Will the EUC be the Transporation Revolution that the Segway fail to achieve?

[Darrell Wesh]

1 minute ago, Mono said:

There is no question that motorcycling is quite dangerous. But then, most of the times when I went down my helmet didn't touch anything. Once the helmet aggravated a strain on my neck muscles. Once the helmet did touch the ground, but I don't think it prevented a serious injury (but I couldn't be 100% sure). My gear most likely prevented some road rash, for sure on the hands, but I am not sure it ever prevented significant injury (maybe the boots did off road?). Still, I would not go on a bike without a helmet and all.

Probably want to throw that helmet away!  I fell on a moped into a ditch going around a tight bend years ago, and my helmet hit the ground but it was such a soft “thud” I didn’t think it damaged anything. It was around 20mph and dark at night so I didn’t see how sharp the turn actually was before it was too late. My neck was stiff for a few hours after the fall. 

The helmet looked perfectly fine with light scratches. Turns out after sending the helmet to get tested by the company it came back as being compromised and needed to be tossed. They told me that if a helmet does its job it won’t feel like you even hit your head, but always assume that if it makes contact it did its one time  job and no longer can protect again. 

[pst]

17 hours ago, Nic said:

I think you are mistaken ... this guy has his braces caught in the wheel.

Am I the only one who thinks that thing looks a lot like a miniature penny farthing? :P

[Jerome]

22 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Please cite evidence of government banning commuter vehicles because of personal use injury.  The scooter companies are in no way being reprimanded because of personal injuries. The littering of units on public space is the primary concern and far down the list is complaints of hooligans running into innocent bystanders on the scooters which is NOT personal use injury. 

You may have a point here. It is however a chicken-egg sort of thing. We won't know what they will do because it is not likely to ever be enough EUC riders other than "enthusiast" to see the effects of mass personal injuries. The public has already voted. They have shown no interest in Eucs. The number of "enthusiast" will grow some, but EUCs will probably never be as popular as Boosted Boards and other e-board players and clones which in themselves are niche pevs. In this country (Jason would know better than me) I am not sure whether EUCs even out sell ONEWHEELS which are a niche of a niche market. 

We "enthusiast" need to step out of our bodies and look from the point of view of the general public. Why would someone looking for a Pev choose an EUC when you can't use it right away, and this is not because of the learning curve. You may be able to learn how to ride without falling in x amount of hours, but that is a long way away from having the skills to: ride slowly among pedestrians, handle bumps, speed bumps, dips and potholes, uneven sidewalk, curbs, ride with cars blasting pass you,  and be able to maintain speeds that are fast enough to justify using the pev in the first place. Since the average weight of American men and women is 197 lbs - 170 lbs respectively, buying the cheapest EUCs is not a serious option. This thread is asking the question will EUCs effect a "revolutionary" change in personal transport as the Segway was supposed to do. The answer is a resounding NO. How can anyone not see that?

 

[Jerome]

17 hours ago, Mono said:

Why would you think that? Of course nothing is with zero danger, but why would you think the danger does not depend on rider skills

Well you have "expanded" "skill" to mean physical prowess, wisdom and good judgement, no lapses in concentration, superior eyesight and hearing, etc. Yes if someone gets better in every way including character and that is called skill, the I retract my statement. I was referring simply to the ability to handle an EUC expertly in which case a "significant" danger is always present whenever you ride the EUC.

[Jerome]

16 hours ago, Mono said:

I can't say who is defending EUCs, but I can say that several of European countries have legalized EUCs whether or not being defended.

Yes, but with draconian restrictions while Bird and others seem to be getting away with their continued barrage of e-scooters. It will be interesting to see if e-scooter become so much of a nuisance they are banned, will the legalization of EUCs be revoked. Maybe not ..  

[Jerome]

16 hours ago, Mono said:

But then this "key difference" is a meaningless difference. I am pretty sure that motorcycling with full protection gear is considerably more dangerous than EUCing without protection gear, when both is done on legal devices in Europe. Motorcycling is by far the most dangerous (legal) mode of transportation (maybe there are some fringe exceptions, like flying Cessnas, I am always happy to learn) and it is pretty inconceivable to me that EUCing kept below 25km/h could come even close to the fatality rates that we accept for motorcycling.

The above is so skewed and fallacious you should be ashamed. The above isn't even as close as comparing apples and oranges. For stats to have any meaning you have to have similar operating parameters. Let's look at the stats when there are millions of people riding EUCs in traffic, some of which are intoxicated. If you prefer we can look from the other perspective - let's have the motorcycles ride at 25 kph on sidewalks, bike lanes and trails. Maybe you will be proven right.

 

[Jerome]

16 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Just because you have a license doesn’t make you skilled at driving a motorcycle so you can’t argue that case. Most people who buy motorcycles buy it to take extreme risks (canyon runs, track days, splitting traffic etc). It just blows my mind that motorcyles are even legal on the public road with the almost guarantee of a life altering injury or fatality if you fall or impact.

The only people of the 6 million plus MC riders who ride like the above are "sports bike" riders, a "small urban/suburban segment" of the motorcycling community, of which many should not have a license. 

[ir_fuel]

19 hours ago, Mono said:

The data say otherwise.

You have stats of euc's vs motorcycles?

Motorcyclists get killed more because the speeds are simply higher. 

19 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Motorcyclists split lanes because they don’t want to get run over while in traffic (and the obvious, to save time)

You haven't seen @Tishawn Fahie's NY videos  

[ir_fuel]

2 hours ago, Jerome said:

of which many should not have a license. 

The good news is, to ride on the race track you don't need one  

[Mono]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

You have stats of euc's vs motorcycles?

No.

Quote

Motorcyclists get killed more because the speeds are simply higher. 

Exactly, that's what I think as well. And that's why I predict that the type of EUCs that are legal as of today in Europe are safer than motorbikes. And that's why I responded to "Motorcycles do the same speeds as cars, making them a lot safer to be sharing the road with them "with "the data say otherwise". Speed doesn't make motorcycling (overall) safer, despite sharing the road with speedy cars.

[Mono]

4 hours ago, Jerome said:

The number of "enthusiast" will grow some, but EUCs will probably never be as popular as Boosted Boards and other e-board players and clones which in themselves are niche pevs.

I don't know where you get the data from for your predictions, but in other parts of the world EUCs have already vastly outnumbered Boosted Boards and other e-boards.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11772-traffic-count-of-light-vehicles/?tab=comments#comment-196583

4 hours ago, Jerome said:

I was referring simply to the ability to handle an EUC expertly in which case a "significant" danger is always present whenever you ride the EUC.

Walking or cycling or driving pose a "significant" danger as well. Nobody of us can know how much more, or less, dangerous EUCing is compared to walking or cycling. And the danger of the last two differs to a great amount depending on which part of the world it is done. IIRC, cycling is about 10 times more dangerous in the US than in The Netherlands. The same might be true for EUCing and we can't possibly know (but it's not so unlikely after all).

3 hours ago, Jerome said:

The above is so skewed and fallacious you should be ashamed.

Don't bother, I will neither read nor respond to your posts from here on.

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, Jerome said:

The above is so skewed and fallacious you should be ashamed. 

We believe in heathy debates on the forum without disparaging other members.

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Walking or cycling or driving pose a "significant" danger as well. Nobody of us can know how much more, or less, dangerous EUCing is compared to walking or cycling. And the danger of the last two differs to a great amount depending on which part of the world it is done. IIRC, cycling is about 10 times more dangerous in the US than in The Netherlands. 

I was initially quite surprised to read that walking in the US is quite dangerous per trip and of course per mile, slotting below motorcycles but above everything else.

A lot of pedestrians are killed while on the sidewalk, because a driver leaving the road at 50mph onto a sidewalk will almost certainly kill any hit pedestrians. Amusingly, on a Florida road most of the pedestrian signal lights were broken due to the vast numbers of drivers leaving the road and colliding with signal poles.

http://stoicurbanist.com/biscayne-boulevard-dangerous-by-design/

I think the safety of EUCs to the rider are easy to extrapolate depending on which mode you operate the EUC in.

If you ride the EUC like a bicycle, wearing a helmet, then it's about as dangerous as riding a bicycle, which is to say quite safe until you get hit by a car.

If you ride the EUC like a fast pedestrian, weaving between pedestrians, then it's about as dangerous as being a pedestrian, which is to say it's quite safe until you get hit by a car.

Since pedestrians get hit by cars more often than bicyclists per trip (in the US), it follows riding the EUC around pedestrians is the most dangerous way of operating it. And, indeed, I've been hit a number of times while trolleying my EUC in a crosswalk.

[ir_fuel]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

A lot of pedestrians are killed while on the sidewalk, because a driver leaving the road at 50mph onto a sidewalk will almost certainly kill any hit pedestrians.

Do you have roads where you are allowed to drive 50mph whilst having pedestrians on a sidewalk? 

[Jerome]

This discussion has gone from whether EUCs are potential full fillers of the Segway dream to "how dangerous is it to be around cars on any vehicle or walking".

EUCs are one wheeled vehicles that required the proper operation of a battery, bms and a motor-controller to stay balance forward and back. They also require the rider to balance from side-to-side. E-bikes E-scooters require the rider to maintain balance side-to-side but the tandem wheels handle forward and backward balance. E-Boards are a little more sketchy when trying to maintain balance than bikes and scooters, but one can in fact stand on them without the need for motion. EUCs are more like the ONEWHEELs

Enough of the predictions and opinions, let's look at one fact. Bird/Lime could of asked Xiaomi  to provide them with thousands of Ninebot E+ eucs with performance specification equal or better than the Xiaomi/ES2 scooters and with a smaller foot print. it would be insulting to imply that Bird/Lime's business models didn't show due diligence by analyzing their target clients and scrutinizing available pevs options. They chose e-kick scooters. I won't speculate as to all the considerations that went into that decision.

I can say, however, with a large degree of insurance that the ability of the public to immediately use the scooters with out training or gear was one of them.

The above is my only point and posting further on this topic is just me liking the sound of my own voice. I apologize for taking up thread space and to anyone whom I may have offended.

 

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Do you have roads where you are allowed to drive 50mph whilst having pedestrians on a sidewalk? 

I see plenty of local roads that have a speed limit of 55 mph with no separation between road and sidewalk with trees. I have been on such sidewalks and they are as inhospitable as you can imagine, as the cars, going ten over, just knocks the wind out of you, and conversation is absolutely impossible.

Think six lane 55 mph road with a sidewalk next to it.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I see plenty of local roads that have a speed limit of 55 mph with no separation between road and sidewalk with trees. I have been on such sidewalks and they are as inhospitable as you can imagine, as the cars, going ten over, just knocks the wind out of you, and conversation is absolutely impossible.

Think six lane 55 mph road with a sidewalk next to it.

Yeah that’s how roads in Virginia Beach are. Much safer to cross in the middle instead of the crosswalks

[Scatcat]

6 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I see plenty of local roads that have a speed limit of 55 mph with no separation between road and sidewalk with trees. I have been on such sidewalks and they are as inhospitable as you can imagine, as the cars, going ten over, just knocks the wind out of you, and conversation is absolutely impossible.

Think six lane 55 mph road with a sidewalk next to it.

 

5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Yeah that’s how roads in Virginia Beach are. Much safer to cross in the middle instead of the crosswalks

You Yankees are crazy! What the actual f--k! 

That kind of traffic situation sound like a nightmare unless you're in a SUV. No wonder people go to the shop down the block in their cars, if that is the only way to reasonably predict you'll get there without internal bleeding and broken bones... You have taken the car culture a *bit* far it seems.

Let's hope there is a million Bird/Lime scooters wooing people to leave the car at home. Or whatever comes after Bird/Lime. At least something seems to be needed, to lift actual flesh, blood and bone human beings into prominence in the modern urban environment. I thought we had it bad here.

[Darrell Wesh]

22 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

 

You Yankees are crazy! What the actual f--k! 

That kind of traffic situation sound like a nightmare unless you're in a SUV. No wonder people go to the shop down the block in their cars, if that is the only way to reasonably predict you'll get there without internal bleeding and broken bones... You have taken the car culture a *bit* far it seems.

Let's hope there is a million Bird/Lime scooters wooing people to leave the car at home. Or whatever comes after Bird/Lime. At least something seems to be needed, to lift actual flesh, blood and bone human beings into prominence in the modern urban environment. I thought we had it bad here.

Virginia Beach (the non Beach part) is literally all 45mph + roads with thin sidewalks on either side. No place for bird/lime scooters. Hell, I can’t even ride my EUC’s there with any enjoyment. The roads are too long between lights and way too fast for an EUC even a 100v Monster wouldn’t work. Cars accelerate like they’re testing their 0-60 at every light.

 I’d be relegated to the very thin and  bumpy sidewalks and having to use the dreaded crosswalks. There are no bike lanes because the roads are just too fast. In fact I rarely see bicyclist. Everyone drives. 

The only thing that works there is a Dualtron Thunder but by then I might as well be on a motorcycle lol.  

[Scatcat]

45 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Virginia Beach (the non Beach part) is literally all 45mph + roads with thin sidewalks on either side. No place for bird/lime scooters. Hell, I can’t even ride my EUC’s there with any enjoyment. The roads are too long between lights and way too fast for an EUC even a 100v Monster wouldn’t work. Cars accelerate like they’re testing their 0-60 at every light.

 I’d be relegated to the very thin and  bumpy sidewalks and having to use the dreaded crosswalks. There are no bike lanes because the roads are just too fast. In fact I rarely see bicyclist. Everyone drives. 

The only thing that works there is a Dualtron Thunder but by then I might as well be on a motorcycle lol.  

All over the world there are roads where the assumption is that the only vehicles will be cars or motorbikes. I think it is kind of inevitable, but nonetheless rather bad. It is especially troublesome in urban or semi-urban environments, especially if there are no overpasses to let the non-metal-box-travelers over in relative safety - and especially if they're not walled off.

The car has for almost a century been the nexus of modern society. Changing where we live and where we work, since distance in itself was no longer the crucial factor. But as always with disruptive technologies that changed the world, they keep being central long after their relevance starts to fade - so driving our behavior even though we know better.

[Larryyla]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:10 AM, Mono said:

Motorcycling is by far the most dangerous (legal) mode of transportation (maybe there are some fringe exceptions, like flying Cessnas, I am always happy to learn) and it is pretty inconceivable to me that EUCing kept below 25km/h could come even close to the fatality rates that we accept for motorcycling.

Proper risk analysis will compare miles traveled per person and I'm sure you will find the Cessna is the safest mode of travel of those discussed here. And it is quite obvious to me that in any activity where injury is possible, skill level makes all the difference.

[Girth Brooks]

5 hours ago, Scatcat said:

 

You Yankees are crazy! What the actual f--k! 

That kind of traffic situation sound like a nightmare unless you're in a SUV. No wonder people go to the shop down the block in their cars, if that is the only way to reasonably predict you'll get there without internal bleeding and broken bones... You have taken the car culture a *bit* far it seems.

Let's hope there is a million Bird/Lime scooters wooing people to leave the car at home. Or whatever comes after Bird/Lime. At least something seems to be needed, to lift actual flesh, blood and bone human beings into prominence in the modern urban environment. I thought we had it bad here.

America really is as crazy in any given instance as everyone on the outside thinks. It's normal for all of us cause we live in it. When you do take a step back though it's very clearly a very wild place. I heard over a thousand rounds of automatic weapon fire yesterday at my best friend's house and it was nothing out of the ordinary. That is a normal Sunday afternoon in rural Tennessee. Seriously.

[Larryyla]

3 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

America really is as crazy in any given instance as everyone on the outside thinks. It's normal for all of us cause we live in it. When you do take a step back though it's very clearly a very wild place. I heard over a thousand rounds of automatic weapon fire yesterday at my best friend's house and it was nothing out of the ordinary. That is a normal Sunday afternoon in rural Tennessee. Seriously.

Come on now, I have lived on this dirt commonly referred to as America for nearly 60 years and I have yet to hear any fully automatic weapons fire. I did hear some shotgun fire the other day as the neighbors were shooting skeet. Thank goodness for the first amendment. As long as we have that, we will not have a "bolshevik revolution" where socialist government kills 50 million innocent people and we can all ride our EUCs in peace.

[Girth Brooks]

@Larryyla Michigan isn't Tennessee the last time I checked. 

[Larryyla]

1 minute ago, Girth Brooks said:

@Larryyla Michigan isn't Tennessee the last time I checked. 

Indeed it is not, but I didn't hear any fully automatic weapons fire when I was visiting Tennesee either. Point is, we don't want to give our friends in other lands the idea that America is dangerous because of our guns, automatic or not. That is a common misconception around the world. Our land remains a very safe place to live and ride our EUCs. Our gun ownership helps politicians to realize that Americans are not pushovers to be trifled with. In places like Chicago where guns have been banned,  criminals have most of the guns and the crime  rates are higher than most of Texas where approximately 50% of the people have guns and the crime rates are much lower.  

The only worry I have while riding my Kingsong is car traffic, and I'd have that same concern anywhere.