Inmotion V5f cut out/ turned off mid ride, major fall

[Smoother]

2 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

 

Also, what do you guys think about low speed crashes (under 15mph) vs higher speed crashes (say, over 18mph)? I'm my own experience, having had both, my slower speed crash was worse injury wise. My theory of why (among other factors, such as having a split second to prepare for the fall) is mainly about momentum. I feel like the physics behind a 12-13mph fall states that you'll just smack the ground harder than if you have momentum built up. My 22(ish) mph crash, I was able to mainly just slide on my pads, where my slower crash was just a hard smack to the pavement, with little sliding. Obviously, there are many factors, but curious to know of your thoughts... Certainly gearing up is a must, especially after bailing hard (once)...😜

And @Chad SlavinSlavin, I wish you a quick physical (and psychological) recovery...

I think that you make a very good point here.  I believe sliding is usually preferable to sticking the landing, unless you slide off a cliff or under as bus. And smacking almost straight down certainly does smart.  May I add a third category to your theory of( impact) relativity? That would be the "slow enough to run it off" category, which also includes walking it off.

So now we have slow and survivable, medium and very imactacious, and fast and very slide-y.  Sliding on sliders is pretty unremarkable; on ones chin, bares hands, elbows and knees....not so much.  Ironically, many of the second tier (in terms of speed) wheels max out exactly in the impact zone.

EDIT @Chad Slavin s unfortunate injuries, fall (no pun intended) squarely in this "medium and impactacious "(that's not a real word) zone.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Smoother

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

I too ride a V5F. Haven't had it cut off on me at speed, just a faceplant at same speed as you when I clipped a pedal on a wall beside me on a narrow sidewalk. I broke a rib on that fall. I hear a lot of riders stating that it's too small a wheel for heavier (around 180lbs+) riders. I can sympathize with that,  I did get the full face helmet since that crash, but I've only been wearing it when I ride my XL.  Maybe I'll just switch to the full face when I ride the V5F also, to be safer...🤪

Also, what do you guys think about low speed crashes (under 15mph) vs higher speed crashes (say, over 18mph)?   e)...😜

If you decide to go the full face helmet route, then you need one with an eps-lined chin bar. If you choose one of those silly full face helmets with no eps like the Bell 3r, then you're just buying a helmet that looks like it would protect you when it does not. I'd put any downhill bicycle helmet into this category. Get a motorcycle helmet with a Snell rating of any sort instead. You need the smaller eyeport to protect your brow, the chin bar to protect your jaw and nose, and the shield to protect your eyes from debris.

If you're doing tricks or practicing slow speed then an open helmet is fine and practically mandatory, as it's hard to catch yourself going backwards.

Otherwise, you should either wear a Snell motorcycle helmet or no helmet at all, because if you're riding with an open helmet then you think you have some head protection when you actually have little to no protection.

Your typical EUC crash begins with a faceplant and ends with a busted face, upon which the rider expresses surprise that his open faced helmet provided no protection. This is akin to someone asking you why he never has to scrape bugs off the rear windshield of his car; the answer is infuriatingly obvious.

Now if you don't wear a helmet then you'll ride with utmost care at a reasonable speed, with arms in ready position; in other words, not like how you'd ride with an open helmet. Since an open helmet provides no more protection than no helmet it all, it follows that it is the type of riding responsible for the severity of the injury.

Either:

--Go fast wearing motorcycle levels of protection,

or,

--Go slow wearing no protection, at not much higher than walking pace, in a body position expecting a cut out for any or no reason.

"I was wearing my fancy wrist guards with my piece of shit Thousand Bike Helmet on my MSuper when suddenly..."

Don't be this guy. This is the reason that most moderate speed wrecks result in severe injury compared to low or high; the rider was wearing inappropriate (read, open helmet) equipment for his speed.

Edited February 19, 2019 by LanghamP

[Rama Douglas]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

You where asking if that has happen to others...

so the answer is, yes , definitly. 

and the behaviour of your wheel points, for me, to a bad cell, at least one if not more!

The Im wheels have the behaviour that even if one cell drops below the minimum cell voltage, that the bms shuts down the wheel.

i have heard/seen a few of similiar reports to yours about v5/v8. As those wheels only have 2 parallel cell packs, the cells are a bit more stressed ....and so something like this can happen. i highly advise checking the battery by a pro before riding again.

yes, the low temp might have been a cause of the Situation, also,.but as you said that was just totally out of the blue, it sounds like a cell failure to me.

Excellent point! I was unaware of that...

[ir_fuel]

31 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

If you choose one of those silly full face helmets with no eps like the Bell 3r, then you're just buying a helmet that looks like it would protect you when it does not. I'd put any downhill bicycle helmet into this category.

why?

There are certifications for chin bars on bicycle helmets too.

It is true that you can find quite a few helmets without certification for the chin protection, but that doesn't mean your only option is a motorcycle helmet.

[ir_fuel]

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/understanding-mtb-helmet-safety

 

-->

Are full-face chin guards safety-rated?

There is a test of the chin guard in the ASTM F1952 – 15 standard. It’s a pass or fail test.

 

Do all full-face lids have to pass the ASTM F1952 – 15 test?

No, this isn't a mandatory certification. There are full-face helmets on the market that aren't certified according to ASTM F1952.

[ir_fuel]

https://enduro-mtb.com/en/lightweight-convertible-full-face-helmets-review/

 

In this test only the Fox Proframe, Giro Switchblade, Lazer Revolution FF MIPS, and MET Parachute meet the more rigorous ASTM F1952 DH standard, the same standard that certifies helmets seen on the WC DH scene.

 

I have the MET Parachute, and there are forum members that use the Giro Switchblade.

[Girth Brooks]

@ir_fuel this is great info to have. Thanks for posting.

[Darrell Wesh]

On 2/18/2019 at 11:00 AM, Chad Slavin said:

Ya no problem. I was having a fairly normal day on it, rode it a few miles just before the accident, running errands around town. Dropped all groceries off and was headed into work next, still had 3 out of 5  battery bars left, so 60% or so. I was riding at about 12 or 13 miles an hour, a comfortable pace without the tilt back or warning lady yelling at me to slow down. Was about to start tilting back to slow down as I arrived at work, but it turned off and I felt it roll forward, I didn't have time to put my arms out, so they were by my waist, and the face and jacket hit the pavement really hard and slid for 15 or 20 ft I feel like. About 15 people ran out to the bike lane to help me collect my unicycle and my backpack, and clean up the blood, helped me inside my workplace to clean up a bit, and took me to the medical clinic to get looked at and stitched up. Quite a day. Still love the electric unicycle, just dont know if anyone else ever had it randomly turn off on them while riding.

My very first and only question is: were your hands in your pocket? 

[ir_fuel]

1 minute ago, Darrell Wesh said:

My very first and only question is: were your hands in your pocket? 

Good question, and it's not clear from his text either.

I've seen quite a few EUC riders ride with their hands in their pockets. preferably without a helmet. Darwin awards at work ....

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, Girth Brooks said:

@Rama Douglas I really think there's an illusion to many EUC riders that they are fine without gear at low speeds and the only ones who risk getting hurt ride fast and loose like Tishawne does in his videos. Hitting the pavement sucks at 12 or 22 miles per hour from my experience in 36 years of falling off various wheeled vehicles.

The funny thing is a loose riding style like Tishawn’s is much better prepared to handle a fall than the typical zombie stiff, arms at side postures that plague EUC riders. With the large amount of corrections he’s always making with his arm movements and constant slaloms, he is always “driving” his EUC instead of passively “riding” on top of it.

You understand that to “drive” an EUC or turn it, you must disrupt your balance right? That is how an EUC works, by the destruction of balance. If I lose my balance(whether on purpose or not) the EUC will catch me.

Now imagine Tishawn’s style. He’s always destroying his balance. He’s always ready for a fall because he’s always off balance. By no means am I saying he’s immune to a fall, but he’s better prepared to avoid a face plant. 

 

3 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

Also, what do you guys think about low speed crashes (under 15mph) vs higher speed crashes (say, over 18mph)? I'm my own experience, having had both, my slower speed crash was worse injury wise. My theory of why (among other factors, such as having a split second to prepare for the fall) is mainly about momentum. I feel like the physics behind a 12-13mph fall states that you'll just smack the ground harder than if you have momentum built up. My 22(ish) mph crash, I was able to mainly just slide on my pads, where my slower crash was just a hard smack to the pavement, with little sliding. Obviously, there are many factors, but curious to know of your thoughts... Certainly gearing up is a must, especially after bailing hard (once)...😜

And @Chad SlavinSlavin, I wish you a quick physical (and psychological) recovery...

In my experience, I don’t think that theory is accurate. Higher speeds are almost certainly going to be worse compared to a slower speed of the same type of crash if the variables are constant. 

The difference you speak of is in readiness  for a crash. At lower speeds you probably are busy daydreaming or looking around and not focused with arms limp at your side and a cut out would catch you totally off guard. At high speeds you are much more focused and “driving” your EUC instead of passively “riding” on it. You likely have more adrenaline flowing as well which will allow you to react much faster at high speeds and instinctively instead of thinking about it.

This is the difference as to why high speeds could theoretically be less severe although too high speeds might mitigate that better preparedness. 

[Girth Brooks]

@Darrell Wesh Tishawne is a great rider for sure. He, @houseofjob , and @Marty Backe are the reason I dove into this hobby. I hope I ever get half as good as Tishawne. Doing ballet on an S2 isn't an attraction to me. Carving up, riding fast, and loose makes these things look like a real thrill to me, and it's the reason I have two now. I am very appreciative of the content they've provided. I try my best to ride loose and aware. 

[Darrell Wesh]

I’ve thought about why EUC riders ride with  hands limp at the side and I truly think it’s because we have this idea that being perfectly still is “mastery” of balancing on the unicycle. 

In the beginning, we used large arm corrections to go in a straight line and to turn, but as our bodies adapted to the EUC and muscle memory set in we no longer needed these arm contributions to control the machine. 

If we think about manual unicycle riders, even the pros still have massive amounts of arm utilization for going straight and turning. 

So imagine if we added back the control our arm contributions brought to our newly programmed/conditioned bodies that no longer need it. That is the riding style I see Tishawn has. It may look.... dangerous, but he’s figured out that by adding back an element that made you better in the beginning stages is what allows “ultimate control”. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Rama Douglas]

24 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The funny thing is a loose riding style like Tishawn’s is much better prepared to handle a fall than the typical zombie stiff, arms at side postures that plague EUC riders. With the large amount of corrections he’s always making with his arm movements and constant slaloms, he is always “driving” his EUC instead of passively “riding” on top of it.

You understand that to “drive” an EUC or turn it, you must disrupt your balance right? That is how an EUC works, by the destruction of balance. If I lose my balance(whether on purpose or not) the EUC will catch me.

Now imagine Tishawn’s style. He’s always destroying his balance. He’s always ready for a fall because he’s always off balance. By no means am I saying he’s immune to a fall, but he’s better prepared to avoid a face plant. 

 

In my experience, I don’t think that theory is accurate. Higher speeds are almost certainly going to be worse compared to a slower speed of the same type of crash if the variables are constant. 

The difference you speak of is in readiness  for a crash. At lower speeds you probably are busy daydreaming or looking around and not focused with arms limp at your side and a cut out would catch you totally off guard. At high speeds you are much more focused and “driving” your EUC instead of passively “riding” on it. You likely have more adrenaline flowing as well which will allow you to react much faster at high speeds and instinctively instead of thinking about it.

This is the difference as to why high speeds could theoretically be less severe although too high speeds might mitigate that better preparedness. 

Great points, Darrell! Thank you. LoL. The zombie apocalypse is here, and they're stiffs on EUCs...😜

At least with my faster crash, you're definitely right about knowing it's coming and preparing for it, but I do feel my momentum helped me not to hit so hard. Faster into a wall, different story altogether. Fast on to horizontal surface, not as bad as slow (in my case). Don't we have a few physicists in the forum? We need equations! LoL 😁

Edited February 19, 2019 by Rama Douglas

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I do think that you better your chances against mechanical/electrical faults (what happened to you) by riding high performance wheels, even if only used at low-performance speeds.

Your statement flashed through my mind after deciding to ride my abandoned Mten3 earlier. Unfortunately it has sat for 3 months, was at 50% charge and 30 degrees outside. After a 10 minutes of riding I decided to stop thanks to your subliminal suggestion. 

[houseofjob]

34 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I’ve thought about why EUC riders ride with  hands limp at the side and I truly think it’s because we have this idea that being perfectly still is “mastery” of balancing on the unicycle. 

In the beginning, we used large arm corrections to go in a straight line and to turn, but as our bodies adapted to the EUC and muscle memory set in we no longer needed these arm contributions to control the machine. 

If we think about manual unicycle riders, even the pros still have massive amounts of arm utilization for going straight and turning. 

So imagine if we added back the control our arm contributions brought to our newly programmed/conditioned bodies that no longer need it. That is the riding style I see Tishawn has. It may look.... dangerous, but he’s figured out that by adding back an element that made you better in the beginning stages is what allows “ultimate control”. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by houseofjob

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I’ve thought about why EUC riders ride with  hands limp at the side and I truly think it’s because we have this idea that being perfectly still is “mastery” of balancing on the unicycle. 

In the beginning, we used large arm corrections to go in a straight line and to turn, but as our bodies adapted to the EUC and muscle memory set in we no longer needed these arm contributions to control the machine. 

But imagine if we added back the control our arm contributions brought to our newly programmed/conditioned bodies that no longer need it. That is the riding style I see Tishawn has. It may look.... dangerous, but he’s figured out that by adding back an element that made you better in the beginning stages is what allows “ultimate control”. 

However, I'd probably never have the energy to complete a 50-mile ride if my arms were flying about during most of the ride 

[houseofjob]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

However, I'd probably never have the energy to complete a 50-mile ride if my arms were flying about during most of the ride 

There's no arm fatigue if you approach it as more of a dynamic/athletic motion meant more to maximize acceleration and complete/sharper turning of the EUC, much like snowboarders, skiers, speed skaters, etc. The safety aspect comes as a by-product.

ie., it's more about alternating arms (even one arm up gives your other arm quicker reaction time). Plus, you can also just lead with elbows, as that still places this fulcrum in a better position for your forearms to react quicker.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

There's no arm fatigue if you approach it as more of a dynamic/athletic motion meant more to maximize acceleration and complete/sharper turning of the EUC, much like snowboarders, skiers, speed skaters, etc. The safety aspect comes as a by-product.

ie., it's more about alternating arms (even one arm up gives your other arm quicker reaction time). Plus, you can also just lead with elbows, as that still places this fulcrum in a better position for your forearms to react quicker.

I hear you, and understand. Much of the time I'm not as zombie-like as I appear in my videos, because my videos would not look very good if the camera was moving all over the place 

However, I still contend that a 4+ hour ride will be more fatiguing as additional body motions come into play. It really depends on the kind of riding. Riding in urban settings can facilitate much more motion than a distance ride where there are stretches of gently winding trails that go on for miles and miles.

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

However, I still contend that a 4+ hour ride will be more fatiguing as additional body motions come into play. It really depends on the kind of riding. Riding in urban settings can facilitate much more motion than a distance ride where there are stretches of gently winding trails that go on for miles and miles.

Yes, I had thought this too. We have different riding circumstances from you West Coasters, especially as you guys need to trek to nomad mountains for crappy terrain when we have it right at our doorsteps 

BTW, for 4+ hour rides, I'm on my KS-18S sitting... just sayin'.....

Edited February 20, 2019 by houseofjob

[Marty Backe]

17 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, I had thought this too. We have different riding circumstances from you West Coasters, especially as you guys need to trek to nomad mountains for crappy terrain when we have it right at our doorsteps 

BTW, for 4+ hour rides, I'm on my KS-18S sitting... just sayin'.....

Are you using your arms much when in the seated position?

[houseofjob]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

Are you using your arms much when in the seated position?

Absolutely, except it's more about the arms alternating and planting on the front of the seat, just like the manual unicyclists do. That's like the basis for everything with seated IMHO

 

 

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

https://enduro-mtb.com/en/lightweight-convertible-full-face-helmets-review/

 

In this test only the Fox Proframe, Giro Switchblade, Lazer Revolution FF MIPS, and MET Parachute meet the more rigorous ASTM F1952 DH standard, the same standard that certifies helmets seen on the WC DH scene.

 

I have the MET Parachute, and there are forum members that use the Giro Switchblade.

Bicycle helmets give up some protection in order to be light, and there is no eye protection at all. You'd need to not wear glasses and have soft goggles. All that for helmets that are more than double an HJC or clone helmet.

In addition, the Snell standard specifies a dwell at peak G time in addition to a peak G. The MIPS is stupid, just more marketing crap, because a polycarbonate/carbon fiber shell already comes with its built-in "don't get caught on the ground" protection.

Snell and CE motorcycle helmets can be built to far higher safety standards because they don't have weight limits. Downhill MB are half the weight because they have half the thickness of styrofoam. If bicycle helmet manufacturers were serious about providing motorcycle-level protection then they'd use motorcycle safety standards. They don't because they can't.

In other words, bicycle helmet manufacturers would simply submit their helmets to the Snell/CE motorcycle standards instead of their own self-administered made-up standard.

STOP comparing bicycle helmets with motorcycle helmets as if they could possibly provide the same levels of protection. One is intended for low weight, low speeds, for impacting soft surfaces while the other is intended for high speeds, an indifference to weight, against asphalt and concrete. Do people seriously believe MIPS on soft ground at low speed is better than Snell at high speed on asphalt?

Downhill bicycle helmet.

--No eye protection.

--Full of little holes that reduce styrofoam and can be caught on the ground.

--Thin chin bar.

--Thin styrofoam everywhere.

--Lighter (but you're not pedaling on an EUC).

--Expensive.

Sportbike helmet

--Lockable eye visor providing protection regardless of eyeglasses.

--Huge chin bar.

--Thick heavy styrofoam with few holes.

--Commonly $120 to much less.

--Doubles as protection against cold.

It is impossible to argue against the greater protection afforded by a sportbike helmet over a downhill helmet.

The only advantage the downhill helmet is that it doesn't look as bad as the sportbike helmet, and that is a legitimate reason to wear it over a sportbike helmet. Looks are important, especially for something as sociable as an EUC.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not as zombie-like as I appear

I’ll stick up for you Marty and have actual proof. 

 

[Rama Douglas]

8 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

 

It is impossible to argue against the greater protection afforded by a sportbike helmet over a downhill helmet.

 

Ok. Since it's impossible to argue against it, I'll add additional concerns. Eye visor can crack on impact into sharp pieces and could severely puncture your face. The added 1 or two pounds of heavier weight could be a culprit for causing whiplash as well. A fast trip to the pavement with your head at the fastest point of your body swinging towards impact, could cause you to hit with much more force and more strain on the neck muscles which could cause further unnecessary injury. You're probably right about your helmet preference being more protective, but when people lay out blanket statements, that kind of bothers me. Each crash has different circumstances and there are a lot of good reasons to have a lighter weight helmet. Maybe you can just be a salesman for your favorite helmet, rather than tell everyone else that their choices suck. There's way too many variables to say that there's only one way to go for head protection. Most important thing is that the rider feels comfortable with their own personal choices in protective wear. Will my helmet be best in a scenario like @Chad SlavinSlavin's? I have no idea. It's all speculation, and all we can do is focus on our ride, the surroundings and encourage each other to wear protective gear, and to think positively that when and if you go down, that you'll not sustain serious injury. Maybe start a new thread called my helmet kicks your helmet's ass. 😜

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Rama Douglas said:

Ok. Since it's impossible to argue against it, I'll add additional concerns. Eye visor can crack on impact into sharp pieces and could severely puncture your face. The added 1 or two pounds of heavier weight could be a culprit for causing whiplash as well. A fast trip to the pavement with your head at the fastest point of your body swinging towards impact, could cause you to hit with much more force and more strain on the neck muscles which could cause further unnecessary injury. You're probably right about your helmet preference being more protective, but when people lay out blanket statements, that kind of bothers me. Each crash has different circumstances and there are a lot of good reasons to have a lighter weight helmet. Maybe you can just be a salesman for your favorite helmet, rather than tell everyone else that their choices suck. There's way too many variables to say that there's only one way to go for head protection. Most important thing is that the rider feels comfortable with their own personal choices in protective wear. Will my helmet be best in a scenario like @Chad SlavinSlavin's? I have no idea. It's all speculation, and all we can do is focus on our ride, the surroundings and encourage each other to wear protective gear, and to think positively that when and if you go down, that you'll not sustain serious injury. Maybe start a new thread called my helmet kicks your helmet's ass. 😜

@LanghamP has a looooooong history of very opinionated positions. I always look for him to establish the outer boundaries of just about any topic  Lots of pearls of wisdom, but it's kind of like going to those diamond fields where for $5 you can go in and dig to your hearts again, hoping you'll find something. Every once in awhile you do. I say this with love @LanghamP 

Now, to one of your points; eye visors on motorcycle helmets can crack and puncture your eye?   I would hope that's not possible - these things aren't make from glass, I hope