[EcoDrift.ru] Ninebot Z10: A Diagnosis of Common Issues

[houseofjob]

Another excellent write-up by @EcoDrift (via Google Translate) regarding all the QC issue of recent Ninebot One Z manufacturing (including references to our very own North American superdealer @Jason McNeil )

 

https://ecodrift.ru/2019/02/12/ninebot-z10-chastaya-polomka/

Ninebot Z10. One of the frequent breakdowns.

I tried to collect material on the pre-sale preparation and maintenance of the monowheels. But my attention was attracted by the open Ninebot Z10. He asked what happened to him, but it turned out that this is a sad whole story, which I will tell you today. 

After the start of sales, Ninebot Z-series monowheels unexpectedly turned out to be leaders in the number of warranty calls. Wheels directly out of the box often do not turn on, as the battery protection works. Our very first wheel didn’t turn on that way. But I came across a wheel with another problem. It clearly looks like a Facebook user (click).  The wheel walks back and forth and does not really hold the horizon. I just caught the wheel disassembled:

The following problem is visible on the controller:

Contacts burned at current sensors:

What have two. These current sensors are Hall effect and they are designed for a very high current. Such sensors (designed for high current) were detected only in Ninebot (in Gotway, sensors are connected via current-lowering resistors and have much more modest parameters). 

Service engineers immediately said that this is a frequent problem of the Z-series. And for example, dragged another Z10, whose contact burned down only on one sensor:

You can see that the sensor on the left side feels fine:

The guys from the service center tried to restore the burnt track on this wheel. After that, the wheel goes normally, but if it is on it try to drive into a small curb from the spot and everything repeats. The problem can be anywhere, but the simplest thing is to just take a new controller. Rather, the board with the power part:

To check how much this “repair” really helps, I decided to check with our American colleague Jason McNeil. He is the owner of the portal eWheels.com and has sold quite a lot of Z-series monowheels. Jason confirmed that it is enough to replace one lower board and the problem does not recur.

The same sensors on the new board:

The reverse side of the new board (the controller is diluted on an aluminum substrate):

So the repair is very simple. Disconnect all wires. Remove the fee:

Thermal grease on the old board:

We connect new, we connect everything back:

And the wheel works great:

But I decided to ask Jason about the situation with the Z-series: how often they break and how many of them have a marriage. Jason was very emotional, because from Z10 he decently boiling. Jason wants to sue Ninebot for non-compliance with its obligations and for the poor quality of the Z-series. Marriage was abound. As a percentage, this is at least 20% of all devices sold. The problem of current sensors can lead to melted wires of the phases and even burnout of the controller. And of course, enough battery problems.

As a result, Jason's opinion about the Z-series in particular, and Ninebot in general, is just a piece of garbage. Sheer frustration. For the comfort of users, it remains only to add that the overwhelming majority of problems arise at the start of operation. Approximately the first 50km and a pair of first charge cycles. If the wheel has passed the initial stage, the probability decreases to very low.

 

[Jason McNeil]

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Jason's opinion about the Z-series in particular, and Ninebot in general, is just a piece of garbage. Sheer frustration. For the comfort of users, it remains only to add that the overwhelming majority of problems arise at the start of operation.

I didn't think a Wechat remark would go on public record, oh well...  The rumour is that Ninebot now have no intention of releasing the Z10 outside of China, maybe this has something to do with it (below). I'm not aware of any party who has a successful working relationship with Ninebot. 

"A lawsuit filed in California in October blamed the injuries on negligent operators and manufacturers, including both Lime and Ninebot....Even before the announcement, Lime and Ninebot severed ties."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-12-05/almost-every-electric-scooter-comes-from-this-chinese-company

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

I didn't think a Wechat remark would go on public record, oh well...  The rumour is that Ninebot now have no intention of releasing the Z10 outside of China, maybe this has something to do with it (below). I'm not aware of any party who has a successful working relationship with Ninebot. 

"A lawsuit filed in California in October blamed the injuries on negligent operators and manufacturers, including both Lime and Ninebot....Even before the announcement, Lime and Ninebot severed ties."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-12-05/almost-every-electric-scooter-comes-from-this-chinese-company

If it leaves your computer you should assume it can become public 

Regarding said rumor, this just means as a company Ninebot won't be selling the Z10. That doesn't preclude people such as yourself continuing to sell it, right? But if I read between the lines, people such as yourself, outside of China, will never get formal parts or service support. Thus your decision to stop selling them.

I continue to hope my Z10 does not fail because I really love the wheel. Everyone I personally know that owns one loves theirs too.

[Jason McNeil]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

doesn't preclude people such as yourself continuing to sell it, right? But if I read between the lines, people such as yourself, outside of China, will never get formal parts or service support

Ninebot are also refusing to sell replacement parts, so not only are a double-digit percentage off the Z10s arriving DOA, with 9B giving everyone who's made an investment in one the middle-finger & told to get lost, but there's no recourse for procuring the necessary parts. Discontinuing sales in this case is not a question of choice but of necessity. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Jason McNeil

[who_the]

Wow. Just wow. I commute daily on my Z10 and absolutely love it. Never had a blip of any issues, very thankful. 

Curious, are any of the DOA wheels revivable through the newly-released battery instructions, or are they truly bricked forever? I guess they may have some value for parts to us who want to keep ours going? Didn't know I'd have a Studebaker on my hands... 😀

[Rehab1]

5 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Ninebot are also refusing to sell replacement parts, so not only are a double-digit percentage off the Z10s arriving DOA, with 9B giving everyone who's made an investment in one the middle-finger & told to get lost, but there's no recourse for procuringthe necessary parts. Discontinuing sales in this case is not a question of choice but of necessity. 

This is absolutely terrible! Does Ninebot management even respond to your correspondence? Can you share with us their responses or reasoning? 

[Nic]

Fu#k ... I may never see my Z10 now. 

[RayRay]

Sadly, the Bloomberg article described Ninebot's electric unicycle as "a one-wheeled orb with retractable foot stands"; (but at least there was photo of a wheel).

Man riding futuristic orb

(Also mention of Shane Chen's "one-wheeled scooter", the Solowheel...)

Edited February 14, 2019 by RayRay
Hey look, it's one of those orb scooters

[Marty Backe]

39 minutes ago, who_the said:

Wow. Just wow. I commute daily on my Z10 and absolutely love it. Never had a blip of any issues, very thankful. 

Curious, are any of the DOA wheels revivable through the newly-released battery instructions, or are they truly bricked forever? I guess they may have some value for parts to us who want to keep ours going? Didn't know I'd have a Studebaker on my hands... 😀

I'm pretty sure the double-digit failure rate that Jason mentions has nothing to do with the battery discharge issue. It's actual failed hardware, out-of-the-box.

As mentioned here and elsewhere, if you get a Z10 and it works for the first week, you'll probably have a long-life wheel. But until you open the box, you're rolling the dice.

[Marty Backe]

From here on out, I'll only be able to recommend the Z10 in good faith with the proviso that you buy it knowing that you may lose all of your money - it's a wheel for people with deep pockets. Very unfortunate. 

[Girth Brooks]

Holy shit!! That is so crazy that they would just totally shit on everyone who spends thousands of dollars on their product! I know capitalism is fairly new thing to the Chinese, but it won't be long till their businesses go broke with things like this happening. 

[Girth Brooks]

@houseofjob thanks so much for posting this. I haven't had any trouble with mine but I might buy an extra board before there's no more to buy just in case.

[Heyzeus]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Ninebot are also refusing to sell replacement parts, so not only are a double-digit percentage off the Z10s arriving DOA, with 9B giving everyone who's made an investment in one the middle-finger & told to get lost, but there's no recourse for procuring the necessary parts. Discontinuing sales in this case is not a question of choice but of necessity.

This is how you go out of business right?  Or at least in a ideal world it would be, but with a billion potential customers in china business just carries on as usual.  Especially with their profits from their other products (scooters etc).

I would like to think that they aren't selling the parts only because they are identifying the fault/fix in the board and manufacturing new ones, but I doubt that is the case given radio silence.

If you can comment, do you think the failures are due to bad design where the parts they used aren't spec'd right and sometimes fail as a result (and will eventually all succumb)or do you think it's bad part quality control where they just got a batch of bad sensors or something that can't handle the power of their given specs and fail

43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

From here on out, I'll only be able to recommend the Z10 in good faith with the proviso that you buy it knowing that you may lose all of your money - it's a wheel for people with deep pockets. Very unfortunate. 

@Jason McNeil of the failures with the controller, do you know if all the failures have been out of box / post ride or have these failed at speed.

I'm curious if these hall sensor defects/other controller defects have resulted in the wheels just acting funny on startup or actually have thrown people from their wheels mid ride.  If it's the latter then I imagine this would be a dangerous wheel to be going off trail given the higher current/power demands in those scenarios

 

[Girth Brooks]

@Heyzeus the article basically says that if your Z worked out of the box and hasn't given trouble within the first few rides then it's very likely it will last you a longtime.

[Heyzeus]

1 minute ago, Girth Brooks said:

@Heyzeus the article basically says that if your Z worked out of the box and hasn't given trouble within the first few rides then it's very likely it will last you a longtime.

Yeah, I noticed that but was confused by that conclusion (not saying it's wrong, I am not an engineer) because it says:

 

Quote

Contacts burned at current sensors...

What have two. These current sensors are Hall effect and they are designed for a very high current. Such sensors (designed for high current) were detected only in Ninebot (in Gotway, sensors are connected via current-lowering resistors and have much more modest parameters). 

So how are these burning up in box, just sitting there, I would think it wouldn't be having passive current going through them when off, and I wouldn't expect high current flowing through when off (again not an engineer could be wrong, just seems like it would be weird).  Are the failure ones somehow getting turned on in shipping or maybe they die immediately when being tested at the factory but the nature of the failure isn't such that you notice it just after switching on the first time and so they got boxed up and shipped out.

Just seems weird to my admittedly untrained eye

[houseofjob]

6 hours ago, Girth Brooks said:

@houseofjob thanks so much for posting this. I haven't had any trouble with mine but I might buy an extra board before there's no more to buy just in case.

Sure thing. I might have the itch to join you in trying to source an extra board, along with spare tire, spare charger, and maybe that new headlight.

 

6 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

If you can comment, do you think the failures are due to bad design where the parts they used aren't spec'd right and sometimes fail as a result (and will eventually all succumb)or do you think it's bad part quality control where they just got a batch of bad sensors or something that can't handle the power of their given specs and fail

Probably a little bit of both categories. 

Even though the Z (when working) performs very well (not Gotway well), it's still a mystery to many why they chose such a difficult path stepping down to 14S / 58.8V, with all it's high current load handling implications. Also, when EUC companies are in a rush, bad/cold soldering, ie. manual assembly rushing/oversight, can be the cause of this kind of stuff, as ecodrift said simply replacing the burnt board sensors fixed those issues (bad soldering of the sensors I believe would have resulted in higher resistance, limiting current flow, thus resulting in this possible burnout).

 

6 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

@Jason McNeil of the failures with the controller, do you know if all the failures have been out of box / post ride or have these failed at speed.

I'm curious if these hall sensor defects/other controller defects have resulted in the wheels just acting funny on startup or actually have thrown people from their wheels mid ride.  If it's the latter then I imagine this would be a dangerous wheel to be going off trail given the higher current/power demands in those scenarios

5 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

Yeah, I noticed that but was confused by that conclusion (not saying it's wrong, I am not an engineer) because it says:

So how are these burning up in box, just sitting there, I would think it wouldn't be having passive current going through them when off, and I wouldn't expect high current flowing through when off (again not an engineer could be wrong, just seems like it would be weird).  Are the failure ones somehow getting turned on in shipping or maybe they die immediately when being tested at the factory but the nature of the failure isn't such that you notice it just after switching on the first time and so they got boxed up and shipped out.

Just seems weird to my admittedly untrained eye

Everything that I've seen in-and-around these forums & social media seem to indicate that the Z issues are predominantly out-of-the-box, non-riding issues (like wheels that won't power on; wheels that drift in balance over a short period of time, etc.)

There was one sensational Z cutout report/video, but the validity of this claim was questionable, as the rider was clearly a newbie, and newbie riders often lack knowledge of common EUC no-no's, like overlean, pushing past highspeed tiltback/beeps, etc.

 

Also, I get the feeling that at least all of us first batch Z riders (maybe also the 2nd & 3rd US batches), like me & @Marty Backe have been riding pretty much problem free. 

Wonder if this first batch failure rate was significantly lower than the 20% figure.

This all has the feeling that the pressure of pumping out new Z stock resulted in QC oversights (also, always remember: "Made in China" )

 

[JBoo]

I was one of the first batch recipients and I’ve got over 1100 miles on my wheel including lots of riding in moderate to heavy rain, and the wheel is still chugging along.  RoberAce, I believe, has put at least twice that much on his wheel, so it definitely seems to be the case if you’ve got several miles on the wheel, then it’ll keep going.  That said, eventually (and my guess this will be around the 5000 mile mark), the tire is going to be nearly bald and need replacing, but it doesn’t look like I’ll have any ability to fix it   As much as I like the Z10, Ninebot’s behavior in this matter makes me really regret not getting a KS18XL instead...

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, JBoo said:

I was one of the first batch recipients and I’ve got over 1100 miles on my wheel including lots of riding in moderate to heavy rain, and the wheel is still chugging along.  RoberAce, I believe, has put at least twice that much on his wheel, so it definitely seems to be the case if you’ve got several miles on the wheel, then it’ll keep going.  That said, eventually (and my guess this will be around the 5000 mile mark), the tire is going to be nearly bald and need replacing, but it doesn’t look like I’ll have any ability to fix it   As much as I like the Z10, Ninebot’s behavior in this matter makes me really regret not getting a KS18XL instead...

If all you're worried about is the tire, it seems readily available from multiple sources.

[HalfGlass]

Shared this topic on Reddit. People should know.

[Igor Rz]

Here is a short survey created by me on the Fb group
The problem indicator can be easily assessed

[RoberAce]

6.063kms 3,767miles. Issues only bearings it was necesary replace after 6.000kms, because originals damaged due intense use and wear

Edited February 15, 2019 by RoberAce

[stephen]

@RoberAce have you done the unlock mod for speed

[RoberAce]

Jason's experience is to paint a very black image of the Ninebot Z with dramatic nuances that do not correspond at all with the worldwide success that is obtaining and the thousands of units that currently circulate in a community that grows every day more. It is true that there were problems with it, and it was mostly due to manufacturing defect in batch 2 of the controller board. Jason imported all his units in the month of August 2018 where almost all belong to that Batch with which I can understand that using this yardstick can understand that the final verdict is that the ninebot Z10 for him and all those affected is a full disaster. My friend Eduardo from Spain bought Ninebot Z10 on AliExpress (like me) with the difference that mine belongs to Batch 1 and him to Batch 2, and the bad apple came out, the controller board burned down including melting to the engine cables that also burned, Ninebot directly from China covered and sent both boards the controller and power board, and a replacement engine too without any cost, with the inconvenience that he had to wait more than three months since everything was had to manage between Spain and Ninebot matrix of China, thank goodness right now Eduardo enjoys his Ninebot Z10 fully. The spare parts of the Ninebot Z10 are all available on AliExpress, now there is a complete collection of the spare parts of the Ninebot Z10 and every day they sell more, Jason requested spare parts of the Ninebot Z10 many months ago and at that time there were not, but now it is no the case. Ninebot Z10 announced the Ninebot Z certification for Europe for April, so everything indicates that Ninebot does not plan to discontinue its manufacture and commercialization.

Without forgetting that there were certainly problems especially at the beginning, I think this post reflects a biased reality of what is really a success of a wheel that has come to stay where every day we are more riders. I'm sorry that for the US market, (maybe too early, ) there was such a bad luck and it was such a bad experience

Edited February 15, 2019 by RoberAce
translate issues

[RoberAce]

12 minutes ago, stephen said:

@RoberAce have you done the unlock mod for speed

not for now, but possibly soon

[RoberAce]

 

Comparison Tire between new and after 3700 miles

Edited February 15, 2019 by RoberAce