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Things the manufacturers don't tell you.


Freewheeler

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I have learned a great deal of information on this board and I'm very appreciative.

I feel that quite a few of the things I've learned should be known to all people who are considering getting an EUC. You probably won't see this stuff in the marketing materials for EUC's. 

WHEN WILL YOU FALL?

This is an inherently dangerous activity. Don't think that because you're an extreme sportsperson you won't fall or that because you're going slow you don't need safety gear. All riders should wear safety gear regardless of skill level, ride distance, or speed. Like motorcycle riders, there are two categories of EUC riders.. those who have fallen and those that will. 

The reasons for falls can be diluted into three categories; user error, malfunctions and force majeure. 

USER ERROR

Beyond the obvious falls caused by inexperience, user error refers to incidents like riding into potholes and curbs. It is the user's responsibility to "ride ahead" of their wheel. 

Some wheel malfunctions are due to user error. Poorly maintained wheels have an increased likelihood of malfunctions. 

Some falls that could be attributed to force majeure can also be attributed to user error. For example, if you see a dog on a leash in your path and do not make the handler aware of your presence then any incident resulting from that animal's actions was preventable and therefore your fault. 

MALFUNCTIONS

It's always good practice to have at least a cursory knowledge of your equipment. Some contributors on this board recommend inspecting wheels for obvious quality issues that can lead to catastrphic failure. This includes brand new products as well. Take the time to read the posts for tips on what to look for in your new wheel.

The good news is tht malfunctions on well maintained, quality EUCs that result in a fall are extremely rare. That said, malfunctions can and do occur so it's important to prepare as much as possible.

FORCE MAJEURE

This category includes threats such as falling branches, darting animals, toys and such. It's important to note that some of these incidents can be avoided. Take care to minimize your exposure to them whenever possible. Avoid Controlled Riding Into Threatening or Tragic Environmental Realms (CRITTERs?)

SUMMARY

The rate of incidence for two of the categories above can be reduced (if not eliminated) but it is the threat that cannot be mitigated that necessitates wearing safety gear on all rides. 

SPECIFIC TIPS

Overlean: It's just common sense but all wheels have a max speed. If you're riding at max speed then there is no more the wheel can do to keep you upright should you choose to lean further. Some models will alert you with alarms, tilt back (or both) at certain speeds. It's important to heed those warnings.

Charge levels: A low battery level can also present a threat. Some models will alert you with an alarm at low levels. It's important to heed those warnings.

Water damage: Some wheels are better at resisting water damage. If yours is not among them then take steps to at least protect the power switch and the charging port.

 

 

________________________________________

To all readers: If my information is wrong or incomplete I invite corrections. I also invite more topics. What else haven't I mentioned?

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Funny, I remember my physics teacher:

He used to say: people don't read the specs... I hated him. Later in life I understood.

Manufacturer actually tell you all of the above.

Failure rate? After seeing the tumbles those wheels are subjected to, I am always surprised they keep on ticking.

You maybe right on infant mortality. On the other hand I would have liked to see failure rates after this initial phase.

Jumping curbs? Anyone? Read the manual.

Just for another smile. Operating temperature: read again the specs.

IP ratings, again read, I can go on and on...

Slush and burried in snow anyone?...

Some fools even hack carefully tuned firmware...(hey, I may do it...)

There is even one that I suspect is repairing wheels to put them back in service or on ebay...

A lot of fails don't resist careful investigation.

For your info, I am just a stupid retired electronics design engineer...

And, yes, I also do stupid things with my wheels... like puting 175 lbs on one pedal.

No, no and no say the SPECS... ;)

 

 

p.s. I like your thread, we can also add:

"and users don't want manufacturers to know they do with their wheels"

 

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8 minutes ago, pico said:

Manufacturer actually tell you all of the above.

I guess I spoke out of turn. I bought my wheel used and finding the owner's manual is not as easy as I thought it would be.

The stuff you mentioned are great. Thanks!

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Both the Kingsong and the Ninebot manual essentially have the same warnings, but the Ninebot has pretty pictures.

To be blunt, there isn't a single warning I haven't broken except the one that says don't be above 50 years old, but all those warnings are entirely valid and would keep you out of trouble.

The dumbest warning ignored was the doorframe warning. It would be straightforward not to hit your head on the doorframe, but if you're on an EUC there's a tendency to look at the ground rather than up.

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30 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

The dumbest warning ignored was the doorframe warning. It would be straightforward not to hit your head on the doorframe, but if you're on an EUC there's a tendency to look at the ground rather than up.

Great points. My first day upright I brushed against some low hanging branches and it nearly knocked me off!

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It would be quicker and easier to list the things the manufacturers tell us and the things they don't lie about;)

"Manual... what's that?" Quote by every single manufacturer.:rolleyes:

-

Don't be scared by some reported failure rates. These are dealer-aggregated failures for any reason (DOA wheels, ... - anything).

A wheel just dying mid-ride and faceplanting/crashing you is extremely, absurdly rare. We know from experience. It simply just doesn't happen. Some exceptions may be older and weaker wheels up to the V8 (which may have weaker electronics or are too easily overpowered), but certainly not the newer and stronger ones.

But it's nice that you understand the fundamental principles of EUCs: you can overpower any wheel by principle (just go fast enough and ignore the warnings), and also any electronics failure during riding means a horrible faceplant. Every rider should "get" that. That's why the protective gear one needs anyways (for crashes you or others cause) is also the insurance against this extremely, extremely rare occurrence.

I can't recall a single reported mid-ride electronics failure faceplant on any modern wheel where the reason was just "stopped working without excuse".

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15 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

wheel just dying mid-ride and faceplanting/crashing you is extremely, absurdly rare. We know from experience. It simply just doesn't happen. Some exceptions may be older and weaker wheels up to the V8 (which may have weaker electronics or are too easily overpowered), but certainly not the newer and stronger ones.

I get your point and agree...but nonetheless i would say it more the other way around:

EVERY wheel will fail while mid-riding...it is just a question of time. Yes, we see it extremly rare, as most dont drive that crazy amount of miles. But in the end , over time they will fail all...may it be battery, wires, or one of the hundred parts on the board. Just recently saw a FB post of a wheel blowing its board after stunning 16000 miles :-) 

Please, Dont  take my answer to serious @meepmeepmayer...i know you got that all :-) 

It is more for the others, to explain that there is No redundance whatsoever in our wheels.

And if it is just that 5% more take a helmet when they are aware of it :-) 

For all really in to EUC riding i would definitly advise to look inside the wheel and check the board once in a while :-) 

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22 minutes ago, US69 said:

I get your point and agree...but nonetheless i would say it more the other way around:

EVERY wheel will fail while mid-riding...it is just a question of time. Yes, we see it extremly rare, as most dont drive that crazy amount of miles. But in the end , over time they will fail all...may it be battery, wires, or one of the hundred parts on the board. Just recently saw a FB post of a wheel blowing its board after stunning 16000 miles :-) 

Please, Dont  take my answer to serious @meepmeepmayer...i know you got that all :-) 

It is more for the others, to explain that there is No redundance whatsoever in our wheels.

And if it is just that 5% more take a helmet when they are aware of it :-) 

For all really in to EUC riding i would definitly advise to look inside the wheel and check the board once in a while :-) 

given that all will fail eventually for certain components it would be good to know the expected mileage or duty life of the component from the manufacturer.

like if King song says that on average they expect their boards to last somewhere between 5000 to 8000 miles then that would be a good thing to know, so one could engage in some preventative maintenance like say replacing the controller board at 5000 miles.

I would think of it like how one thinks of replacing the timing belt in their Honda or Toyota at a certain mileage.

 

Though given how rare it is for people to get into these upper mileages before replacing their wheels I can see why they haven't necessarily published such data.  

Maybe when these wheels are even more commonplace and more people use them for commuting we will see such data

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2 hours ago, Leyline said:

LOL doorframe warning, being 6'4" I'm going to keep this one in mind.

 Look out when traveling threw parking garages!! That is the one that got me.  The sign said 6'7".  I just did not do the math.  I hit a sprinkler line. 

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5 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

preventative maintenance like say replacing the controller board at 5000 miles.

I would never do that. If not broken don't fix it. Unless you have been doing pendulum for 5000 miles... ;)

Don't forget infant mortality on electronic boards...

Dismantle the wheel and cause a wire to be squeezed by accident naaaaahh!!!

 

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6 minutes ago, pico said:

I would never do that. If not broken don't fix it. Unless you have been doing pendulum for 5000 miles... ;)

Don't forget infant mortality on electronic boards...

I agree. @pico designs electronics and I repair them. I would say on average an existing good board is better than a new one. ( unless the capacitors are weak)  

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Is there a way to build in internal testing of board components such that a board could self-report if components were nearing failure.  At my old job, we would sometimes have tons of spares for systems that were considered long life (decade-plus) so that systems could easily be replaced with the same system long past when they stopped being manufactured so software wouldnt have to be rewritten and tested on new systems.  but even then it was expected that some of those spare systems would fail due to oxidative stress over time and conditions of where they were Warehoused.  there we didn't know when a system would fail but we just plan under the assumption that what over time and made sure to buy enough to cover it for the time we wanted it to be covered.

 

I wonder if it would be possible for a system to self monitor the health of its mosfets or the resistance of its electrical pathways, capacitor health and so on.  Again, not an electrical engineer, so I don't know if this is a feasible thing at all.

 

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Everything is possible...

Corporate wants it cheap to manufacture.

Engineers want it perfect and wait until they are sure it works as planned with the best possible components and redundancy.

Marketing want to sell it NOW and of course promised the moon...

Technicians want it easy to repair.

Customer want it cheap. Performant and reliable.

Do you see the contradictions?

 

Oooops! I forgot, distributors want a high profit margin...

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10 minutes ago, pico said:

Everything is possible...

Corporate wants it cheap to manufacture.

Engineers want it perfect and wait until they are sure it works as planned with the best possible components and redundancy.

Marketing want to sell it NOW.

Technicians want it easy to repair.

Customer want it cheap. Performance and reliable.

Do you see the contradictions?

I am going to print this out and place it on my wall. 

We do  Quality ,Fast ,Cheap work  ( pick two ) 

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50 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

given that all will fail eventually for certain components it would be good to know the expected mileage or duty life of the component from the manufacturer.

Great comments. I plan on replacing my current wheel anyway but I'd love to know when my next wheel enters its sunset miles.

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20 hours ago, Freewheeler said:

 

Some falls that could be attributed to force majeure can also be attributed to user error. For example, if you see a dog on a leash in your path and do not make the handler aware of your presence then any incident resulting from that animal's actions was preventable and therefore your fault. 

 

 

It’s COMPLETELY up to the owner of said animal to have that animal UNDER CONTROL when out in public spaces. If your dog requires cyclists and runners to have to call out to warn you in advance then your animal is too dangerous to be walked that close to bystanders. Period. 

I should not have to waste my breath calling out that I’m coming unless you’re taking up the middle of the path. Calling out would negatively assume that every dog has a homocidal agenda with fast moving objects passing by. I should not have to fear for my safety and make this assumption every time I see a dog on a leash. 

I love dogs but this is a huge pet peeve of mine when owners are surprised that their dog suddenly yanks them one way and tries attacking whatever is whizzing by on the path or trail causing the victim to have to swerve or ride off-road to avoid damages. More than once i had to avoid a dog that was being confrontational taking up the entire path and I had to ride in the mud and almost fall off my EUC due to the tire spinning in the mud or losing traction. 

If you have a dog that does this please be courteous and YOU walk in the grass or off road so others can stay on the path. Just because it is an animal doesn’t excuse it from breaking the law and trying to attack people and objects on a public space. There have been close calls where I was riding by and a dog would suddenly jump right out towards me and start barking, coming extremely close to my wheel running it over. 

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1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

It’s COMPLETELY up to the owner of said animal to have that animal UNDER CONTROL when out in public spaces. If your dog requires cyclists and runners to have to call out to warn you in advance then your animal is too dangerous to be walked that close to bystanders. Period. 

I agree! We shouldn't have to compensate for the lack of common sense of some people have when it comes to controlling their children and their pets.

The flip side of this issue is that by and large we're pretty stealthy. Even a responsible owner could be caught off guard by our passing. That's not an excuse, it's just reality. 

I choose to be alive and wheeling because after all.. what's it hurt to give a shout out? Or, more to the point, who's it gonna hurt if I don't? 

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1 hour ago, tessa25 said:

Colorado requests that cyclers call out before passing pedestrians. Common courtesy.

I used to do that. I do not do that anymore, because our safety (theirs and mine) is more important than the pedestrian being momentarily surprised.

I have the utmost respect for pedestrians, and that means they can behave however they want so long as it meets the constraints of not hitting you.

If you call out to a pedestrian then they jump around, or not jump around, in whatever direction they want to. If they jump into your path then there's some time "renegotiating" who owns what part of the path.

Don't be this guy.

Pass the pedestrian in a way that makes it extraordinarily difficult for them to jump into you.

In practice, that means two things.

--Passing the pedestrian before he knows you are there, thereby mitigating his semi-erratic movement.

And

--Timing the passing so that his foot as you pass him is closest to you is on the ground. For example, if you are passing a pedestrian on his left and his left foot is on the ground, then he cannot easily jump to his left because he would either need to cross his feet or do a quick ball-change.

While most of use riders complain about pedestrians being erratic and random when you surprise them from their rear, this isn't strictly true; pedestrians jump in predictable direction depending on which way they are already falling

If a pedestrian has their weight already on their left foot, they will jump to their right.

If a pedestrian has their weight already on their right foot, they will jump to their left.

If a pedestrian has their weight on both feet, then they can jump in any direction, but they will almost always turn left because most people in the US are used to doing a sight check over their left shoulder. Presumably our fellow Brits and new Zealanders would shoulder check over their right.

Next time you have a group photo, make a loud noise directly behind them, and count who has their head turned left. I'd bet it'd be above 90%.

 

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9 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Next time you have a group photo, make a loud noise directly behind them, and count who has their head turned left. I'd bet it'd be above 90%.

Ok, then can I tell you how many punched me in the nose? 😆

You've brought up a great point though. To quote K in Men in Black: People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it!

220px-Tommy-lee-jones-as-agent-k-in-men-in-black.jpg

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38 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I used to do that. I do not do that anymore, because our safety (theirs and mine) is more important than the pedestrian being momentarily surprised.

I have the utmost respect for pedestrians, and that means they can behave however they want so long as it meets the constraints of not hitting you.

If you call out to a pedestrian then they jump around, or not jump around, in whatever direction they want to. If they jump into your path then there's some time "renegotiating" who owns what part of the path.

Don't be this guy.

Pass the pedestrian in a way that makes it extraordinarily difficult for them to jump into you.

In practice, that means two things.

--Passing the pedestrian before he knows you are there, thereby mitigating his semi-erratic movement.

And

--Timing the passing so that his foot as you pass him is closest to you is on the ground. For example, if you are passing a pedestrian on his left and his left foot is on the ground, then he cannot easily jump to his left because he would either need to cross his feet or do a quick ball-change.

While most of use riders complain about pedestrians being erratic and random when you surprise them from their rear, this isn't strictly true; pedestrians jump in predictable direction depending on which way they are already falling

If a pedestrian has their weight already on their left foot, they will jump to their right.

If a pedestrian has their weight already on their right foot, they will jump to their left.

If a pedestrian has their weight on both feet, then they can jump in any direction, but they will almost always turn left because most people in the US are used to doing a sight check over their left shoulder. Presumably our fellow Brits and new Zealanders would shoulder check over their right.

Next time you have a group photo, make a loud noise directly behind them, and count who has their head turned left. I'd bet it'd be above 90%.

 

I absolutely agree about NOT calling out to warn pedestrians. They almost always turn and drift into your path or become erratic and jump into a path you were intending to squeeze by in. 

However, I think it’s pushing it to think most people can see which foot someone is on while cycling at speed. 

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1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I used to do that. I do not do that anymore, because our safety (theirs and mine) is more important than the pedestrian being momentarily surprised.

I have the utmost respect for pedestrians, and that means they can behave however they want so long as it meets the constraints of not hitting you.

If you call out to a pedestrian then they jump around, or not jump around, in whatever direction they want to. If they jump into your path then there's some time "renegotiating" who owns what part of the path.

Don't be this guy.

Pass the pedestrian in a way that makes it extraordinarily difficult for them to jump into you.

In practice, that means two things.

--Passing the pedestrian before he knows you are there, thereby mitigating his semi-erratic movement.

And

--Timing the passing so that his foot as you pass him is closest to you is on the ground. For example, if you are passing a pedestrian on his left and his left foot is on the ground, then he cannot easily jump to his left because he would either need to cross his feet or do a quick ball-change.

While most of use riders complain about pedestrians being erratic and random when you surprise them from their rear, this isn't strictly true; pedestrians jump in predictable direction depending on which way they are already falling

If a pedestrian has their weight already on their left foot, they will jump to their right.

If a pedestrian has their weight already on their right foot, they will jump to their left.

If a pedestrian has their weight on both feet, then they can jump in any direction, but they will almost always turn left because most people in the US are used to doing a sight check over their left shoulder. Presumably our fellow Brits and new Zealanders would shoulder check over their right.

Next time you have a group photo, make a loud noise directly behind them, and count who has their head turned left. I'd bet it'd be above 90%.

 

What? There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about passing pedestrians. First of all you call out to them far enough away that jumping into your path is not an issue. You should not just call out but tell them which side you are going to pass them. Most importantly you don't pass pedestrians at speeds much faster than a jogger, The pedestrian has the right away in all situations when on the sidewalk versus someone on a vehicle, powered by human or electrical/gas energy.

Passing pedestrians without warning is the worse type of behavior. Many cyclist are the worse offenders, but they won't be banned if they hit someone. When the rental scooters were left all over the place people complained but city officials did nothing. When a couple of people died on rental scooters, city officials started posturing but did nothing. When "pedestrians complained about being hit by scooter rider's city officials went into action.

There is a certain arrogance among some cyclist (I hope not EUC riders) that pedestrians should put their fate in the rider's hands who is highly skilled and will safely pass at speed as long as the pedestrians don't do something stupid. 

The burden of passing pedestrians is on us. You slow down when approaching. You call out in a conversational and pleasant tone that you are going to pass them on the ... If they don't acknowledge by turning to see who/what's coming or don't physically move further away from the side you pronounced or perhaps slow their pace, then you slow to their speed and announce your attentions again. As you make your pass you thank them for the courtesy.  

 

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5 hours ago, Jerome said:

What? There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about passing pedestrians. First of all you call out to them far enough away that jumping into your path is not an issue. You should not just call out but tell them which side you are going to pass them. Most importantly you don't pass pedestrians at speeds much faster than a jogger, The pedestrian has the right away in all situations when on the sidewalk versus someone on a vehicle, powered by human or electrical/gas energy.

Passing pedestrians without warning is the worse type of behavior. Many cyclist are the worse offenders, but they won't be banned if they hit someone. When the rental scooters were left all over the place people complained but city officials did nothing. When a couple of people died on rental scooters, city officials started posturing but did nothing. When "pedestrians complained about being hit by scooter rider's city officials went into action.

There is a certain arrogance among some cyclist (I hope not EUC riders) that pedestrians should put their fate in the rider's hands who is highly skilled and will safely pass at speed as long as the pedestrians don't do something stupid. 

The burden of passing pedestrians is on us. You slow down when approaching. You call out in a conversational and pleasant tone that you are going to pass them on the ... If they don't acknowledge by turning to see who/what's coming or don't physically move further away from the side you pronounced or perhaps slow their pace, then you slow to their speed and announce your attentions again. As you make your pass you thank them for the courtesy.  

 

Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you and side with @LanghamP

There are two kinds of people. Those that follow the rules and those that don’t because experience tells them it doesn’t work.

Similar to people who cross intersections in the middle of the road and wait on the concrete barriers between traffic vs having to deal with getting hit going along the crosswalk on a 4 way intersection with turning vehicles. 

Just because it’s the rules doesn’t make it the safest option or best option. Experience tells me that most of the time calling out won’t even register in a distracted pedestrians mind and they’ll do something completely unpredictable trying to figure out what they just heard. 

Have you ever tried to tell someone something who wasn’t paying attention? How many times have they said “what?” and struggled to understand what you just said. Screaming at them from a distance that you’re coming on the left doesn’t work much of the time. You have those people that can’t even tell their left from right and actually go IN to the path you tell them you’re coming in.  

Of course you should slow while passing them, but experience once again tells me that most people will not act erratically right before you pass and dive into your path. Once again you should only call out if they are blocking the path by straddling the middle. Oren times people on one extreme side are already giving faster moving people space and don’t want to hear a biker screaming at them something they’re already doing 

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Well, In trying to keep this thread in the right track, yes, there are things that the manufacturers DON'T WANT you to know.

As stated above the "stupid electronics design engineer" lives under unbearable constraints.

One common ploy of "stupid management" (that is how we call them) is to start PRODUCTION before we even finalized the design.

With the advent of firmware this has become HIGHLY prevalent. Guess what?

OFTEN the first batch of product is imperfect. 

As a customer, whenever I see V1.00 or V1.01 of anything, I stay away...

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