Will the EUC be the Transporation Revolution that the Segway fail to achieve?

[Scatcat]

@pst I doubt any Segway reference will disenchant any EUC spectator or potential adopter. The Segway became the niche product it is mainly by its format and its price. I remember the first time I saw a Segway, and thought it would be a fun thing to have. Then I looked it up and saw the $7-9000 price tag, for a pretty brutally heavy vehicle with a max speed of 15mph and a max range of 25 miles.

I realized that while it was fun to ride when I tried it, it was by no means a practical vehicle. Too expensive, too clumsy, too small range compared to expectations and too damn slow. Enter the EUC, that may be heavy to some extent, but still light enough that I can pick it up and carry it up the stairs at work.

Longer range, higher speed, more nimble, a fourth of the price - what's not to love?

[pst]

12 hours ago, Scatcat said:

@pst I doubt any Segway reference will disenchant any EUC spectator or potential adopter. The Segway became the niche product it is mainly by its format and its price. [...] Longer range, higher speed, more nimble, a fourth of the price - what's not to love?

Yes, I hope I'm clear that I am with you on these points 100%... the video made a reference to "people would not buy EUCs because some are made by Ninebot, which is somehow related to Segway, and everyone hates Segways because they are nerdy."  (Paraphrasing )

Even used, most seem to continue to be a couple thousand bucks.  Yet, the cost and nerd factor doesn't stop people from having "Segway tours", whereas I think mass market EUC tours are still a long way off. 

[Scatcat]

8 hours ago, pst said:

Yes, I hope I'm clear that I am with you on these points 100%... the video made a reference to "people would not buy EUCs because some are made by Ninebot, which is somehow related to Segway, and everyone hates Segways because they are nerdy."  (Paraphrasing )

Even used, most seem to continue to be a couple thousand bucks.  Yet, the cost and nerd factor doesn't stop people from having "Segway tours", whereas I think mass market EUC tours are still a long way off. 

The learning curve for a Segway is shallow enough, that a noob can reasonably be expected to handle it after a 20 min introduction course. Nerdy or not, they're good fun for someone unused to self-balancing vehicles. The settings for most Segway tours are well scouted by the instructors, to make sure the team-building tours go as smooth as possible. Finally you almost always have the instructor with you, which means ppl doing stoopid, will learn the consequences from the instructor rather from a face-plant.

But... Going from being goofy with your coworkers when team-building, being goofy together, to being the funny one actually using one of those monsters on an every-day basis - that's a stretch for most people.

The EUC is also goofy in many peoples eyes, but the goofiness is somewhat outbalanced by a hidden admiration for learning to handle it and daring to go on a single wheel at speed. We're looked upon by many as nerds that at the same time are daredevils. So we become nerd-heroes to try to find some relevant term  

OTOH the EUC while being a self balancing vehicle is in many ways the opposite of a Segway. It takes time and effort to learn, which actually makes it a more desirable vehicle for those who persist - but that simple fact makes it impossible for the kind of Segway Adventure outfits we see today.

[Smoother]

3 hours ago, Scatcat said:

So we become nerd-heroes

[Lutalo]

13 hours ago, Scatcat said:

We're looked upon by many as nerds that at the same time are daredevils. So we become nerd-heroes to try to find some relevant term

I dare anyone to call me a nerd; double dare them 💀🤛. There. Having vented I feel much calmer. I can go now and finish building my new PC with tranquility .

[Darrell Wesh]

6 hours ago, Lutalo said:

I dare anyone to call me a nerd; double dare them 💀🤛. There. Having vented I feel much calmer. I can go now and finish building my new PC with tranquility .

Its all in the riding style; I don’t think anyone calls @Tishawn Fahie a nerd when he’s on an EUC 

[houseofjob]

10 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Its all in the riding style; I don’t think anyone calls @Tishawn Fahie a nerd when he’s on an EUC 

LOL, FYI T is pretty nerdy deep inside, he'll probably admit that himself... but we all have that side to us, otherwise we would have never gravitated to EUCs  (or actively participate on this forum) 

But yes, agreed, personal style, both in how you ride and what you wear, can alter the perception and narrative of EUC's, for better or for worse.

[Scatcat]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

LOL, FYI T is pretty nerdy deep inside, he'll probably admit that himself... but we all have that side to us, otherwise we would have never gravitated to EUCs  (or actively participate on this forum) 

But yes, agreed, personal style, both in how you ride and what you wear, can alter the perception and narrative of EUC's, for better or for worse.

Well I WILL get myself a less cumbersome summer helmet, so I can start vaping while riding again. I've been told I look like zipping about is nothing with my tai chi stance and lazy attitude.  

But I AM a nerd at heart. I go totally manic on whatever flavor of the day interest I develop. And I'm f-ing proud of being a nerd. 👊

[Smoother]

When I watch EUCers riding and myself, I think the nerd thing comes from the arms down by our side riding stance.  It just looks, well, nerdy. I think @houseofjob has the right look, that "hand in front of my face" posture looks very "yeah! you wanna a piece of this? Huh? Bring it on A-hole!" look.

Here he is demonstrating both his "don't flock with me" look  AND his asymetric-foot breaking technique

[Scatcat]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

When I watch EUCers riding and myself, I think the nerd thing comes from the arms down by our side riding stance.  It just looks, well, nerdy. I think @houseofjob has the right look, that "hand in front of my face" posture looks very "yeah! you wanna a piece of this? Huh? Bring it on A-hole!" look.

Here he is demonstrating both his "don't flock with me" look  AND his asymetric-foot breaking technique

Well, I've noted on the MSX, that I tend to put the left foot an inch or two further forward than the right. But not that wildly.

[Lutalo]

On 2/12/2019 at 11:13 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

Its all in the riding style; I don’t think anyone calls @Tishawn Fahie a nerd when he’s on an EUC 

I don't think riding style impacts general perception as strongly as marketing spins. However, one established General perception can be a powerful enemy against transforming previous images and removing lingering perception biases. Either way, it's the 21st century; nerds bully jocks.

[Lutalo]

4 hours ago, Smoother said:

When I watch EUCers riding and myself, I think the nerd thing comes from the arms down by our side riding stance. 

Oh, well. I ride with my arms that way. I feel comfortable riding that way. I could care less how I might be perceived; I ride for my own enjoyment and recreation.

Nerd is not the feedback that I get from the public when do encounter their opinions.

Some think the "tai chi" motions and "super hero posing" with the arms look cool; I don't.

Some even think there is some safety utility riding in this fashion; I don't.

I have faceplanted enough times to have my own theories on that phenomenon; nuff said. 

It is perfectly acceptable to me that others like riding this way; I am nobody's judge or jury and to each their own. Go ahead and make it fun for yourself, whatever that might be. But, I do me, at all times, at whatever cost. 

[Girth Brooks]

3 hours ago, Lutalo said:

 "I ride for my own enjoyment and recreation."

, "I do me, at all times, at whatever cost."

Very well said. Absolutely!!!!

[Lutalo]

43 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

Very well said. Absolutely!!!!

👍

[LanghamP]

6 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Nerd is not the feedback that I get from the public when do encounter their opinions.

This doesn't scream "nerd'?

 

[Hsiang]

On 2/12/2019 at 3:21 AM, Scatcat said:

The learning curve for a Segway is shallow enough, that a noob can reasonably be expected to handle it after a 20 min introduction course. Nerdy or not, they're good fun for someone unused to self-balancing vehicles. The settings for most Segway tours are well scouted by the instructors, to make sure the team-building tours go as smooth as possible. Finally you almost always have the instructor with you, which means ppl doing stoopid, will learn the consequences from the instructor rather from a face-plant.

I kinda don't think that the "nerd" factor is a negative anymore, since it has aquired an almost cool status given the sucess of all the tech companies and all the recent movies and show about nerds, and all the hipster whom seem actively trying to look like nerds..

I think the fact that the segway is "easy to learn" is actually a strike against it since anything that is "beginner friendly"; like a bicycle with training wheel also implies that it is juvenile. Which its speed limit also reinforces, I still ride the i5 and that 12.5mph limit is a real drag, you're slower than regular commuter bike speed and will be blocking everyone in the bike lane, and riding around on sidewalk at walking speed just seem completely redundant.

Also, I think it makes a huge difference having the wheel between my legs instead of outside when I ride in a crowd. I can ride next to someone walking and not worry about crushing their feet with my wheels.

[RockyTop]

   It seems to me that the nerds are getting hooked at first sight. Then they are getting their family and friends hooked. So not all of us are nerds. . ........... ...   Yeah! Ok! , Not all of them are nerds. 

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

This doesn't scream "nerd'?

 

🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓👍

[Darrell Wesh]

The Segway would be extremely dangerous at high speeds. I have multiple minipros and miniplus’ with the handlebars and knee bars and completely understand why the speed is limited to 11-12.5mph. The way the wheels are side by side instead of front to back makes it unsafe to turn at high speeds since it wants to still turn on a dime. The best way to describe it is if you tried turning a bikes handlebars at speed instead of leaning into a turn. 

Combine that with the tragic capability of potholes and bumps to jostle you into the steering inputs (knee bar or highly sensitive handlebar) which will have you turning when you never intended to, almost always causing an unplanned get off. 

That damn knee bar especially man. I had a girl on the miniplus going down a hill with a small pothole in the middle of it that she ran into whose bump caused her to tap the knee bar which swung her left when her brain was telling her she was going forward. Rolled down the hill and got all scuffed up. 

[LanghamP]

29 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The Segway would be extremely dangerous at high speeds. I have multiple minipros and miniplus’ with the handlebars and knee bars and completely understand why the speed is limited to 11-12.5mph. The way the wheels are side by side instead of front to back makes it unsafe to turn at high speeds since it wants to still turn on a dime. The best way to describe it is if you tried turning a bikes handlebars at speed instead of leaning into a turn. 

Combine that with the tragic capability of potholes and bumps to jostle you into the steering inputs (knee bar or highly sensitive handlebar) which will have you turning when you never intended to, almost always causing an unplanned get off.  

Having ridden the mini project and observed the bigger Segways, I believe Segways are much much harder to ride than EUCs, because there's many small and one big factor that wrecks you.

Hit a bump, or a hole, or a bush, step, whatever, and you do a little uh oh in the Segway. Those are the small factors.

The big one, that one that absolutely smokes you and leaves your body a broken mass on the sidewalk is the Segway's ability to turn quickly and get well to the side and under your center of gravity, thereby flinging your surprised ass off. You alluded to this as extremely dangerous, and I agree, but I'll go further and say this lack of high speed control makes the mini pro require an exceptional rider.

Hoverboards are ten times worse. With the mini pro you have to at least lean in order to move the steering column while there's no such requirement with hoverboards, to hilarious results.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Having ridden the mini project and observed the bigger Segways, I believe Segways are much much harder to ride than EUCs, because there's many small and one big factor that wrecks you.

Hit a bump, or a hole, or a bush, step, whatever, and you do a little uh oh in the Segway. Those are the small factors.

The big one, that one that absolutely smokes you and leaves your body a broken mass on the sidewalk is the Segway's ability to turn quickly and get well to the side and under your center of gravity, thereby flinging your surprised ass off. You alluded to this as extremely dangerous, and I agree, but I'll go further and say this lack of high speed control makes the mini pro require an exceptional rider.

Hoverboards are ten times worse. With the mini pro you have to at least lean in order to move the steering column while there's no such requirement with hoverboards, to hilarious results.

Yep exactly what I’m saying. It feels extremely unnatural to ride the minipro after riding EUC’s (which seem like an extension of our body and mind). The ability of the Segway to turn 360 degrees in the same spot is excellent for standing still but horrible for moving at speed. 

It didn’t matter how much I rode it and how  good I thought I was l, I was always susceptible to getting thrown off if I accidentally bumped the steering and it went a direction I didn’t intend. 

[Scatcat]

11 hours ago, Hsiang said:

I kinda don't think that the "nerd" factor is a negative anymore, since it has aquired an almost cool status given the sucess of all the tech companies and all the recent movies and show about nerds, and all the hipster whom seem actively trying to look like nerds..

I think the fact that the segway is "easy to learn" is actually a strike against it since anything that is "beginner friendly"; like a bicycle with training wheel also implies that it is juvenile. Which its speed limit also reinforces, I still ride the i5 and that 12.5mph limit is a real drag, you're slower than regular commuter bike speed and will be blocking everyone in the bike lane, and riding around on sidewalk at walking speed just seem completely redundant.

Also, I think it makes a huge difference having the wheel between my legs instead of outside when I ride in a crowd. I can ride next to someone walking and not worry about crushing their feet with my wheels.

Yes, the low speed is actually a nuisance for others, like bicyclists or cars. You go too fast for a pedestrian sidewalk, and too slow for the bike lane.

 

 

7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The Segway would be extremely dangerous at high speeds. I have multiple minipros and miniplus’ with the handlebars and knee bars and completely understand why the speed is limited to 11-12.5mph. The way the wheels are side by side instead of front to back makes it unsafe to turn at high speeds since it wants to still turn on a dime. The best way to describe it is if you tried turning a bikes handlebars at speed instead of leaning into a turn. 

Combine that with the tragic capability of potholes and bumps to jostle you into the steering inputs (knee bar or highly sensitive handlebar) which will have you turning when you never intended to, almost always causing an unplanned get off. 

That damn knee bar especially man. I had a girl on the miniplus going down a hill with a small pothole in the middle of it that she ran into whose bump caused her to tap the knee bar which swung her left when her brain was telling her she was going forward. Rolled down the hill and got all scuffed up. 

That tendency to get out of control is what I refer to as the "Segway Dance".

 

 

6 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Having ridden the mini project and observed the bigger Segways, I believe Segways are much much harder to ride than EUCs, because there's many small and one big factor that wrecks you.

Hit a bump, or a hole, or a bush, step, whatever, and you do a little uh oh in the Segway. Those are the small factors.

The big one, that one that absolutely smokes you and leaves your body a broken mass on the sidewalk is the Segway's ability to turn quickly and get well to the side and under your center of gravity, thereby flinging your surprised ass off. You alluded to this as extremely dangerous, and I agree, but I'll go further and say this lack of high speed control makes the mini pro require an exceptional rider.

Hoverboards are ten times worse. With the mini pro you have to at least lean in order to move the steering column while there's no such requirement with hoverboards, to hilarious results.

Yes, the Segway Dance makes all side-by-side balance vehicles deceptively simple, but in truth pretty hazardous. Remember this one?

 

 

5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Yep exactly what I’m saying. It feels extremely unnatural to ride the minipro after riding EUC’s (which seem like an extension of our body and mind). The ability of the Segway to turn 360 degrees in the same spot is excellent for standing still but horrible for moving at speed. 

It didn’t matter how much I rode it and how  good I thought I was l, I was always susceptible to getting thrown off if I accidentally bumped the steering and it went a direction I didn’t intend. 

We steer our EUCs by weight alone. Sure we push the pedals and such, but in reality it is centre of gravity that makes all control possible. The Segway steering column may seem like a simpler way of steering, but in reality it's the other way around.

[Smoother]

50 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Yes, the Segway Dance makes all side-by-side balance vehicles deceptively simple, but in truth pretty hazardous. Remember this one?

 

 

We steer our EUCs by weight alone. Sure we push the pedals and such, but in reality it is centre of gravity that makes all control possible. The Segway steering column may seem like a simpler way of steering, but in reality it's the other way around.

There was definitely room for improvement in the segway. firmware.  example: If you're riding over mud, and one wheel goes into a soft spot, that wheel will spin up to max speed while the other in practically stationary.  If the spinning wheel finally grabs somethying, it shoots forward wildly tossing you off into the mud puddle.  Now how hard would it have been to write "limited slip differential" code so that one wheel never span more than x% faster than the other, and even less% if the other, is barely moving? Not difficult at all I suspect.

BTW, everyone always calls them Segways, but technically Segway was just the brand.  The product was officially an "HT" standing for Human Transporter. Segway also made the iBot (I think that was the name) a self balancing (4 wheel) wheelchair.

 

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, Scatcat said:

Yes, the Segway Dance makes all side-by-side balance vehicles deceptively simple, but in truth pretty hazardous. Remember this one?

 

 

We steer our EUCs by weight alone. Sure we push the pedals and such, but in reality it is centre of gravity that makes all control possible. The Segway steering column may seem like a simpler way of steering, but in reality it's the other way around.

Yes, the Segway is seemingly the reverse of center of gravity steering which is why it’s so easy to lose control of it.

I had got quite good at this reverse center of gravity steering so when I got my first EUC it was quite difficult for me to learn how to turn even though I could push start unassisted and go forward easily. I had to unlearn my minipro steering since it was the opposite, and consequently put handlebars on all my segways instead of kneebars. 

[Nic]

That Segway was behaving exactly as designed ... after running one wheel up the barrier, the cameraman tried to hold his balance by putting his weight onto his right foot and towards the front of the tilted Segway, which then accelerated. This is how its meant to work. I suppose its possible to train yourself to better deal with these types of situations when they happen rather than reacting instinctively and causing your Segway to accelerate. The cameraman wasn't exactly looking where he was going.