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[EcoDrift.ru] Ninebot Z10: A Diagnosis of Common Issues

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13 hours ago, Leonardo Deleon said:

I disconnected battery 2 that was causing the issue. Will do a range test with just one battery at 35kmh

Interesting to see if the problem still persists. If not, then maybe all that is needed is a new battery.

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1 hour ago, Ziiten said:

Interesting to see if the problem still persists. If not, then maybe all that is needed is a new battery.

It acts even more crazy with just one battery, I could ride just 10km, had to reconnect. Now the battery is unbalanced on the opposite direction.
I bought the 16X, cause I rely on a wheel for commuting 13km everyday

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22 minutes ago, Leonardo Deleon said:

It acts even more crazy with just one battery, I could ride just 10km, had to reconnect. Now the battery is unbalanced on the opposite direction.
I bought the 16X, cause I rely on a wheel for commuting 13km everyday

So, you got the high cell differential warning also with the battery half that hadnt previously shown low cell voltage?

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts of the KS 16X as a previous Z10 rider.

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On 8/26/2019 at 9:47 AM, Ziiten said:

So, you got the high cell differential warning also with the battery half that hadnt previously shown low cell voltage?

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts of the KS 16X as a previous Z10 rider.

I got a different error when only battery 1 was connected, when the battery got low. I turned off the wheel and it didn't turn back on, so I connected battery 2 to be able to get to work. I like the z10, is so sad that it has this problem. I'm gonna keep it around for a bit. Let me know if you find what's happening to yours.

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After experiencing same issue of unbalanced battery/cells when reaching 1000km on my Z10, I still had the option in the ninebot app so managed to update to BMS v1.1.7. After riding a few kms, alarm has not repeated. I will let you know if it has any definitive effect on battery errors/alarms .

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4 hours ago, Damarafaka said:

After experiencing same issue of unbalanced battery/cells when reaching 1000km on my Z10, I still had the option in the ninebot app so managed to update to BMS v1.1.7. After riding a few kms, alarm has not repeated. I will let you know if it has any definitive effect on battery errors/alarms .

I've had the bms-version already for quite a while. I cant remember when I updated to 1.1.7 and if the problems started after that.

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5 hours ago, Ziiten said:

I've had the bms-version already for quite a while. I cant remember when I updated to 1.1.7 and if the problems started after that.

After a short 10km ride today the wheel seems to not be charging anymore. I think something in the battery just died.

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On 8/24/2019 at 3:46 PM, RoberAce said:

 

D8DFE4C0-6E4F-41E5-BF93-8969CAC788DB.jpeg

DAF37C94-895B-4E1C-8A83-455E940670E2.jpeg

Sorry to hear that Ace, always saw you as the ultimate tester of the Z10 in order to find the extreme limits of this wheel. Hope you can get it fixed and are back in business as soon as possible. Will miss your great Z10 adventures.

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This is indeed very sad to see. I too saw Ace as one of the hardcore Z10 testers and to see the wheel fail in the same way as Hsaing's and many others just makes identifying what is going on even harder. Both wheels had many miles on them too which makes the cause even harder to pinpoint. I think the Z should have been able to handle those pendulums for that amount of time as well.

Is the only correlation that both were early wheels?

Still seems weird that Ace's wheel can do so many miles (10k?) before doing this. Makes me think that something else is going on.

Thankfully it didnt fail on one of his numerous crazy fast runs.

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13 hours ago, Planemo said:

This is indeed very sad to see. I too saw Ace as one of the hardcore Z10 testers and to see the wheel fail in the same way as Hsaing's and many others just makes identifying what is going on even harder. Both wheels had many miles on them too which makes the cause even harder to pinpoint. I think the Z should have been able to handle those pendulums for that amount of time as well.

Is the only correlation that both were early wheels?

Still seems weird that Ace's wheel can do so many miles (10k?) before doing this. Makes me think that something else is going on.

Thankfully it didnt fail on one of his numerous crazy fast runs.

Sorry, to disappoint you, the Z10 is a beautiful designed wheel, but the electronic components are nothing to right home about:facepalm:, I know some hardcore Z10 fanatics that have given up on their beloved Z10 and moved on to something else, Hsaing rides a Gotway Monster now, it's such a shame that Ninebot does not address this issues. For your information, I ride a Z6, but I only ride it once in two weeks so as not to run into issues.:whistling:

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1 hour ago, KAY GEE said:

Sorry, to disappoint you, the Z10 is a beautiful designed wheel, but the electronic components are nothing to right home about:facepalm:,

I never said the electronic components were something to write home about....:huh:

I was sad because I would just like to know what is causing the problems on Z10's, and possibly prevent it from happening to mine and others. The information/data we have so far isn't conclusive as to what is going on.

We had the first early, brand new wheels dying almost out of the box, we have Hsaings 1000km wheel dying whilst riding fairly conservatively with no other warning and now Ace's wheel when doing pendulums after 10,000km of hard riding. I find it all very odd, and just wish we could drill it down to something specific.

It's Ace's wheel which I find the most odd. To be problem-free for that sort of hard KM then suddenly fail seems bizarre.

Averaging it out over the year, I would think I ride mine less than you do. I would still like to know what the cause is.

A helpful piece of data would be build dates for wheels that have failed. Reading between the lines, NB suggest that wheels after April 2019 had changes. I do not think we have had a wheel fail since, so that might be some indicator, it might not.

 

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I’m not familiar with the other total Z10 failures, but doing a pendulum with relatively strong accelerations like @RoberAce did in the video, is (and has been since day 1, on any self-balancing vehicle) by far the easiest and most certain way to blow a mosfet. The current spikes when the wheel switches direction are a lot higher than one can get with any kind of riding.

Unless the wheel has specific protections against that, the Mosfets can blow from pendulums just as well on a new wheel than on one that has been stressed for thousands of miles.

Data points on wheel mileage or other parameters do not help here. The cause is already 100% clear, and well documented on video.

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2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’m not familiar with the other total Z10 failures, but doing a pendulum with relatively strong accelerations like @RoberAce did in the video, is (and has been since day 1, on any self-balancing vehicle) by far the easiest and most certain way to blow a mosfet.

That's fair enough and I take that on board. I knew that pendulums took a lot of current, I just didn't think the result would be that drastic after such a short amount of time doing them. If you are 100% satisfied that this is what caused Ace's wheel to blow I am somewhat relieved as I can't do pendulums!

In fact, I can't ride backwards either. Maybe I shouldn't learn, as the propensity to engage in pendulums would be far greater!

I might, carefully, just do a few 'gentle' pendulums whilst holding onto something and look at the wheelog data just to see what kind of amps are being pulled. I know what my heaviest amp draw to date is during riding, so it would be interesting to compare. 

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Hello everyone, 
First of all, thanks for this topic who is very interesting about knowing better the Z10 and it commons failures.

I've saw that one of the biggest issue is the two "Hall sensor" if I understood,  labeled "U1, U2" on the MOS board.

The soldering of the seems to be and issue and also their cooling from what I've understood.

I was wondering if someone had already tried to make a better solder it again and cooling ig by adding heat radiator on it or maybe a fan (look more complicated because you need to evacuate the hot air).

I'm thinking about buying a Z10 but i'm kind scared of the numbers of failures coming from this issue I read on Facebook/forums.

Any reports ?

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Hadrien Simeray said:

I've saw that one of the biggest issue is the two "Hall sensor" if I understood,  labeled "U1, U2" on the MOS board.

While I haven’t looked the teardown videos, I don’t think there are any hall sensors on the Mosfet board. Perhaps they are transistors? Hall sensors’ only job is to react to magnets closeby, hence there are a few inside the motor.

 

1 hour ago, Hadrien Simeray said:

I'm thinking about buying a Z10

You might want to watch Speedyfeet’s 650km review first.

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3 hours ago, Hadrien Simeray said:

Hello everyone, 
First of all, thanks for this topic who is very interesting about knowing better the Z10 and it commons failures.

I've saw that one of the biggest issue is the two "Hall sensor" if I understood,  labeled "U1, U2" on the MOS board.

The soldering of the seems to be and issue and also their cooling from what I've understood.

I was wondering if someone had already tried to make a better solder it again and cooling ig by adding heat radiator on it or maybe a fan (look more complicated because you need to evacuate the hot air).

I'm thinking about buying a Z10 but i'm kind scared of the numbers of failures coming from this issue I read on Facebook/forums.

Any reports ?

Thanks

The U1 and U2 component on the driver board are hall-effect-based current sensor. Allegro ACS781 to be exact. When you see the pictures and they look burnt, it’s actually the conformal coating on the board overheating and getting discolored. 

Without properly testing a failed board, we can’t know for sure what component is prone to failure. A shorted motor can result in overheated board and eventually component failure. 

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On 9/9/2019 at 3:15 PM, mrelwood said:

 

While I haven’t looked the teardown videos, I don’t think there are any hall sensors on the Mosfet board. Perhaps they are transistors? Hall sensors’ only job is to react to magnets closeby, hence there are a few inside the motor.

 

You might want to watch Speedyfeet’s 650km review first.

Okay, I've just watched the review and it's always a pleasure to watch his videos eheh.
About the behave, I've read about it and tried it once for 10 min in the street. It was ... interesting but was an too short experience  to have a feeling.

On 9/9/2019 at 5:48 PM, Rotciv said:

The U1 and U2 component on the driver board are hall-effect-based current sensor. Allegro ACS781 to be exact. When you see the pictures and they look burnt, it’s actually the conformal coating on the board overheating and getting discolored. 

Thanks for the correction and precision.

On 9/9/2019 at 5:48 PM, Rotciv said:

Without properly testing a failed board, we can’t know for sure what component is prone to failure. A shorted motor can result in overheated board and eventually component failure

Yes I understand and agree.

Anyone tried to change the sensors after failure with sign of burn on the sensors ?

 

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On 9/1/2019 at 5:35 PM, Planemo said:

Still seems weird that Ace's wheel can do so many miles (10k?) before doing this. Makes me think that something else is going on.

I found it strange that Roberto's Z10 didn't give any warning before blowing the mosfet because in my experience the wheel starts beeping and tilting back hard after heating up from constant pendulum riding, although rider weight does influence a lot, in my opinion he was giving it a real beating with those "violent" pendulum movement in a very short time span without allowing any breathing time for the Z10 to recover. As you say, I think also something else is going on and the problem is that ninebot seems to have no idea of what it is. None of the software updates or different "batches" have definitively solved anything. From the battery drain, the low battery % problems, low temperature start, etc. ninebot never identifies, admits or solves concrete problems, it just says so and so has been fixed, all very vague; one replaces then, for example, a supposed faulty mother board but the wheel still will not turn on. I believe the battery and the BMS system have a lot to do with what is causing many of the Z10 problems. One thing for sure is that putting many miles on the battery like Roberto seems to keep it healthy but allowing a Z10 to stay idle several days with low battery can lead to all sorts of battery imbalances, nightmares and something else that thanks to ninebot we'll never know.

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46 minutes ago, Damarafaka said:

I found it strange that Roberto's Z10 didn't give any warning before blowing the mosfet because in my experience the wheel starts beeping and tilting back hard after heating up from constant pendulum riding

That's interesting. I didn't know the Z had tiltback/beeps for an overheat scenario. That said, maybe it only works in relation to battery temp rather than board temp. I don't know if the Z has both, only that it measures 'something' because I know it won't let you charge if that 'something' is above a certain temp.

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On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:27 AM, Hadrien Simeray said:

Anyone tried to change the sensors after failure with sign of burn on the sensors ?

I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this. It would be good to hear if it solved the problem though. I would give it a go personally, the sensors wont be a lot of money and I can solder. If it still didn't work then a new board it is, which of course it would have needed anyway. Nothing lost for the cost of a couple of sensors.

.....unless when the sensors fail it takes something else out, and replacing the sensors with new then causes an issue with something inside the wheel (hall sensors maybe) which would add a world of pain.... it's only my concern because Hsaing's new board didn't solve the problem...

Edit: sensors are £4.34 each

https://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/ACS781KLRTR-150B-T/620-1827-1-ND/6189116?utm_campaign=buynow&WT.z_cid=ref_octopart_dkc_buynow&utm_medium=aggregator&curr=gbp&site=us&utm_source=octopart

Edited by Planemo

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