Jump to content
Hsiang

Will the EUC be the Transporation Revolution that the Segway fail to achieve?

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Better hope you don’t come across a Dualtron that’ll show any EUC “something better” 😄😄

Dualtrons are very cool mega e-scooters, but they fall short of the versatility and convenience offered by EUCs. It reaches a point where they become more like stand-on motorcycles. 

No Dual-hickey will ever be able to be ported like a briefcase that you can ride really fast 😉👍

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

 

40053149153_1e273ce78b_b.jpg

 

Well, I'm not sure, because I've only seen him front on, but Isn't that the @The Fat Unicyclist demonstrating the latest King Song scooter on an infamous New Zealand hill?  I don't know, Something doesn't look right, I can't put my finger on it. :whistling:

Edited by Smoother
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Dualtrons are very cool mega e-scooters, but they fall short of the versatility and convenience offered by EUCs. It reaches a point where they become more like stand-on motorcycles. 

No Dual-hickey will ever be able to be ported like a briefcase that you can ride really fast 😉👍

Excellent point. My wheel fits in a shopping bag so I can carry it into the office without making a mess. Dualtron would have to be parked outside somewhere.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rehab1 said:

This handsome photo explains why @The Fat Unicyclist ‘s business is thriving. How many EUC business owners will personally deliver a wheel to your front door.  A gentleman in my book. 

46108610765_7c3d49181b_b.jpg

 

 

THE GOATEE!! That's what's different.  Thanks, that was driving me crazy.;) Nice T shirt.  I've seen that symbol somewhere before.  Now where was it? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

Excellent point. My wheel fits in a shopping bag so I can carry it into the office without making a mess. Dualtron would have to be parked outside somewhere.

That’s one heavy duty shopping bag 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s one heavy duty shopping bag 

The Aldi and Trader Joe weird cotton and plastic (?) bags can easily carry a KS16.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s one heavy duty shopping bag 

Absolutely realistic. Now, They have the fabric and vinyl grocery bags that you can purchase and reuse infinitely. Wifey is all over those joants. She keeps them in the car door pockets, cargo area, etc,. They come real handy and will carry a small EUC too :D👍 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s one heavy duty shopping bag 

It's one of those reusable fabric bags, turns out to be the perfect size. I did a lot of experiments before realizing I couldn't improve on the simplest solution. It takes up almost no space in the backpack when travelling as well.

Even though it can carry the 50lbs of wheel I still carry the wheel by the handle, I just wrap the bag handles around the wheel handle and carry the lot of them together. The bag is just there to catch the snow that melts off the wheel in the time it takes to get it upstairs and into the storage bucket under the desk.

Edited by winterwheel
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Lutalo said:

:D. Is it Netherlandese or Netherlandites? Not sure. 

Try "Dutch" :P 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Try "Dutch" :P 

Doink! :efee78d764::efee78d764: Well, in my own defense "Dutch" from Netherlands is not exactly intuitive. :D:D:D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2019 at 7:10 AM, RockyTop said:

Start them off young. I bet this person will be riding an EUC soon. 

 

I watched the Amsterdam video by Non Stop Neal. He said that EUC’s are not legal on the bike paths yet you see mopeds on the bike paths. That does not make any sense. They must really hate EUCs

Youngin is already tricking and everything. Probably a good idea to start them out on these little toy doohickeys and then graduate them to EUCs :D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, winterwheel said:

It's one of those reusable fabric bags, turns out to be the perfect size. I did a lot of experiments before realizing I couldn't improve on the simplest solution. It takes up almost no space in the backpack when travelling as well.

Even though it can carry the 50lbs of wheel I still carry the wheel by the handle, I just wrap the bag handles around the wheel handle and carry the lot of them together. The bag is just there to catch the snow that melts off the wheel in the time it takes to get it upstairs and into the storage bucket under the desk.

Nice solution. Why didn't I think of that? Oh. Because I am not @winterwheel expert pioneer of EUC snowmobiling :D

Edited by Lutalo
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2019 at 8:17 AM, Lutalo said:

 

I don't think that the safety issue is that big of a deal if the wheels are properly introduced early enough. Parents buy their children dangerous-ish devices all the time; skateboards, bicycles, inline skates. They do this because they want their children to approach life as fearless risk-takers they want them to build confidence and learn to overcome limitations by conquering challenges. They want this for their children all the while fearing for their safety; thus, the risk they allow will be calculated. EUCs can be successful if sellers learn to understand and key into people's needs at the most basic levels.

In this effort the approach to cultural integration matters much more than the device itself IMHO. 

The problem with this analogy is it’s comparing it to manual modes of transportation. Even if you threw in an ebike or escooter it’s still not the same as a machine seemingly shutting off on you when you accidentally lean too far forward. 

And you know moms will not have any understanding of WHY it’s user error that caused a cut out, all they will say is that the machine is “faulty” or malfunctioned and threw their kid off. This is a BIG deal IMO.

Imagine an EUC being a hot holiday buy and the next couple weeks mass reports of “malfunctioning” units that threw their kids to the ground at 16mph breaking wrists and chipping teeth. You don’t experience tiltback or beeps on an overlean it just shuts off. If the machine is underpowered you could hit a bump and not experience the safety mechanisms either before cut off. You’d have kids saying they do experience the safety beeps and tiltback and kids who say they didn’t before they fell thus a “malfunction” and an unsafe device. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The problem with this analogy is it’s comparing it to manual modes of transportation.

That's what is limiting about any analogy when dealing with unprecedented situations. Without specific case history you can only compare to similar established behavior to make assessments of what might happen. My assessment is informed only by what can supply similar information - bicycles. So you are correct sir; limited, but not without merit :D

It is True that dealing with a new device may invoke different responses. Some people are not very trusting of new things.

However, I think that the behavior pattern is much stronger than the threat posed by the technology in this case because the reasons parents buy dangerousish devices remain constant. 

As a parent of three boys I understood my reasons for exposing them to danger; in the most controlled way possible of course.

I encouraged them to fly. To destroy limitations. They needed to know that their sheer will was much stronger than any system or outside force, and that what they deserved from life was constrained by two things: limited imagination and unlimited fear.

To thrive they needed to believe in themselves. I know of no way to accomplish this without exposing them to danger. 

Not everyone thinks or turns a thing the same way in their minds to weigh risk vs reward. So, some parents might feel like EUCs are too dangerous; the reliability of the devices will mitigate this for some,  but not everyone. When I discovered EUCs I bought two. My son's jumped on them taught themselves to ride and then taught me. That's how I know that my parenting approach worked as intended. Even If they were only 5 years old I would have at least bought a gateway device :)👍

Edited by Lutalo
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Also the tariff trade-war with China hasn't help the situation either.. 

It's straightforward math to calculate the social benefit of eScooters and bicycles, so much so that eScooters should be heavily subsidized, possibly to the point of free or even a minor reward for using them (for example, Barcelona pays people to bicycle).

Instead, we tax eScooters heavily as a 20% tax is proportionally much more than the 2.5% tax we place on cars.

To reiterate:

20 % tax on electrics.

2.5 % tax on cars.

Other people have thought this through and let me indirectly quote them.

--With foldable eScooters you can keep your rickety public transportation while providing 50-80 % of your riders the last portion of their trip.

--Each parking space costs between $7500 to $35000 (multilevel parking lot). Just not building one parking spot means you can give away between 7 to 35 eScooters / bikes than cost $1000. Not building a parking lot means you can give away a scooter for most of the  people living on that block.

--Trolleys cost about 30 million dollars per mile of track laid. Instead of building new trolleys, somewhat of a fad in the US, why not buy a dozen overpriced electric buses at a million each, and 20,000 eScooters. That's for each mile. Two miles and we're talking 24 buses and 40,000 eScooters. That's a huge amount of transportation coverage.

--The avalanche of evidence that shows PM2.5 as being extraordinarily harmful to people's health. It doesn't kill them so much as make people sick, overweight, and autistic before eventually killing them, and that most of PM2.5 comes from tires kicking up dust on high-speed roads and diesel engines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good video @Hsiang, fun and informative.

Almost everybody thinks EUCs are cool. But nobody rides them. Except those who can afford to; because of financial costs, health and overall risks.

So the general public is sometimes aware, and when aware, is generally not hostile. 

If we want to change the demographics of our userbase, then more general public awareness is required, in order to increase our capital of sympathy. By taking the segway route ( get a big company, or a multitude of small ones, to invest in the market, and get the authorities to allow and accompany a wider adoption ), we are able to reduce the cost of adoption and increase the safety of the practice, and thus attract more and different people.

Creating such a market requires a common set of norms and standards. Currenlty discussed at the European Union level: https://standards.cen.eu/dyn/www/f?p=204:110:0::::FSP_PROJECT,FSP_LANG_ID:40453,34&cs=1EAA033637508C79B4D7E753E16B8F8B2 . Sorry, in french. This is not enough, as we also need standards regarding other things like cycle lanes, insurance policies, cycle to work schemes, public transport rules, urban planifications, etc ...

Once the playing field is well defined, then companies can compete, from inside the internal market or from outside ( with tariffs etc ... ) and provide the devices and services that consumers want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, gena said:

Creating such a market requires a common set of norms and standards. Currenlty discussed at the European Union level: https://standards.cen.eu/dyn/www/f?p=204:110:0::::FSP_PROJECT,FSP_LANG_ID:40453,34&cs=1EAA033637508C79B4D7E753E16B8F8B2 . Sorry, in french. This is not enough, as we also need standards regarding other things like cycle lanes, insurance policies, cycle to work schemes, public transport rules, urban planifications, etc ...

No problem about the French, I can read French (after google translate has done it's job ;)).  Here's an interesting quote from this document:

This European Standard does not apply to: - vehicles considered as toys; - vehicles with a seat, without self-balancing system; - the vehicles planned for the competition; - electrically assisted cycles (EPAC); - vehicles and / or devices intended for use under medical supervision; - electric vehicles with a maximum speed greater than 25 km / h; - vehicles ..."

So even my old, lowly KS14C would not qualify, having a top speed of 30kph.  Yeah, I know that can be limited in the app, but regulators go by manufacturers data.  Most experienced EUC riders wont ride this slow for extended periods.  Ironically, I will.  Speed is not my goal as I don't commute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

A much more sane way of limiting the dangers of over-speeding, is to clearly mark the bike paths with the max speed limit. Non electric 18 gear bikes with half-inch wide tires and spandex marauders on the saddle routinely run 40 or sometimes even 50 kph on the bike paths. Their braking potential is pretty damn limited, and their focus tend to be glued to going as fast as possible, to their bike computers and to overtaking as many as possible as crazy as possible. In comparison neither the e-scooters, the EUCs or even the mopeds are even close to as dangerous.

So clear signs on the bike path that shows the speed limit, warns when you don't have the right of way etcetera would be a much better regulator of traffic behavior than some arbitrary speed limit on the hardware.

eBikes take up the majority of bicycle deaths in the Netherlands, for the first time in a long time surpassing people killed I cars (2016 bicyclists versus 201 motorists).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/older-men-using-e-bikes-behind-rising-death-toll-among-dutch-cyclists

It's not the Spandex crows that is dying; while race bicyclists (who don't necessarily race) crash much more often than urban and city bicyclists, eBike riders crash and die more often than those two.

eBikes regardless of limiters and speed limits are quite dangerous to their users.

In this article the major reason for deaths and injuries is aluded to without being specifically mentioned.

Peter van der Knaap, director of the Dutch Road Safety Research Foundation, said older men were too confident in their ability not only to cycle at the speeds e-bikes make possible but also to mount or dismount the bike in the first place. 

The inability to dismount a Dutch men's bike with a high and perfectly horizontal crossbar is the major factor in eBike deaths and has been cited in other articles that I'm too lazy to find. Simply getting rid of bikes with horizontal bars would see a dramatic drop in eBike deaths.

200 deaths is low; the US has a traffic death rate six times higher than the Netherlands with a fire death rate of about double; in the US local road ordinance requires a minimum road width that is less wide than a standard fire truck. Usually that minimum road width is overruled by the local fire chief so their trucks can fit, but then the wider lane allows a much higher speed limit (20 mph vs 40) with results in more fatal crashes. The resulting number of increased deaths is many times greater than the lives lost in fires.

My suggestion:

Get rid of horizontal cross bars on bicycles.

Halve the size of fire trucks.

All lanes on all streets should be between 7 to 9 feet wide, with a blanket 20 mph limit, within the city. All roads can be whatever speed and width you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

with a blanket 20 mph limit, within the city

Funny enough, most of London now has that.

However if you are going to make a statement like: "eBikes take up the majority of bicycle deaths in the Netherlands"

you should probably read the article you linked, more carefully.  The article says

"In 2017, 206 cyclists were killed in the Netherlands"

then the article says

"A quarter of the cyclists were on e-bikes,."

So your article actually says 1/4 of cycle deaths are e-bike related, not a majority, which would technically be 50.1% or higher.

Edited by Smoother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

eBikes take up the majority of bicycle deaths in the Netherlands, for the first time in a long time surpassing people killed I cars (2016 bicyclists versus 201 motorists).

A couple of corrections.

It is 206 deaths not 2016, and that is for all cyclists not just e-bikes. EBike deaths were only about 51.

38 of the eBike deaths were men, and 31 of those were men over 65.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I liked the video, too, though I'm not sure I ever got much out of how the Z10 is. :)

I agree the original Segway was a little "nerdy" but I'm very doubtful it singlehandedly derailed personal transportation for 17 years.  And for 100% sure, nobody is avoiding EUCs because a fraction of the units in operation somewhere on the planet say "Ninebot" if you squint real hard.  I doubt most people even know Ninebot as a brand has anything to do with Segway.

It's hard to judge how the market will perceive something.  Those sit-down EUCs are another example... they could be really positive (you're riding half a motorcycle, how magical!) or really negative (you're riding half a motorcycle, where's the other half, tryhard, back at the mothership!?).  More likely, it will be a blend of both, depending who is observing.

For better or worse, two-wheeled vehicles are inherently less dangerous, and you can't "transform society" with a product that occasionally randomly causes moderate injury to its users.  Indeed, I'm a younger-middle-aged, fully able-bodied person, well accustomed to balancing tasks, and I can still feel where my S2 caught me in the ankle when I was learning to ride a couple years ago.  Incidentally I never had a severe injury learning to ride a bike, because: 1) it did not actively speed itself up to run over me, and 2) you can put your feet out and still move while you're on a bike.

The analogy with bike riding is not quite right, in my opinion... to me it's more like learning to ride, well, a unicycle.  One where you must never move your feet.

I made a couple posts early last year (one in Safety, one in General Discussion) regarding my ongoing thoughts about making EUCs safer, and a minority voiced any interest in safety... indeed, a couple even said something to the effect that "it's no fun if you take the risk away".  I'm not saying that mentality is good or bad, but as long as it persists, EUCs will likely not appeal to a mass market, or if they ever do, it will only be until a major lawsuit causes a flurry of bad press.

Of course the promise of life-changing alternative transportation has been around forever.  Governments can't do very well integrating ESTABLISHED modes of transit (pedestrians, bicyclists, and vehicular traffic), despite decades of effort, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

And of course there's the weather issue.

The comparison to the iPhone and Steve Jobs is a bit of a stretch, but I already made this response too long. :)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, winterwheel said:

A couple of corrections.

It is 206 deaths not 2016, and that is for all cyclists not just e-bikes. EBike deaths were only about 51.

38 of the eBike deaths were men, and 31 of those were men over 65.

My bad. 206 not 2016.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×