The pedestrian debate

[Freewheeler]

This appears to be a hotly debated topic. Do you call out to pedestrians that you intend to pass? 

Thank you for participating.

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[Sidewalk Enforcer]

Mini Bell

Bought a small hand-held bell shortly after I started riding as "calling out" tended to startle pedestrians more often than not. Most recognise the ding-ding of a bike bell and react appropriately. Clips on to my wrist-guard strap.

[esaj]

I use a minibell too. Whether I ring or not and passing speed depend entirely on the situation. If need be (ie. oncoming pedestrian/bicycle traffic, big events with lots of people), I can ride at walking speed or even sub-walking speed behind them for as long as I like.

[Gaz Bon]

I ride trails and tracks be lucky if I see a dirt bike every 25kms

Occasionally take my wheel into the city finger buzzer and high viz on ,speed highly reduced and pass pedestrians slow even taking to the road or vering off paths or tracks to reduce possibleility of contact as im sure being on an EUC which is not legal here in OZ i would be at fault

It's a stuation I never wanna be in so utter most care taken

[Mike Sacristan]

I ride bike paths and trails. Some bike paths are shared with pedestrians and some are split lanes.
If it is a split lane I use my bell as they should not be on the dedicated bike path.
If it is not a split lane I navigate around the person at slow speed. If it is several people spreading out and not leaving space and I need space I use my bell.
If someone is coming toward me I make sure that I slow down to at least 20km/h as I approach them.

At night I use a flashlight.
If I am approaching anyone from behind I use it on flash/strobe mode.
If I am approaching anyone who is walking in my direction I use it on medium mode.

People usually react negatively to the bell. The sound makes them feel shame and anger for being in the way.
People scurry like ants when I use the flashlight. They don't know what's coming and it's dark so they move all the way to the side of the bike path.

[Rywokast]

i dont ever call out, i just leave as much space between as possible and will just not pass if there isnt at least 1.5x enough space in case they suddenly shift.. people are often on their phone or distracted and not walking perfectly straight... i pass them at a speed only slightly faster than they are walking and nobody has ever complained

[Scatcat]

I tend to warn early, while still at a range where I could come to a full stop if necessary. A ring or two to give a heads up, but only if they're in my lane or seem preoccupied in a way that may create a dangerous situation.

[RockyTop]

College kids are dangerous to ride around. They are always looking at their phone while randomly darting into traffic (all traffic) (no indication of intent at all) (none!) 

[LanghamP]

6 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

College kids are dangerous to ride around. They are always looking at their phone while randomly darting into traffic (all traffic) (no indication of intent at all) (none!) 

I'm a total ass around college kids on campus, yelling at them to get out of the way, squeezing past them when there isn't room, and playing my Kinsgsong as loud as it goes. To be fair every single bicyclists does the same.

Nobody cares, because the relative speed is so low as to be harmless.

Which, off course, begs the question of dismounting. We should dismount much more often than what we do.

While the cell phone zombie irritates me, walking while on a cell phone isn't any more dangerous than not doing so, but doing so absolves a driver running a red light and mowing over a texting pedestrian (now most cities is Hawaii, and many  in the mainland US).

Drive at 20 mph around streets where there are pedestrians, and I guarantee you'll never hurt or kill a pedestrian.

[Mmhmmm]

9 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I'm a total ass, I guarantee.

😉🤔

[null]

In France EUCs are (soon) supposed to be on the bike lane, so when on the side walk I consider the pedestrians priority and:

- Pass by them at walking speed if they are particularly slow.

[Darrell Wesh]

Here is my post from the previous thread:

There are two kinds of people. Those that follow the rules and those that don’t because experience tells them it doesn’t work.

Similar to people who cross intersections in the middle of the road and wait on the concrete barriers between traffic vs having to deal with getting hit going along the crosswalk on a 4 way intersection with turning vehicles. 

Just because it’s the rules doesn’t make it the safest option or best option. Experience tells me that most of the time calling out won’t even register in a distracted pedestrians mind and they’ll do something completely unpredictable trying to figure out what they just heard. 

Have you ever tried to tell someone something who wasn’t paying attention? How many times have they said “what?” and struggled to understand what you just said. Screaming at them from a distance that you’re coming on the left doesn’t work much of the time. You have those people that can’t even tell their left from right and actually go IN to the path you tell them you’re coming in.  

Of course you should slow while passing them, but experience once again tells me that most people will not act erratically right before you pass and dive into your path. Once again you should only call out if they are blocking the path by straddling the middle. Oren times people on one extreme side are already giving faster moving people space and don’t want to hear a biker screaming at them something they’re already doing 

[Darrell Wesh]

On the college campus or ANY busy sidewalk/path it would be ludicrous to call out every single time you are passing someone. Your voice would get sore. You would be hated for disrupting the peace with your loud ass bell or shouting every ten seconds. 

EUC’s are already extremely quiet. You’ve been approaching the pedestrian for some time now and if you haven’t observed any erratic movement then it’s safe to assume they’ll continue in a straight path unless acted upon by a commotion (which is you yelling at them that you’re coming by at which point they will act erratically which you don’t want).

now if you’re approaching some dude who looks like he’s solely walking because he downed too many beers to drive, THEN it would be wise to slow way down and call out. 

[kasenutty]

I don't call out unless they're really in the way. These answers are going to be different for everyone depending on where they live. I'm in the Suburbs, with big wide sidewalks and not many pedestrians. The ones I do encounter usually turn around if I call out and half the time they step in front of my while turning around. If I don't say anything, the experience is much smoother. I I slow down a little bit, I don't fly by them within a quarter inch at top speed. 

If they look drunk/shakey/dangerous I speed up and pass in a wide silent arc. 

I'm riding past two or three people an hour though, so this is totally different than commuting in NYC. 

[LanghamP]

8 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Similar to people who cross intersections in the middle of the road and wait on the concrete barriers between traffic vs having to deal with getting hit going along the crosswalk on a 4 way intersection with turning vehicles.  

This is something that really bothers me, mostly because I've been hit and I've seen others get hit by drivers who ignore the red light and the zebra stripes. We're taught to follow traffic rules from an early age, and we've assumed doing so would keep us safe, but it turns out through the simplest observation and thinking that people crossing in the middle of a busy street are, in fact, following their best self-preservation while we, the crosswalk users, are the foolish ones exposed to the most danger. You're never safe on a crosswalk because at no time is it illegal for a driver to enter the crosswalk (right turn on red, left car arrow into the crosswalk).

Same thing when passing pedestrians; calling out to them makes them turn and move in a direction different from what they would have if you had not called out in the first place.

You really should dismount if you feel you need to call out.

[MetricUSA]

First I try to ring my bike bell, but having gloves on doesn't make it easy, second i normally ride blasting music... They get out of your way....way before you even near...

[esaj]

On 2/28/2019 at 5:06 AM, LanghamP said:

 You're never safe on a crosswalk because at no time is it illegal for a driver to enter the crosswalk (right turn on red, left car arrow into the crosswalk).

Different place, different rules: here a car driver hitting a pedestrian on a crosswalk (without separate traffic lights for pedestrian) is always at fault. Actually, unless there are traffic lights, the car is usually at fault in any situation when it comes to pedestrian vs. car -accidents. If you hit a pedestrian on a zebra crossing, or while passing another car (when there's 2 or more lanes going to the same direction) that's stopped in front of a crosswalk, you're at fault (if there aren't traffic lights). Basically, even if a pedestrian is within (I don't remember the exact measure) 1m (~3 feet) outside a crosswalk painted to the pavement, the car must always give them way, except if there are separate traffic lights for pedestrian traffic. Basically, cars should never stop on a crosswalk, even if just waiting for a spot to get to a crossing road or such, although in practice it happens all the time.

EUCs are a bit difficult in that regard, since it's not fully certain whether they're pedestrians or bicycles. There are stricter (and complex) rules for bicycle vs. car -traffic, but self-balancing vehicles can be either pedestrians or bicycles depending on their power and max speed.

For bikes, someone once made a guide with examples that shows something like 100+ different situations and how / who has to yield for who, sample:

 

[RockyTop]

4 minutes ago, esaj said:

Different place, different rules: here a car rider hitting a pedestrian or bicycle on a crosswalk (without separate traffic lights for pedestrian / bicycle traffic) is always at fault. If you hit a pedestrian / bicycle on a zebra crossing, or while passing another car (when there's 2 or more lanes going to the same direction) that's stopped in front of a crosswalk, you're at fault (if there aren't traffic lights). Basically, even if a pedestrian or a bicycle is within (I don't remember the exact measure) 1m (~3 feet) outside a crosswalk painted to the pavement, the car must always give them way, except if there are separate traffic lights for pedestrian traffic.

Same here in the US. The pedestrians have the right of way. The problem is that cars have the option to turn at a red light and commonly forget to look for pedestrians while looking for a window of opportunity. 

I have been hit twice In the crosswalk as a pedestrian. I ended up on the hood without injury. Luckily they were cars and not trucks. This is why I am now a proud downtown J walker. You only have to worry about cars coming from one direction at a time. 

[Darrell Wesh]

2 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Same here in the US. The pedestrians have the right of way. The problem is that cars have the option to turn at a red light and commonly forget to look for pedestrians while looking for a window of opportunity. 

I have been hit twice In the crosswalk as a pedestrian. I ended up on the hood without injury. Luckily they were cars and not trucks. This is why I am now a proud downtown J walker. You only have to worry about cars coming from one direction at a time. 

It’s funny that something that was created to make pedestrians safe is where you go to die. Oh the irony. 

I avoid crosswalks like the plague. Especially on an EUC since no one wants to stop for non pedestrians trying to cross no matter how slow 

[esaj]

16 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Same here in the US. The pedestrians have the right of way. The problem is that cars have the option to turn at a red light and commonly forget to look for pedestrians while looking for a window of opportunity. 

I have been hit twice In the crosswalk as a pedestrian. I ended up on the hood without injury. Luckily they were cars and not trucks. This is why I am now a proud downtown J walker. You only have to worry about cars coming from one direction at a time. 

I actually edited that (a couple of times) since the text you quoted, I forgot for a moment that the bicycle rules are much more complex here, actually ridiculously complex     And yes, you shouldn't really ever trust that the car traffic is following the rules to the letter,  for example the "never pass a car on another lane stopped in front of a crosswalk" -rule is broken on a crosswalk I pass often all the time. Like, much more people break the rule than follow it, it's more unusual that someone actually follows it.

Still, the system "works". Or common sense works, like look around you, and don't stare at your smart phone all the time (as a pedestrian, when riding an EUC, you shouldn't really look at your smartphone ever while riding, although probably most people glance at it from time to time). The traffic incidents here are in the end pretty minor usually, and the traffic in general is relatively "easy", compared to what I saw during 3 months touring SE Asia, now that's crazy traffic...  Did you know Vietnam has something like 45 million scooters on the roads? Of course most of them are centered in the two big cities, Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City (ex-Saigon).

[travsformation]

Here in Spain it's illegal to ride on the sidewalk, so I very rarely do so (only in areas where there's no bike lane and the traffic is too heavy/crazy/fast to ride on the road).

So when I do, I have to be extra cautious, 'cause no matter what happens, I'll always be legally at fault. If I have enough space to pass safely, I generally do so going no faster than the speed of a light jog. I only use my bell (electric bell attached to wrist-guard, following @Rehab1's example) when the pedestrian is in the middle of the sidewalk and I'm unable to pass, and always from a considerable distance so there's enough time for them to hear me, turn around, get even further in my way, stare at me in bewilderment (aka "WTF is that thing coming towards me"), overcome their stupor, figure out that regardless of what the hell I'm riding they should probably get out of my way, and then finally do so. So I'd say,, to be on the safe side, I have to warn them 1/2km (1/3 mile) in advance  

On bike lanes, on the the other hand, I'm a total asshole (you're not alone, @LanghamP !!!). They're too new a concept for people to grasp here, as exemplified by this image:

"What a wonderful little pathway just for us, dear!"

 

Or this one (not even city planners seem to grasp how a bike lane should work...)

 

Pedestrians walk along bike lanes, cross them without looking, jump out in front of you with no warning...In the city centre, where the status quo is 1 bicycle for every 10 people in the bike lane, my thumb is on the bell more often than not, while my other fist tends to be shaking in the air as you'd stereotypically expect a Spaniard to do (and as seen in my very befitting profile pic)

Useful? Probably not. Counter-productive? Probably. Satisfying? Very much so

 

 

[travsformation]

BTW, @Freewheeler , I found the poll format a bit confusing. For me it would be clearer if the first 4 answers were introduced with preceded by the question "Do you call out to pedestrians that you intend to pass?", and the other ones were labelled (instead of Opt. 1, Opt. 2, etc.) as 1.A, 1.B, 1.C, 2.A, 2B, 2.C., etc.

Did anyone else find the format confusing? If it was just me, forget I said anything. It's Carnaval here so I'm a bit hung over today. My brain isn't fully operational...

 

Edit/P.S. This post wasn't meant to be critical, hope it didn't sound that way. This poll is a great idea! And as I said...brain not work too good today....

 

P.P.S. Any statisticians out there up to making a poll on rider-pedestrian accidents and crossing the data with the answers in this poll to establish which approach leads to fewer accidents? 

[Mike Sacristan]

In other news. The day before yesterday I was out riding and a woman with four dogs was occupying the whole shared walking/bike path.
I used my bell and she promptly gathered her dogs and moved to the side.
As I passed she thanked me by saying "Thank you for using your bell!" and gave me a smile.

Wow!
 

[Smoother]

4 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

In other news. The day before yesterday I was out riding and a woman with four dogs was occupying the whole shared walking/bike path.
I used my bell and she promptly gathered her dogs and moved to the side.
As I passed she thanked me by saying "Thank you for using your bell!" and gave me a smile.

Wow!
 

People do appreciate the bell, because the alternative is some asphole startling the hell out of them by passing from behind at high speed and usually very close (usually a cyclist just because they are the predominant high speed device pedestrians encounter).  I thank people for using their bell too. Did it just last week while standing on a narrow pedestrian bridge, admiring the view.  I also cuss those that don't (if they were too close and too fast). 

Last year an old lady stopped me and told me, nicely, that when I passed her earlier I should have sounded a bell.  I told her that because the path was about 14 feet wide and we were on opposite sides and I wasn't going that fast, it wasn't necessary.  My point is, pedestrians would prefer to be warned something fast is approaching from behind. Of course there are always those genetic mutants that jump into your path upon hearing a warning, but as we all know they are out there we all know to sound our devices in time to allow for this erratic idiocy.  My favorite are the ones that step left after you call out "on your left" How do these people dress themselves? 

[Darrell Wesh]

16 minutes ago, Smoother said:

People do appreciate the bell, because the alternative is some asphole startling the hell out of them by passing from behind at high speed and usually very close (usually a cyclist just because they are the predominant high speed device pedestrians encounter).  I thank people for using their bell too. Did it just last week while standing on a narrow pedestrian bridge, admiring the view.  I also cuss those that don't (if they were too close and too fast). 

Last year an old lady stopped me and told me, nicely, that when I passed her earlier I should have sounded a bell.  I told her that because the path was about 14 feet wide and we were on opposite sides and I wasn't going that fast, it wasn't necessary.  My point is, pedestrians would prefer to be warned something fast is approaching from behind. Of course there are always those genetic mutants that jump into your path upon hearing a warning, but as we all know they are out there we all know to sound our devices in time to allow for this erratic idiocy.  My favorite are the ones that step left after you call out "on your left" How do these people dress themselves? 

You have to imagine that they only hear “left” because they’re spaced out and thinking about something else. Only after you’ve just gotten out “on your” do they hear you and give you their attention and can only process that you said “left” so of course they’re going to go to their left because that’s what was just said.