bigger battery.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that the throttling that occurs from lower battery levels are quite different.

In areas outside of my city, I do see concrete paved pathways along highways, and I imagine I would use those paths to get to the beach and other parts of the city, at high speed, and far away.  If I lived in areas like that, then a larger wheel and larger battery would make more sense (and I would get that )

[Lutalo]

3 minutes ago, Meelosh123 said:

I'm with you on range; it totally depends on your use-case.  I knew that the longest range I would really need for my area was approximately 30 miles, and this turned out to be a trip rarer than expected.  My 1020Wh wheel is able to do this and somehow has approximately 5,6 out of 8 bars left.  YMMV (god I love this forum acronym on this particular forum )   Granted, it's on a speed-restricted multi-use path (so i'm not hitting 25+) and it's lined with trees so the wind resistance is more minimal than open areas.  A 15-mile trip on paved roads is chump-change; you don't need the hugest battery available.

That said, if you're set on a KS18...I'd scrounge up the extra $350 for the bigger battery.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that the throttling that occurs from lower battery levels are quite different.

In areas outside of my city, I do see concrete paved pathways along highways, and I imagine I would use those paths to get to the beach and other parts of the city, at high speed, and far away.  If I lived in areas like that, then a larger wheel and larger battery would make more sense (and I would get that )

Exactly. Longer range wheels make a lot of sense for some people. For others, not so much. In your particular use case, throttling would not be an issue for you on an 18L because it would be challenging for you to even get the battery under 50% on one your typical rides; especially, with the limited speeds. Furthermore, the throttled speed at 50% is much faster than the speed limit in your trails; so, it's not an issue for you. I frequently ride the trails around DC. Only one trail that I have encountered in the DC Area (DMV) even has a speed limit posted; that's the Capitol Crescent Trail (CCT). Even still, I have found it impossible to reach sustained high speeds on any trail in the DMV due to surface irregularities, pedestrians crowds, and bicycles.

[Energon5]

The discussion in this thread has been great. Based on some factors here, and just the general circumstances and everything, I'm thinking I'm going to end up trying to get the V10F to start with. And if I end up needing more power or anything after that, I'll figure out selling and trading up in some way. Thanks for all the input!

[Unventor]

34 minutes ago, Energon5 said:

The discussion in this thread has been great. Based on some factors here, and just the general circumstances and everything, I'm thinking I'm going to end up trying to get the V10F to start with. And if I end up needing more power or anything after that, I'll figure out selling and trading up in some way. Thanks for all the input!

I just saw this thread today as you posted the above.

If it is not too late let me add my 2 cent comment.

I started wiyh Inmotion V8 last spring. Planned commuting 2 km each way and maybe a little cosy riding. 2 monthe late I chose to buy a KS18L. My Inmotion could no long krep up with the development of my ride habits changes. I rarely use my car anymore. I use my wheel to vomute and shopping. I don't ride @Marty Backe styletrails or @Sebamassive distances. Longest ride before charging is still 35ish km. So why do I now consider buying KS18XL?

3 reasons.

1) Heavier wheel givesore ride stability.

2) Bigger battery, makes wheel less prone to trottling in cold weather.

3) A 2nd wheel makes it a backup so a puncture or need of service do not prevent me to ride. And I can have wheel for good weather/summer and old wheel for rain/snow conditions.

Now why choose a KS18L and KS18XL. I have the KS18L now, by nuying a KS18XL  I have se interchangeably parts, same tyre and trolley. Less risk of stand still.

The range you talk about I think a KS18L might suffice, but but but...consider cost of added possibility I would maybe look at KS18XL if extra cost isn't major issue. 

The major plus for KS18L is hardbox sealed battety. Less weight if you have to lift the wheel often over doorsteps/stairs.

Note: I have not testrd the V10f,  but most hete seem to pick the KS18L over V10f.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. I have an old review thread whete you can see how I felt as I upgraded.