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Good news from Germany

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4 hours ago, travsformation said:

We're talking about EUCs, not views on exile, refugees, immigration and whatnot...

But what if these refugees arrived on EUC's?

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1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

But what if these refugees arrived on EUC's?

:efee612b4b:

In that case, they'd probably be Chinese asylum seekers, in which case we'd probably all be dying to know what amazing new EUC they stole the blueprints for.... ­čśé┬á

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Posted (edited)
On 2/27/2019 at 12:07 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

The more I think about it, the more I think I should prepare to just floor it if the police stops me and tries to take my wheel.

 

On 3/8/2019 at 1:00 PM, Mossi said:

I try to avoid police but I know some day they will catch me and I'm pretty sure they won't let me go. Last monday it almost was so far, they tried to cut off my path. Luckily I went the other way and I could drive around. 

If anyone is concerned about police confiscating their wheel, do what I do.

1. be on the alert for police vehicles around you, but especially ahead of you, either moving, or stationary

2. Be in tune with the uniforms police wear in your area and watch for these pedestrians too

3. Wear headphones.  You don't have to have anything playing through them, if that is your preference.  I said headphones, not ear buds; they must be clearly visible.  (if you ride with a  helmet, skip this part.

The headphones are to give you a reasonable reason why you "didn't hear" the officer when he yelled for you to stop, or come here, or what ever else he said that your music (real or fake) drowned out. If an officer calls out to you, do not make eye contact (i didn't see you, excuse) and don't react directly to the call (I didn't hear you, excuse)

4.  Change your path to avoid the officer/vehicle, or

5. Pull up to a stop behind something that obscures your wheel from view, like a parked car, a bush, or a wheelie bin.  Then dismount (to reduce your height).  If you are wearing a helmet you might want to take it off as a pedestrian wearing a helmet is a potential bank robber (even more police scrutiny)

If you change your path, don't make it look like you are fleeing, ride casually, pretend to sight see, check your phone, etc , but fast enough and in a direction which will make it too difficult for the officer to follow.

I haven't  had to flee yet, but I have changed direction, and pulled over, shielded from view, and stepped down, a few times. Most cops in the UK don't care but I assume they all do, when I have some chance to avoid finding out for real.  If I get my wheel confiscated I don't think I would buy another wheel; Everywhere I want to ride is illegal, and I'm not made of money.

 

I'm also thinking about carrying a large bag (think Ikea) to cover the wheel if I need to hide it when nothing else is around)

Edited by Smoother
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Does this mean the title of this topic needs to be changed to "bad news from Germany" as it is apparent that all EUCs are functionally illegal?

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3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Does this mean the title of this topic needs to be changed to "bad news from Germany" as it is apparent that all EUCs are functionally illegal?

Sadly i would say yes.

But i donÔÇÖt give a ... iam gonna ride anyways.:ph34r:

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Smoother said:

3. Wear headphones.  You don't have to have anything playing through them, if that is your preference.  I said headphones, not ear buds; they must be clearly visible.  (if you ride with a  helmet, skip this part.

[...]

If you change your path, don't make it look like you are fleeing, ride casually, pretend to sight see, check your phone,etc , but fast enough and and in a direction which will make it too difficult for the officer to follow.

 

Good tips (especially being vigilant, casually changing trajectory, dismounting, etc.). Unfortunately, laws change from country to country, and the two recommendations I outlined above are illegal here in Spain. Checking your phone and wearing headphones (headphones, earbuds, doesn't matter here) are both illegal in Spain. Here, in fact, you can be fined even for wearing headphone around your neck (to discourage people from using headphones and just taking them off when they see the cops, presumably).

I don't know what the case is in Germany, but worth looking into.

P.S. @Smoother You forgot one tip: metal to the pedal! We're versatile enough to flee in ways it would be hard for any other vehicle to catch us. Then again...Depending on where you live (inhabitants), that might be someone you only get to do once, that'll bring plenty more headaches in the future....

Personally, I'm of the opinion the we shouldn't need laws and people should behave decently out of respect and common sense, so if I don't think a law is fair/reasonable, I have no issue breaking it. Meaning...in big cities/when away from mine, depending on the situation, I don't think I'd hesitate to make a run for it...

Edited by travsformation
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Does this mean the title of this topic needs to be changed to "bad news from Germany" as it is apparent´╗┐ that all EUCs are functionally illegal?

No, because that is not news, not even close. The news is that the Minister of Transport is in favor to introduce an exemption regulation for equipment without a handlebar, as said in the OP.

Edited by Mono

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18 hours ago, travsformation said:

I upvoted your initial comment on the subject thinking you were being ironic, in an absurd Ponty-Pythonesque style. Didn't realize you were being serious. Sorry for the downvote...would rather not delve into why I disagree with you (this isn't a political/sociological/racial/religious thread/forum), so let's just leave it at "this is NOT the right place to express such ideas"...

We're talking about EUCs, not views on exile, refugees, immigration and whatnot...

I put that in there as the way that Germans can be extraordinarily bad at assessing risk and threats despite having a superb education system and a great social net.

Seeing EUCs as a threat to pedestrian safety is not smart. Seeing refugees as not a threat is also not smart. Seeing autos as a semi-threat is good, I should think.

There's no question that refugees are a threat to the well-being of Germany, as there is now an avalanche of crime in Germany. Most of these refugees are simply immigrants not from Syria.

https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-migrants-20181206-story.html

Bavarian police say they have responded to calls at refugee centers more than 20,000 times so far in 2018 -- to break up fights between different ethnic groups or investigate crimes ranging from assault to theft, drugs violations and rape. The total number of crimes involving refugees and migrants has tripled to 40,109 cases in Bavaria alone ÔÇö just one of GermanyÔÇÖs 16 states ÔÇö in 2017 from 13,203 in 2014.

To the surprise of no one who has even a tiny bit of street smarts or who has spent a week in a 3rd world country, Germany has now implemented a refugee bribe program to get them to return to their own country, as authorities have now realized what a colossal mistake virtue-signaling asylum.

https://qz.com/1179970/european-refugee-crisis-countries-that-pay-migrants-the-most-to-go-home/

Anyway, my thoughts are that Germans are not very good at assessing threats, and seem to have a historical record of Really Bad Decisions.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, LanghamP said:

There's no question´╗┐ tha´╗┐t ref´╗┐ugees are a threat to the well-being of Germ´╗┐´╗┐any

 

8 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Anyway, my thoughts are that Germans are not very good at assessin´╗┐g´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ threats, an´╗┐d seem to have a historical´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ record of Really Bad Decisio´╗┐n´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐s´╗┐

:facepalm:

Edited by travsformation
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Seeing EUCs as a threat to pedestrian safety is not smart.

I don't know whether it is "smart" to see it that way, but there is no question that EUCs are a threat to pedestrians. To deny that means surrendering to a confirmation bias even on an utterly simple question. Sure, cars are probably a greater threat and quantification of the threat to pedestrians is difficult and in the end only possible based on data. I would very much like to be allowed on sidewalks, but knowing the range of attitudes and behaviors of EUCers I find it hard to argue against pedestrians that have a very different opinion on that. It suffices if just 1 out of 50 behaves like a total a****** and I don't feel I have much of an argument left.

Edited by Mono
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4 hours ago, Mono said:

I don't know whether it is "smart" to see it that way, but there is no question that EUCs are a threat to pedestrians. To deny that means surrendering to a confirmation bias even on an utterly simple question. Sure, cars are probably a greater threat and quantification of the threat to pedestrians is difficult and in the end only possible based on data. I would very much like to be allowed on sidewalks, but knowing the range of attitudes and behaviors of EUCers I find it hard to argue against pedestrians that have a very different opinion on that. It suffices if just 1 out of 50 behaves like a total a****** and I don't feel I have much of an argument left.

As always, its the rider that is a danger to pedestrians, EUCs are much safer around pedestrians than a bicycle because they take up no more space than a pedestrian and can turn on a dime and can even go backwards. When we are talking about risks and safety the rider plays by far the largest factor in that risk. People need to be educated and trained on how to ride safely and those that put others at risk should have their EUCs confiscated.

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19 hours ago, travsformation said:

Checking your phone and wearing headphones (headphones, earbuds, doesn't matter here) are both illegal in Spain. Here, in fact, you can be fined even for wearing headphone around your neck (to discourage people from using headphones and just taking them off when they see the cops, presumably).

I think making sure people aren't distracted is a great idea.

Presumably, drivers are also subject to this law? After all, they are the ones driving the most dangerous vehicles on the road. Presumably even if the car radio is turned off, drivers are still fined because they might have turned off the radio when they saw the cops.

Or are Spaniards just as bad at assessing threats as Germans are? I mean, it's my opinion a truck driver listening to his radio is more dangerous than a bicyclists listening to his headphones.

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3 minutes ago, Nic said:

As always, its the rider that is a danger to pedestrians, EUCs are much safer around pedestrians than a bicycle because they take up no more space than a pedestrian and can turn on a dime and can even go backwards. When we are talking about risks and safety the rider plays by far the largest factor in that risk. People need to be educated and trained on how to ride safely and those that put others at risk should have their EUCs confiscated.

I agree (though I think that slowly ridden bicycles are about as harmless as it can get, IIRC everybody rides bicycles on sidewalks in Japan), I am just not too optimistic that this is a realistic pathway of how things could turn out. In the end, you seem to propose something like a licensing procedure that includes a mandatory and effective training.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/27/2019 at 12:07 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

The more I think about it, the more I think I should prepare to just floor it if the police stops me and tries to take my wheel.

That's always an option, especially if you choose a path they can't follow at the same speed.

@travsformation those headphone laws you cite are news to me but they make sense from a safety point of view, for drivers of vehicles; cars, trucks, etc.  As for a solitary EUCist minding his own business riding on a bike path, they seem rather draconian. 

At first I was concerned about what you typed, until I remembered that riding an EUC is illegal in the UK so I'm already breaking the law.  In England we have a saying "you might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb" (I'm sure every culture has an equivalent saying) so If I'm already an outlaw I might as well keep using the headphones; especially as the police really get pissed off with people who ignore their commands (the I didn't hear you defense, if they catch up with you) .  And of course by using the " I didn't hear you" strategy there is no need to flee in the first place, because cops really hate people who run from them.  Some dufus on a wheel jamming to his tunes and cruising around in "random directions" (fleeing without fleeing) tends not to get body slammed to the ground by the cops as much as the speed daemon ignoring, and then fleeing from the good officers of the law.  Cops are like cheetahs, they instinctively chase anything that runs from them.

Another problem with an obvious fleeing attempt, is that you wont be able to ride around there again without forever looking over your shoulder.

That said, the laws you cite do concern me for my future time in Spain.  I really long for the good old days.

Edited by Smoother

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mono said:

I agree (though I think that slowly ridden bicycles are about as harmless as it can get, IIRC everybody rides bicycles on sidewalks in Japan), I am just not too optimistic that this is a realistic pathway of how things could turn out. In the end, you seem to propose something like a licensing procedure that includes a mandatory and effective training.

Yes, I am in favour of some kind of training requirement before being allowed to ride a PLEV, but I am not in favour of requiring insurance or registration of these vehicles. If people are made aware of how to ride safely and considerately, then when the don't behave in such a manner (ignoring minor transgressions where no one is actually at risk) they should have their PLEV confiscated. Just now people are simply left to use their own judgement and that doesn't work. You can't just have people jumping on a Bird eScooter and riding at 15mph on sidewalk expecting pedestrians to get out of their way ... this is what is happening and its a problem. If everyone knows the rules, then they can have no excuses for getting it wrong.

Edited by Nic
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Smoother said:

@travsformation those headphone laws you cite are news to me but they make sense from a safety point of view, for drivers of vehicles; cars, trucks, etc.  As for a solitary EUCist minding his own business riding on a bike path, they seem rather draconian.

As to the headphone laws, I have to admit I don't find them that insensible. Just yesterday I was calling out on an erratic bicycle I was about to pass, to no avail. Headphones....

I think cyclists and EUC riders need to be equally (acoustically) aware of their surroundings as drivers (car horn, pedestrians, etc.), but I do think getting fined for wearing headphones around your neck is a bit much. The only legal options are either in-helmet speakers (which is what I use), or if you don't wear a FF helmet, something like this (which is what a lot of Barceloanians appear to be using):

soundwear-companion-dgm0-dgm0.jpg?itok=MYV-vUuw

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

At first I was concerned about what you typed, until I remembered that riding an EUC is illegal in the UK so I'm already breaking the law.  In England we have a saying "you might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb" (I'm sure every culture has an equivalent saying) so If I'm already an outlaw I might as well keep using the headphones

Unfortunately, that wouldn't apply here, you'd be tripling (at least) your chances of getting pulled over. EUCs are still a novelty and regulations are still in an embryonic/chaotic stage, so unless you're doing something reckless, you should be OK: Even if you do get pulled over, unless you're clearly breaking the law, you'll get a pep talk and that's about it. Headphone laws, on the other hand, have been in place for years and are a clear red flag that would made a cop (who, out of legal uncertainty, probably wouldn't have bothered pulling you over otherwise) go after you and slap you with a hefty fine...

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

Another problem with an obvious fleeing attempt, is that you wont be able to ride around there again without forever looking over your shoulder.

Very true, that. Only when away from home/abroad! ;)

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

That said, the laws you cite do concern me for my future time in Spain.┬á I really long for the good old days. ´╗┐

Yeah, looks like I missed out on those. We're all a bit anxious about how things will turn out...and given the way things are done here, the tide can change swiftly from one day to another, so...I'll keep you posted. But in any case, as a foreigner visiting, you can probably get away with a lot more than a local. The good ol' "Yo no hablo espa├▒ol" has gotten me out of more than one tight spot... ;)

P.S. Thread de-railing R' us! :efee612b4b:

Edited by travsformation
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2 hours ago, Nic said:

Yes, I am in favour of some kind of training requirement before being allowed to ride a PLEV, but I am not in favour of requiring insurance or registration of these vehicles.´╗┐

Looks like a good approach. The main disadvantage is that it becomes even more difficult to get started then. Maybe that could be mitigated by letting a registration for acquiring the license be enough to ride a PLEV for the first three months before to actually pass the lessons.

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3 hours ago, Mono said:

Looks like a good approach. The main disadvantage is that it becomes even more difficult to get started then. Maybe that could be mitigated by letting a registration for acquiring the license be enough to ride a PLEV for the first three months before to actually pass the lessons.

Training is theory only ... understanding the law and how to ride safely ... no riding involved.

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Danger sensor. 2 words.

Gun laws

 

:lol: 

3 minutes ago, Nic said:

and how to ride safely

This is called "common sense".

Unfortunately not that common :( 

Like not going 20mph on the sidewalk if every 10 meters there is a front door.

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20 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

if every 10 meters there is a front door.

I am so much wondering how that always seems to work out and did have some closer calls (not extremely close though). I mean, are people not sometimes in a rush and run out of their front door...? So far I had more close calls at corners though, IIRC.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I think makin´╗┐g´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ sure people aren't distracted is a great idea.´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

Presumably, drivers are also subject to this law? After all, they are the o´╗┐nes driving the most dangerous vehicles on t´╗┐he´╗┐ ro´╗┐ad´╗┐. ´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

I agree with you there, and yes, the headphones and ear buds law does apply to drivers too. Having the radio on full blast, as in loud enough for it to isolate you from your surroundings, is also illegal.

 

10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

it's my´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐ opinion a truck driver listening to his radio is more dangerous than a bicyclists listening to h´╗┐is headphones.´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

One would think so, but then again, a truck driver is already much more isolated from his environment (engine noise, windows rolled up, etc), and car radios are such an ingrained tradition there's not much that can be done about it. Or are they illegal in the US? ­čśë

No one said laws necessarily make sense, or cup holders and ash trays in cars would possibly be illegal too... 

In any case, people don't tend to respect the law all that much here anyway so... 

10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Presumably´╗┐ even if the car radio is turned off, drivers are still fined because they might have turned off the radio when they saw the cops.´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

Listening to the radio at reasonable volume levels is perfectly legal (but discouraged in driving classes, as it's a distraction. Then again, so is talking to the copilot or scratching your balls...). 

If it weren't legal, you'd have to outlaw car radios entirely, and I don't even think that would work. People would probably switch to portable Bluetooth speakers and hide them under the seat when they got pulled over ­čśé

10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

are´╗┐´╗┐ Spaniards just as bad at assessing threats as Germans a´╗┐re´╗┐? ´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐

Spaniards are world-famous for getting drunk and running in front of angry bulls... What does that tell you about our risk assessment? ­čśé

Edited by travsformation
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8 hours ago, travsformation said:

Spaniards are world-famous for getting drunk and running in front of angry bulls... What does that tell you about our risk assessment? ­čśé

:lol::lol:

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15 hours ago, travsformation said:

 Just yesterday I was calling out on an erratic bicycle I was about to pass, to no avail. Headphones....

Yes, if one wears headphones one has given up the right to ride erratically ( if one ever had a right in the first place) looking over the shoulder (or Marty mirror) is essential for a long life.

 The only legal options are either in-helmet speakers (which is what I use), or if you don't wear a FF helmet, something like this (which is what a lot of Barceloanians appear to be using):

Do you have a link for that shoulder phone?

Unfortunately, that wouldn't apply here, you'd be tripling (at least) your chances of getting pulled over. EUCs are still a novelty and regulations are still in an embryonic/chaotic stage, so unless you're doing something reckless, you should be OK: Even if you do get pulled over, unless you're clearly breaking the law, you'll get a pep talk and that's about it. Headphone laws, on the other hand, have been in place for years and are a clear red flag that would made a cop (who, out of legal uncertainty, probably wouldn't have bothered pulling you over otherwise) go after you and slap you with a hefty fine...

An excellent point. Now that I think of it, I didn't ride in Spain with headphone; that came after I returned to England.  So maybe I would have had a few talks from the cops EVEN IN the good old days.The learning just doesn't stop on this forum.

. But in any case, as a foreigner visiting, you can probably get away with a lot more than a local. The good ol' "Yo no hablo espa├▒ol" has gotten me out of more than one tight spot... ;)

Dos cervesas por favor, officer

P.S. Thread de-railing R' us! :efee612b4b:

Tis a time honored tradition.  I long ago realized that the OP loses control of his thread after about four posts.  That's why it's so hard to find anything later on.  Even the poster has no idea in which thread his masterful description/explanation/information is buried.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Smoother said:

Yes, if one wears headphones one has given up the right to ride erratically ( if one ever had a right in the first place) looking over the shoulder (or Marty mirror) is essential for a long life.

I agree. I wouldn't wear headphones while riding even if they were legal. I value my life and like to be fully aware of my surroundings. Hearing a car aggressively accelerating behind you, or an engine sound approaching an intersection (before the car is even in your field of vision) can be the difference between "I had a great ride today" and "The EUC wall of pain"...

Do you have a link for that shoulder phone?

There are only two models on the market to date, as far as I'm aware of (there were a couple others, but they've been discontinued): The Bose Sound Companion and the JBL Soundgear (I'd say that, although more expensive, the Bose has the edge, both because it's water resistant, and because of battery life > 12h vs. 6h). They're marketed as "wearable personal speakers" that create a "sound dome" around you but "allow you to remain aware of your surroundings". I know several people who vouch for them (even with a FF helmet on). Although they're technically legal here, some even wear them under a scarf to hide them just for in case. If you're interested, it's worth checking out a few reviews first, they're apparently not for everyone. Some find the sound to be focused enough (upward firing, directed at the listener) that you can remain aware of your surroundings without what you're listening to bothering others, and some have found that they are actually audible and annoying to those around you. The most balanced reviews I've found (I've been looking into these myself), not so much as to specific models, but in terms of the concept itself, are these: Review 1 / Review 2 / Comparison

Although my personal opinion is that these things are ridiculously overpriced and the technology still needs a lot of polishing before they're actually worth their price tag...

Dos cervesas por favor, officer

:roflmao:

That approach has worked fine for me in Mexico, but cyclists (and PEV users) are subject to breathalyser tests here in Spain now so...Test at your own risk. :efee612b4b: 

P.S. Thread de-railing R' us! :efee612b4b:

Tis a time honored tradition.  I long ago realized that the OP loses control of his thread after about four posts.  That's why it's so hard to find anything later on.  Even the poster has no idea in which thread his masterful description/explanation/information is buried.

The fact that isn't that big a deal in this forum has been pointed out to me in a number of occasions, but I spend so much time, on a daily basis, in language forums (for work), where the grammar Gestapo crack down on you if you deviate more than a couple of degrees from topic, that I can't seem to shake it off and am still quite self-conscious about thread de-railing in this here forum (even though that's the way my brain works and staying on topic is a near-impossibility for me...) :efee612b4b:

But I see your point. Luckily, a great number of subject keep repeating themselves and resurfacing, so eventually, via the Chaos Theory, one is bound to stumble upon / accidentally come across what he's looking for :efee612b4b:

 

Edited by travsformation
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