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Things the manufacturers don't tell you.

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4 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you and side with @LanghamP

There are two kinds of people. Those that follow the rules and those that don’t because experience tells them it doesn’t work.

Similar to people who cross intersections in the middle of the road and wait on the concrete barriers between traffic vs having to deal with getting hit going along the crosswalk on a 4 way intersection with turning vehicles. 

Just because it’s the rules doesn’t make it the safest option or best option. Experience tells me that most of the time calling out won’t even register in a distracted pedestrians mind and they’ll do something completely unpredictable trying to figure out what they just heard. 

Have you ever tried to tell someone something who wasn’t paying attention? How many times have they said “what?” and struggled to understand what you just said. Screaming at them from a distance that you’re coming on the left doesn’t work much of the time. You have those people that can’t even tell their left from right and actually go IN to the path you tell them you’re coming in.  

Of course you should slow while passing them, but experience once again tells me that most people will not act erratically right before you pass and dive into your path. Once again you should only call out if they are blocking the path by straddling the middle. Oren times people on one extreme side are already giving faster moving people space and don’t want to hear a biker screaming at them something they’re already doing 

Sorry this topic was not the Thread topic. I have created a proper topic thread if you or others wish to continue this discussion. 

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Rant:

Another thing they don't tell you is that EUCs are designed for seemingly smaller asian feet.  Someday we might get an American sized EUC, with 30 cm long pedals and higher off the ground so pedals don't scrape often on slow tight turns.

The recent improvements from 20 cm pedals to 25 is great, but only on Inmotion V10F and $100 adder for King Songs.

Without these bigger pedals your feet will hurt if you are above average size and don't wear boots.

Edited by DanCar
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3 hours ago, DanCar said:

Rant:

Another thing they don't tell you is that EUCs are designed for seemingly smaller asian feet.  Someday we might get an American sized EUC, with 30 cm long pedals and higher off the ground so pedals don't scrap often on slow tight turns.

The recent improvements from 20 cm pedals to 25 is great, but only on Inmotion V10F and $100 adder for King Songs.

Without these bigger pedals your feet will hurt if you are above average size and don't wear boots.

Well, I did not want to over react to your post.

You are right, sort off, but...

I am not sure the manufs ignore the US "footprint". This is a much bigger can of worms than you realize from a design point of view.

I am not sure I really want to enter into a counter rant of 300 words. 

Suffice to say that pedal shape, height, length, angle and wheel sensitivity are a blend that is not as trivial as one may want to think specially considering the different riding styles  that our wheels have to deal with.

Enough said, for the moment...

BTW this is why some people have so many different Wheels, they ride one for the "mood" they are in..

Edited by pico
corr
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On 2/23/2019 at 7:14 PM, pico said:
AI (Artificial Intelligence) driven hardness of pedals. Like a modern automatic transmission, the wheel will guess the driving style in less than 2 seconds and act accordingly.

Everything else made sense except this... I'm no AI expert, but saying that the "pedals are AI-driven" sounds like marketing hype, what would that actually mean? 

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Just now, esaj said:

Everything else made sense except this... I'm no AI expert, but saying that the "pedals are AI-driven" sounds like marketing hype, what would that actually mean? 

In my world there is no hype. ;)

If you have driven a late model Honda Fit, you will quickly notice that the car kind of guess what you want. Performance or Economy. I would just like to have a similar algorithm for wheel hardness or sensitivity...

Cruise or Wild. I don't want to take my phone out to change sensitivity while I am riding...(Could open another can of worms, as usual)

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On 2/22/2019 at 11:12 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

It would be quicker and easier to list the things the manufacturers tell us and the things they don't lie about;)

"Manual... what's that?" Quote by every single manufacturer.:rolleyes:

-

Don't be scared by some reported failure rates. These are dealer-aggregated failures for any reason (DOA wheels, ... - anything).

A wheel just dying mid-ride and faceplanting/crashing you is extremely, absurdly rare. We know from experience. It simply just doesn't happen. Some exceptions may be older and weaker wheels up to the V8 (which may have weaker electronics or are too easily overpowered), but certainly not the newer and stronger ones.

But it's nice that you understand the fundamental principles of EUCs: you can overpower any wheel by principle (just go fast enough and ignore the warnings), and also any electronics failure during riding means a horrible faceplant. Every rider should "get" that. That's why the protective gear one needs anyways (for crashes you or others cause) is also the insurance against this extremely, extremely rare occurrence.

I can't recall a single reported mid-ride electronics failure faceplant on any modern wheel where the reason was just "stopped working without excuse".

You didn't read my report about my GT16 turning off while I was going 30kph? Probably BMS failure, as the battery packs was the oldest part of the EUC... and it was V1, which contained a bad batch of BMSs AFAIK. The likelihood of other GT16s failing in the same manner? For V2 and V3, very slight.

But it does happen. And if we don't refurbish and replace stuff continuously it will eventually happen to 100% of the wheels that see heavy use.

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2 hours ago, pico said:

In my world there is no hype. ;)

If you have driven a late model Honda Fit, you will quickly notice that the car kind of guess what you want. Performance or Economy. I would just like to have a similar algorithm for wheel hardness or sensitivity...

Cruise or Wild. I don't want to take my phone out to change sensitivity while I am riding...(Could open another can of worms, as usual)

Honda Fit and performance in the same sentence.

It all makes sense now

:lol:  

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5 hours ago, DanCar said:

Another thing they don't tell you is that EUCs are designed for seemingly smaller asian feet. 

I have EU shoe size 45 and have no complaints about the pedals of my Z10 or GT16, tbh.

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14 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Honda Fit and performance in the same sentence.

It all makes sense now

Lol!

Touché! ( but I don't own one...)

Edited by pico
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3 hours ago, esaj said:

Everything else made sense except this... I'm no AI expert, but saying that the "pedals are AI-driven" sounds like marketing hype, what would that actually mean? 

Pffff ... you should stay with the times. The functionality he described has existed for years now on euc's. It can be found in the Pulse Glider, to give one example.

 

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1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

You didn't read my report about my GT16 turning off while I was going 30kph? Probably BMS failure, as the battery packs was the oldest part of the EUC... and it was V1, which contained a bad batch of BMSs AFAIK. The likelihood of other GT16s failing in the same manner? For V2 and V3, very slight.

I file a Rockwheel GT16 V1 under "old wheel":)... nothing one could even buy nowadays any longer.

1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

But it does happen. And if we don't refurbish and replace stuff continuously it will eventually happen to 100% of the wheels that see heavy use.

So many people with >10000km on their wheels, and still no such reports. I find it much more likely that wheels will simply be thrown away because they're old and worn before any failure happens. But I guess if you try and ride until something happens, finally something will happen eventually.

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26 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

if you try and ride until something happens, finally something will happen

Now there is something nobody can deny :D 

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3 hours ago, esaj said:

Everything else made sense except this... I'm no AI expert, but saying that the "pedals are AI-driven" sounds like marketing hype, what would that actually mean? 

Are you sure? ;)

 

47160620472_8cd0a42e60_b.jpg

 

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On 2/22/2019 at 11:50 PM, Heyzeus said:

given that all will fail eventually for certain components it would be good to know the expected mileage or duty life of the component from the manufacturer.

like if King song says that on average they expect their boards to last somewhere between 5000 to 8000 miles then that would be a good thing to know, so one could engage in some preventative maintenance like say replacing the controller board at 5000 miles.

I really don't think it is that syraight forward. Both electronics and mechanical parts are combined to make up an EUC. That itself makes predictions difficult. I will add more later to why. But in short it has to do with environment and how an item is used.

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1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

User serviceable modular design sound swell.

Another thing that should be all pervasive is an industry standard for a self-check routine in the EUC. 

Reporting on battery health, bad cells, BMS errors, control board overloads, exceptions or any abnormalities and so on. Presented in an easy to evaluate interface:

Battery check - pack A: 90% health, no degraded cells / pack B: 92% health, no degraded cells / pack C: 85% health, one degraded cell 70% health / pack D: 87% health, no degraded cells
BMS check: BMS A: no errors / BMS B: current spike reported, within normal parameters / BMS C: compensatory balancing slightly outside normal parameters / BMS D: no errors
Control board: Gyro A: all reports normal / Gyro B: all reports normal / Gyro C: all reports normal / Capacitors: within normal parameters / MOS: All mos within normal parameters
Firmware: Exceptions within normal parameters.

Total system health 90%, you're good to go!

Sounds like the FMI-codes/levels/whatever you call them (Failure Mode Identifier) in automotive standards, they tell additional information about (suspected) problems with some value ("data", which could be anything like in case of an EUC, battery cell voltage, motor RPM, component temperature or angle reported by IMU etc.) by indicating how severely out of whack the value is from what it should be, or how it's otherwise suspicious:

FMI  SAE Text
0  Data valid but above normal operational range - Most severe level
1  Data valid but below normal operational range - Most severe level
2  Data erratic, intermittent or incorrect
3  Voltage above normal, or shorted to high source
4  Voltage below normal, or shorted to low source
5  Current below normal or open circuit
6  Current above normal or grounded circuit
7  Mechanical system not responding or out of adjustment
8  Abnormal frequency or pulse width or period
9  Abnormal update rate
10  Abnormal rate of change
11  Root cause not known
12  Bad intelligent device or component
13  Out of calibration
14  Special instructions
15  Data valid but above normal operating range - Least severe level
16  Data valid but above normal operating range - Moderately severe level
17  Data valid but below normal operating range - Least severe level
18  Data valid but below normal operating range - Moderately severe level
...

Although I highly doubt EUC manufacturers would adopt standards from automotive industry :P

Edited by esaj
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45 minutes ago, esaj said:

Sounds like the FMI-codes/levels/whatever you call them (Failure Mode Identifier) in automotive standards, they tell additional information about (suspected) problems with some value ("data", which could be anything like in case of an EUC, battery cell voltage, motor RPM, component temperature or angle reported by IMU etc.) by indicating how severely out of whack the value is from what it should be, or how it's otherwise suspicious:

FMI  SAE Text
0  Data valid but above normal operational range - Most severe level
1  Data valid but below normal operational range - Most severe level
2  Data erratic, intermittent or incorrect
3  Voltage above normal, or shorted to high source
4  Voltage below normal, or shorted to low source
5  Current below normal or open circuit
6  Current above normal or grounded circuit
7  Mechanical system not responding or out of adjustment
8  Abnormal frequency or pulse width or period
9  Abnormal update rate
10  Abnormal rate of change
11  Root cause not known
12  Bad intelligent device or component
13  Out of calibration
14  Special instructions
15  Data valid but above normal operating range - Least severe level
16  Data valid but above normal operating range - Moderately severe level
17  Data valid but below normal operating range - Least severe level
18  Data valid but below normal operating range - Moderately severe level
...

Although I highly doubt EUC manufacturers would adopt standards from automotive industry :P

They probably won't but something like the FMI-codes would do wonders both for rider protection and for customer service.

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I think this is great, but contrary to cars, people don't buy an EUC and run it for 10+ years.

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I don't see why not though. Battery packs can be re-celled and aside from a tyre every now and then and a wheel bearing even less frequently, there's not a lot else to wear out. People keep E-bikes for many years, with 1000's of KM.

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The Wh conspiracy or why the + versions suck(under some circumstances)   Ex V5F+  Ninebot E+
 
480Wh is 480Wh right?
 
Well, it depends what cells you are using, at what temperature and at what current (read also configuration, 2P, 3P etc...).
 
Read the spreadsheet of any battery and you will find that the Wh is specified at a certain current and temperature.
 
Cells for a given form factor and chemistry are optimized for capacity OR current capability(read low internal resistance). 
 
It turns out that if you are looking at super acceleration the + versions usually suck while they will carry you further at a reasonable speed.
I also suspect that many plus versions do more poorly at low temperatures.
 
So a typical conversation may go like this between EEs and management/marketing:
 
MM   They love our wheel but customer complain that there is not enough range!
EE    There are those new 4.200mah cells but their internal resistance suck.
MM   So what? Slap in a new battery pack with those cells and make some more bucks and start charging premium! Just call it the XXX + !
EE     ???
 
Again, please feel free to correct or object, I am still willing to learn...
 
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