Heyzeus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Scatcat said: On the minus column is the rather high price point. At that price they should be almost indestructible. I just don't get it, like you are charging a premium price why not spend the piddly extra dollars in material costs and make it truly premium, hell even if you passed the extra cost on to consumers to maintain the same profit margin I'm sure most consumers wouldn't mind paying the extra amount to have a truly premium product. When I read some older threads (2015-2016) where EUCs had motor wires melting and controllers/mosfets burning up, Axel's breaking etc. I didn't understand why they didn't just use super high-quality premium parts in the first place. like rather than having multiple iterations where you start out with 16 gauge then go to 14 gauge wire, why not just use 10-12 guage wire. maybe there was an engineering reason for it like with a lower gauge it was harder to get as much winding and not enough power as a result but if that's not the case I don't know why you wouldnt just pay the extra cost and air on the side of caution and pass the extra cost on the consumers. If the difference in price was $100 of wire / copper cost I would happily pay it for the added durability and safety. Same with the controllers and other components. Most of the enthusiasts here it seems would rather have high quality and durability as opposed to cheap, and if you still wanted to be really cheap you could have lower priced cheap models for those who don't care. Luckily from recent threads it seems that things have gotten better with manufacturer's using thicker wires, thicker axles, and better mosfets. use the highest quality parts charge me a few hundred dollars extra and I'll be fine with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olav Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Heyzeus said: Luckily from recent threads it seems that things have gotten better with manufacturer's using thicker wires, thicker axles, and better mosfets. use the highest quality parts charge me a few hundred dollars extra and I'll be fine with it. You say that, but would you really? Option 1: 18" wheel, 1600Wh battery, 2000W motor, AWG 10 wire, best MOSFETs and 20mm axle. 2100 USD Option 2: 18" wheel, 1600Wh battery, 2000W motor, AWG 20 wire, subpar MOSFETs and 16mm axle. 1900 USD Most people would probably choose option 2... (untill reviews finds this and/or accident storys appear) The difference in cost between the two wouldn't be that much, but I'm making a point here I would like to think I would choose option 1, but, to be honest, I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyzeus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) I would choose option 1 in a heartbeat. If I'm already paying $1,900 what's 200 extra dollars for something that's going to be a lot more durable probably. It's the same s*** Apple/and now Microsoft (and others) have pulled with their high-end laptops, make these awesome looking premium devices and then cheap out on quality control and have huge numbers of screen problems and other small problems and screw over the consumer. some people get a system and have no problems with it in 5 years other people have to go through four systems in the first year to get one without problems. I hate the lottery that buying high-end consumer electronics has become today. It's really not fair with the warranties offered either, spend two to $3,000 on a brand new system have something go wrong with it outside of the first 30 days and bam you get a refurbished system in exchange. so now you return a beautiful new looking system and get a scratch and dent system for your two to three thousand dollars you just spent. It is so anti-consumer and it should be illegal in the US. From what I hear Australia and Europe have better consumer protection laws but I don't know the details. the inconvenience of having to return a system and reset up a new one is so great that I would happily pay an extra few hundred dollars just to not have to deal with it. I would pay the premium for a system that had a warranty that guaranteed a new system in exchange if your system failed due to a manufacturer defect in the first 2 years. anyways, I do understand your point but maybe I'm not your typical consumer and I'm ranting and digressing and side tracking the thread so I should probably stop lol. Edited February 22, 2019 by Heyzeus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Heyzeus said: I just don't get it, like you are charging a premium price why not spend the piddly extra dollars in material costs and make it truly premium, hell even if you passed the extra cost on to consumers to maintain the same profit margin I'm sure most consumers wouldn't mind paying the extra amount to have a truly premium product. When I read some older threads (2015-2016) where EUCs had motor wires melting and controllers/mosfets burning up, Axel's breaking etc. I didn't understand why they didn't just use super high-quality premium parts in the first place. like rather than having multiple iterations where you start out with 16 gauge then go to 14 gauge wire, why not just use 10-12 guage wire. maybe there was an engineering reason for it like with a lower gauge it was harder to get as much winding and not enough power as a result but if that's not the case I don't know why you wouldnt just pay the extra cost and air on the side of caution and pass the extra cost on the consumers. If the difference in price was $100 of wire / copper cost I would happily pay it for the added durability and safety. Same with the controllers and other components. Most of the enthusiasts here it seems would rather have high quality and durability as opposed to cheap, and if you still wanted to be really cheap you could have lower priced cheap models for those who don't care. Luckily from recent threads it seems that things have gotten better with manufacturer's using thicker wires, thicker axles, and better mosfets. use the highest quality parts charge me a few hundred dollars extra and I'll be fine with it. In this case I think it's a case of bad procurement. Most (just about all) the textile-type stuff we buy are sewn in Asian factories. Not that there's anything wrong with good Asian factories, they're quite as good as our own. But to get the most competitive prices, the production has moved around quite a lot. At one point it may have been in one country, then as that country gets more affluent and regulated it moves to another where the production costs are lower. Then they in turn get better wages and conditions, and it moves again. Those that sell premium stuff tend to be less about the lowest possible price point and more about as low a price as possible for the best quality possible. Then you try to steer away from the latest, cheapest areas and accept a bit higher costs. I return you get well established factories where the people earn enough to make a living, the tempo is humane, and the quality control is reasonably good. But as you shop around, what the factory claim they do and what how they actually handle their production is not necessarily the same thing. You may have paid for better production, with high quality control, but what you actually get is the "sweat shop" quality (yeah right) stuff, while the extra money goes straight into the fraudulent factory owners pocket. With a bit of luck the quality is still good enough, but quite often it isn't. Really big brands like Nike and such, open their own factories, where they have the control over both tempo, salaries, conditions and quality control. That way they're not in the hands of local owners that may or may not be what you expect them to be. But smaller brands like Knox or Flatland 3D don't have that kind of muscle. So they may well have paid enough in a known good area to expect good results, and gotten shit anyways. In the case of wiring for EUCs and so on, the mentality in Shenshen overall seem to still be "good enough, but no more". Why spend an extra five dollars for higher gauge wire, when that means a custom shaft rather than stock parts to accommodate the thicker wires, which is another 25 dollars? And why spend twelve times five dollars more to get higher specced MOS when the cheaper stuff probably will suffice? Especially since the higher specced parts has a larger footprint, and so need more careful design to fit into the compartment and still stay cool. Going for the best stuff adds a few dollars here, and a few dollars there, until your product cost another $100-200 in production. As there is a long queue of people that stand to make money on the product before it reaches the customer, the margin may be good on paper, but each layer gets a small part of it. So for the profit to stay where they hope it will, the cost has to be pushed all the way to the customer. Now. If all the customers were westerners with fat pocketbooks, and face it, we have fat pocketbooks as compared to the locals - especially considering the relative values of our currencies - then this extra cost would be no big deal. WE can afford a couple of hundred bucks extra, knowing that the extra cost means we heavy westerners won't wipe out because of a burnt MOS or melted wire. But the main market is not us, it's local - and eventually global. All the potential customers can't absorb a few hundred bucks extra. That will mean less sales, which is less profit, which means less R&D and so on. We'll get there, but we still have some way to go. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, Heyzeus said: I would choose option 1 in a heartbeat. If I'm already paying $1,900 what's 200 extra dollars for something that's going to be a lot more durable probably. It's the same s*** Apple/and now Microsoft (and others) have pulled with their high-end laptops, make these awesome looking premium devices and then cheap out on quality control and have huge numbers of screen problems and other small problems and screw over the consumer. some people get a system and have no problems with it in 5 years other people have to go through four systems in the first year to get one without problems. I hate the lottery that buying high-end consumer electronics has become today. It's really not fair with the warranties offered either, spend two to $3,000 on a brand new system have something go wrong with it outside of the first 30 days and bam you get a refurbished system in exchange. so now you return a beautiful new looking system and get a scratch and dent system for your two to three thousand dollars you just spent. It is so anti-consumer and it should be illegal in the US. From what I hear Australia and Europe have better consumer protection laws but I don't know the details. the inconvenience of having to return a system and reset up a new one is so great that I would happily pay an extra few hundred dollars just to not have to deal with it. I would pay the premium for a system that had a warranty that guaranteed a new system in exchange if your system failed due to a manufacturer defect in the first 2 years. anyways, I do understand your point but maybe I'm not your typical consumer and I'm ranting and digressing and side tracking the thread so I should probably stop lol. Yes, we have better consumer protection. So far, I might add...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyzeus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 @Scatcat your point about local customers(mainland China) and outside customers and the difference in pocketbook is a good one. I guess while $200 to me might not be a whole lot (though still a decent amount as a student), it could mean an extra six months or year of saving for someone in a country like China. I would love to see a company like Honda or Toyota do an EUC but I wonder if they would ever even risk it given the potential liability concerns they might face as a large multinational corporation. I imagine gotway and King song are relatively well insulated from lawsuits outside of China whereas Honda and Toyota not so much if a component were to fail and someone were to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Heyzeus said: @Scatcat your point about local customers(mainland China) and outside customers and the difference in pocketbook is a good one. I guess while $200 to me might not be a whole lot (though still a decent amount as a student), it could mean an extra six months or year of saving for someone in a country like China. I would love to see a company like Honda or Toyota do an EUC but I wonder if they would ever even risk it given the potential liability concerns they might face as a large multinational corporation. I imagine gotway and King song are relatively well insulated from lawsuits outside of China whereas Honda and Toyota not so much if a component were to fail and someone were to die. Well, I don't know the actual median situation for a middle class person in all countries on the board. But looking at Sweden, using a typical 40-50 year old middle class family with three kids of different ages, I'd say the economy looks a bit like this (very loose approximation): Two incomes, netting about $5-6K monthly. Housing/apartment costs around $1-1.5K Nursing school for the small one, $100 School costs for the mid and older kids: $0-100 Extracurricular activities for the kids $100-500 Food at home: $500-800 Mortgages (except housing), electricity, Internet, other misc bills: $400 Phone bills: $300 Lunches, taxis, commuting: $800 Total in bills and recurring costs: $3.2-4.8K So a typical middle class family with two incomes and a reasonably relaxed lifestyle. Not big spenders but not frugal either. They will have somewhere between a couple of hundred bucks up to a couple of thousand bucks spending money when all the necessities are paid for. Some more if you cut some of the costs wisely. Spending money does not mean they're totally free to use for EUCs or some such though, not unless you want angry kids and a divorce on your hands... And not of course if you actually want to have any savings to your name. But all in all while some of that money has a name on it, you can basically afford as a family to absorb costs up to at least a K or so at any given time. With a bit of planning shaking loose $2K for a EUC is not in any way that wild a thing to do. While the net income might be higher in the US or some other EU-country, and in return the costs for nursing schools, schools, insurances and so might also be higher - I suspect the actual "free" movable money is about the same overall. The western middle class person can afford to say $200 is not a big deal. In comparison, a sales agent in China, that represents some fairly minor tech company make maybe $1-1.5K That is a Chinese equivalent to our middle class person. The whole family may net $2-2.5K or so, basically a third of my Swedish example, their recurring costs are about a third to half. While their standard of living is not on another planet compared to the first family, the difference becomes stark when you start talking about those products with a lesser cost difference between areas. So take a EUC. While the internal price in China is not the price we get, the difference is still a lot less than most other daily costs. And a higher price because of premium part differ almost nothing at all. So they have to absorb $200 that for them is like absorbing a cost of $400. Proportionally the difference is not just a little more painful, it may well be the difference between buying or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I was just about to post to ask about gloves when I came across this thread the Flatland 3D E-Skate gloves seem to be just what I'm looker for...or did, until I started reading the comments on quality issues... I'm currently using thin MTB glove under my wrist guards, so as to not lose the abrasion protection / slide factor, but have to admit, on longer rides, where I make several stops, it's a real pain to have to take off my wrist guards, then gloves, every time I stop for a coffee, etc. I've considered putting getting some large motocycle gloves (the kind that'll slide on the asphalt) I can put over my wrist guards...but would kind of fancy having just one set of equipment that meets all me needs: wrist protection, hand protection, warmth and touch-screen capable. A lot of people I know use motocross gloves and say they offer a certain degree of wrist protection, but I have to say I'm fairly sceptical; also, motocross gloves are designed with knuckle protection in mind, and good grip on the palm, as opposed to what we riders need. What would those of you who have tried the different options (Hillybilly, Triple 8, Flatland 3d) recommend? Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tihoa Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, travsformation said: I was just about to post to ask about gloves when I came across this thread the Flatland 3D E-Skate gloves seem to be just what I'm looker for...or did, until I started reading the comments on quality issues... I'm currently using thin MTB glove under my wrist guards, so as to not lose the abrasion protection / slide factor, but have to admit, on longer rides, where I make several stops, it's a real pain to have to take off my wrist guards, then gloves, every time I stop for a coffee, etc. I've considered putting getting some large motocycle gloves (the kind that'll slide on the asphalt) I can put over my wrist guards...but would kind of fancy having just one set of equipment that meets all me needs: wrist protection, hand protection, warmth and touch-screen capable. A lot of people I know use motocross gloves and say they offer a certain degree of wrist protection, but I have to say I'm fairly sceptical; also, motocross gloves are designed with knuckle protection in mind, and good grip on the palm, as opposed to what we riders need. What would those of you who have tried the different options (Hillybilly, Triple 8, Flatland 3d) recommend? Thanks in advance! Here's a few comments on the gloves I've tried: Hillbilly Half Fingers - My favorite so far. It uses one large velcro strap so getting them on and off is super fast and you can use your fingers for accessing your phone, zippers, etc. They don't reach too far into the wrist/arm so it allows for a lot of movement and a normal jacket can go over them easily. They're also pretty cheap online. Hillbilly Full Fingers - Hate them. These use a 3 velcro strap system that's not convenient to put on or adjust. The glove fingers don't have much stretch so if they don't fit your hands perfectly you'll have awkward wiggle room on the tips of your fingers which makes it cumbersome to get keys out of your pocket, use your zippers, grab your wallet, etc. Flexmeter Wrist Guards - My 2nd most favorite. It's got double sided flex protection so they're the safest of the bunch. I can wear a thin pair of winter gloves under the wrist guards and they work perfectly in cold weather, they're super adjustable. But they take up a lot of your wrist/arm (they're long) so I find it hard to tuck them into a normal jacket arm hole, you'll have to use a jacket with a flexible cuff or zippered like motorcycle jackets. In warm/hot weather you won't have any of the jacket issues, but because the guards are still so long it may not work in combination with some of the elbow guards out there (they'll hit each other). You also can't fit a normal watch strap over them, if you got a smartwatch you'll have to use an oversized watch strap or somehow attach the unit to the guards via velcro or something. Flatland 3D E-Skate - I made this whole post about them! They still have quality issues: there is major pilling of the fabric on my fingertips after a month of use (most likely from tugging the velcro straps when I put them on) and all the grips on the fingertips have fallen off. I reinforced the stitching and that has held up well. I will use these until they break though because they fit so well, and they're quick to put on because they use one velcro strap just like the Hillbilly Half Fingers. I can also fit a smartwatch with a standard strap over them to quickly access my GPS and apps. If only the quality was better they would have been perfect for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 6 hours ago, tihoa said: Here's a few comments on the gloves I've tried: Hillbilly Half Fingers - My favorite so far. It uses one large velcro strap so getting them on and off is super fast and you can use your fingers for accessing your phone, zippers, etc. They don't reach too far into the wrist/arm so it allows for a lot of movement and a normal jacket can go over them easily. They're also pretty cheap online. Hillbilly Full Fingers - Hate them. These use a 3 velcro strap system that's not convenient to put on or adjust. The glove fingers don't have much stretch so if they don't fit your hands perfectly you'll have awkward wiggle room on the tips of your fingers which makes it cumbersome to get keys out of your pocket, use your zippers, grab your wallet, etc. Flexmeter Wrist Guards - My 2nd most favorite. It's got double sided flex protection so they're the safest of the bunch. I can wear a thin pair of winter gloves under the wrist guards and they work perfectly in cold weather, they're super adjustable. But they take up a lot of your wrist/arm (they're long) so I find it hard to tuck them into a normal jacket arm hole, you'll have to use a jacket with a flexible cuff or zippered like motorcycle jackets. In warm/hot weather you won't have any of the jacket issues, but because the guards are still so long it may not work in combination with some of the elbow guards out there (they'll hit each other). You also can't fit a normal watch strap over them, if you got a smartwatch you'll have to use an oversized watch strap or somehow attach the unit to the guards via velcro or something. Flatland 3D E-Skate - I made this whole post about them! They still have quality issues: there is major pilling of the fabric on my fingertips after a month of use (most likely from tugging the velcro straps when I put them on) and all the grips on the fingertips have fallen off. I reinforced the stitching and that has held up well. I will use these until they break though because they fit so well, and they're quick to put on because they use one velcro strap just like the Hillbilly Half Fingers. I can also fit a smartwatch with a standard strap over them to quickly access my GPS and apps. If only the quality was better they would have been perfect for me. I certainly do hope the ones I ordered are not from the bad batch. But if they are, I'm very happy to hear they take their customer service seriously. They do sound like exactly what I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) If you see how they hold up by wearing them, I wonder what all that super stitching is going to do when you fall? Also, $60 for decent protective gloves is nothing. Check out some Dainese motorcycle gloves. You can easily pay +$200 for good ones. I think it's a good idea, but I don't want to buy them right now because I am not convinced of the quality. The "puck" slider for wrist protection is a proven system on motorcycle gloves (where for obvious reasons you can't block the wrist with a guard), but we EUC riders have no such constraints. Would be nice to see a glove incorporate all this. I haven't searched but maybe there are more e-skate glove manufacturers in the mean time? Edited February 25, 2019 by ir_fuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 So I got both the e-skate pro and the e-skate fingerless gloves today. They seem to be a good batch, as I noticed no weak points of visual faults neither while looking them over or while testing them. The fingerless gloves have no backhand plastic guard, which may or may not be a problem. The e-skate pro have a guard, but of course a rather short and narrow one. My first impression of the guard rail is that it is somewhat stiff-ish, a bit sharp at the arm end, and a bit too strict as for how far back the hand can extend. My guess would be that a slightly more padded or softer end would lessen the pressure on the radius-/ulna-bones in the arm in a fall. I'm not sure, I might well have set the standard for such things at the flexmeter levels. As for sizes, I chose size large as that corresponded to my measures, but I would recommend that if you're in between sizes go for the bigger size. Large was just barely big enough to fit me comfortably, and I cant use the thumb loops on the jacket and have the gloves on top of the sleeves - it was just too awkward at that size. Overall they seem very good, the only real letdown was the "knuckle armor" that is no such thing - it is just some rubber strips that probably means zip in a real impact. If I were in the R&D department of flatland 3d, I would design a e-skate pro plus with the following differences: A backhand overextension protection that is progressive in action (hello flexmeters), with a better padded slightly upturned arm-end that goes another inch or two higher up the arm. A thin D3O-padding for the heel of the hand, just under the gliding pads (hello flexmeters again), to better distribute impact forces and protect the small bones in the hand from fractures. The Knox SDS pads with metal reinforcements. With such a change the price point of the gloves would be a bargain, and the price could even be a bit higher without being painful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 Sorry for the person doing this, but I would like to see a few crashes first with these gloves. Impossible to judge the quality by just wearing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 27, 2019 Share Posted February 27, 2019 9 hours ago, ir_fuel said: Sorry for the person doing this, but I would like to see a few crashes first with these gloves. Impossible to judge the quality by just wearing them. I do NOT volunteer!!! But I do get a good vibe as far as safety go, at least in city riding conditions. I'd say that if there's any particular area where the design is not entirely up to snuff, it is probably the short length and over-stiffness of the backhand arming strip. Used them today, and for once I managed not to freeze my poor fingers off. I took a good look at the strip construction, and I think a dremel filing at just one or two places could probably lessen the risk of a radius fracture if gliding fails for some reason. What I mean is introducing a gentle curve at the top would mean a somewhat larger area would dissipate an impact, rather than most of it dissipating at the end of the strip. The strip construction is actually rather ingenious, but the material choices regrettably means the stopping point for back flex comes on in a rather abrupt fashion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Buy cheap buy twice. $60 is cheap for gloves. I would never think they’d be durable at that price point. Instead of buying from some cheapo company that just incorporates Knox technology but has cheap quality elsewhere why not actually buy a Knox glove with the patented scaphoid protection? i just bought these for warm weather riding as my Klim Adventure gloves are too hot with the Gore Tex windproof layer. https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/knox-orsa-leather-mk2-gloves I feel confident they’d hold up to multiple EUC crashes. Those flatland gloves are half the price but they look like they’d only last ONE crash. You’d be paying more in the end. Premium leather for durability with touchscreen control and the Knox scaphoid protection. Why cheap out on safety gear? I don’t wear wrist guards as they are too bulky and you really want to wear gloves to protect your fingers(so you’d have to wear gloves under wrist guards which is a pain in the ass to take off). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesq Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 On 2/27/2019 at 3:03 AM, ir_fuel said: Sorry for the person doing this, but I would like to see a few crashes first with these gloves. Impossible to judge the quality by just wearing them. I had my first crash with the pro gloves. My V8 shut off while going about 18-19 mph and the wheel dipped forwards causing me to tumble off the wheel. My hands hit the ground first and although my left wrist still has some residual pain, I definitely feel like the gloves helped protect me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 On 2/28/2019 at 1:07 AM, Darrell Wesh said: Buy cheap buy twice. $60 is cheap for gloves. I would never think they’d be durable at that price point. Instead of buying from some cheapo company that just incorporates Knox technology but has cheap quality elsewhere why not actually buy a Knox glove with the patented scaphoid protection? i just bought these for warm weather riding as my Klim Adventure gloves are too hot with the Gore Tex windproof layer. https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/knox-orsa-leather-mk2-gloves I feel confident they’d hold up to multiple EUC crashes. Those flatland gloves are half the price but they look like they’d only last ONE crash. You’d be paying more in the end. Premium leather for durability with touchscreen control and the Knox scaphoid protection. Why cheap out on safety gear? I don’t wear wrist guards as they are too bulky and you really want to wear gloves to protect your fingers(so you’d have to wear gloves under wrist guards which is a pain in the ass to take off). You definitely have a point on the Flatland3d quality issues (based on what I've read), and on it being worth paying a premium for good gear. The flatland3d's price would be fair, in my opinion, if the quality were up to standard. $60 is cheap...compared to motorcycle gloves. But it's not a fair comparison (entirely different leagues): motocycle gloves are designed to resists much tougher falls, at much higher speeds, and require much sturdier, heavy-duty and costly materials; the flanlands being 1/2 the price sounds reasonable considering the use cases and materials required (not needing to resist 70 mph asphalt friction). Supposing the quality didn't prove as faulty as many are reporting, of course... On the other hand, I'm not too sure I'd be entirely comfortable using only motorcycles gloves. I asked my partner, who's a physical therapist, and she was of the opinion that wrist plates are a must for unicycling. Because of the nature of the fall, the wrist isn't as likely to take as much of a hit in a motorcycle as on an EUC faceplant or spill. But more important is the issue is friction: in a motorcycle crash, you're likely going to fall at much higher speeds than on an EUC, meaning the momentum will tend to overpower the friction's "stopping force", which tends to get distributed more evenly along forearm, elbow, arm, shoulder, etc. On an EUC, it's much more likely for there to be a scenario where because of the speed, ground surface, fall angle, etc., you don't slide like you would on a motorcycle, which means the wrist could take a nasty hit. It's also worth noting that wrist plates would be beneficial in motorcycle gloves too, if it weren't for the fact they'd hinder wrist movement, which rules them out. But for EUC-riding, between wrist plates and no wrist plates, wrist plates is the safer option (as long as they're well designed, which might be questionable in this case, as pointed out by @Scatcat). Based on that, I'd rather spend $120 on two pairs of (one-fall/disposable) gloves with wrist plates than $140 on better quality motorcycle gloves without them. As to the Flatland cut-finger gloves, I'm not too sure I find them very useful, I think a decent wrist guard is a much better option. But as the Big Lebowski (sorry, the Dude) would say, "That's just, like, my opinion, man" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesq Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 My third pair of gloves also ripped at the exact same seam. Good news is that Flatland3d says that they are currently reinforcing the weak seam on their current batch and offered a full refund for the hassle. Therefore, I'd still recommend these gloves as they still offer the best protection in a package that is comfortable to wear and easy to put on and because the customer service is top notch and I feel confident that quality issues are taken seriously and are addressed promptly. I've worn these gloves in sub-freezing temperatures comfortably. I haven't worn them yet in hot weather, but I have not reason to believe that they would be any less comfortable than any alternative as these are the thinnest gloves I've seen with sliders and wrist plates. I'll update you guys once I get the reinforced gloves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jonesq said: My third pair of gloves also ripped at the exact same seam. Good news is that Flatland3d says that they are currently reinforcing the weak seam on their current batch and offered a full refund for the hassle. Therefore, I'd still recommend these gloves as they still offer the best protection in a package that is comfortable to wear and easy to put on and because the customer service is top notch and I feel confident that quality issues are taken seriously and are addressed promptly. I've worn these gloves in sub-freezing temperatures comfortably. I haven't worn them yet in hot weather, but I have not reason to believe that they would be any less comfortable than any alternative as these are the thinnest gloves I've seen with sliders and wrist plates. I'll update you guys once I get the reinforced gloves. These two are contradictions of each other. Don’t mislead people into thinking they’ll work for cold weather because they’re obviously designed for warm weather. I still can’t understand why you support the company when your third pair of gloves ripped and are blindly believing they’ll actually fix the problem when they already emailed back they don’t even know when they’ll fix the problem. Again, durability is highly questionable fixed seam or not. Just because they have the Knox technology DOES NOT make it Knox glove quality. Do yourself a favor and get an actual Knox glove, preferably in leather like the one I linked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, travsformation said: You definitely have a point on the Flatland3d quality issues (based on what I've read), and on it being worth paying a premium for good gear. The flatland3d's price would be fair, in my opinion, if the quality were up to standard. $60 is cheap...compared to motorcycle gloves. But it's not a fair comparison (entirely different leagues): motocycle gloves are designed to resists much tougher falls, at much higher speeds, and require much sturdier, heavy-duty and costly materials; the flanlands being 1/2 the price sounds reasonable considering the use cases and materials required (not needing to resist 70 mph asphalt friction). Supposing the quality didn't prove as faulty as many are reporting, of course... On the other hand, I'm not too sure I'd be entirely comfortable using only motorcycles gloves. I asked my partner, who's a physical therapist, and she was of the opinion that wrist plates are a must for unicycling. Because of the nature of the fall, the wrist isn't as likely to take as much of a hit in a motorcycle as on an EUC faceplant or spill. But more important is the issue is friction: in a motorcycle crash, you're likely going to fall at much higher speeds than on an EUC, meaning the momentum will tend to overpower the friction's "stopping force", which tends to get distributed more evenly along forearm, elbow, arm, shoulder, etc. On an EUC, it's much more likely for there to be a scenario where because of the speed, ground surface, fall angle, etc., you don't slide like you would on a motorcycle, which means the wrist could take a nasty hit. It's also worth noting that wrist plates would be beneficial in motorcycle gloves too, if it weren't for the fact they'd hinder wrist movement, which rules them out. But for EUC-riding, between wrist plates and no wrist plates, wrist plates is the safer option (as long as they're well designed, which might be questionable in this case, as pointed out by @Scatcat). Based on that, I'd rather spend $120 on two pairs of (one-fall/disposable) gloves with wrist plates than $140 on better quality motorcycle gloves without them Umm this is exactly why a motorcycle crash is MORE likely to break your wrist then an EUC fall. See the attached image. Knox designed this protection for HIGH speeds on a motorcycle. What you just explained is WHY that bones breaks. If the momentum overpowers the stopping force then you don’t stop and continue over your wrist which breaks that scaphoid bone. Like I said, buy cheap buy twice. Waiting to hear reports of the glove failing after the first crash, but doesn’t look like we’ll hear that because they fail at the seams before a crash can even take place. If you’re not willing to buy those big, bulky, cumbersome but bombproof wrist guards then expensive motorcycle gloves is what you have to get for the same or better protection. Edited March 1, 2019 by Darrell Wesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) On 2/5/2019 at 4:28 PM, Jonesq said: I'm also impressed with the way they are handling this issue. While I'd prefer to receive the updated model, I get that they are a business and probably need to deplete their current stock first before starting on the new batch. Based on their customer service, I'd still recommend these gloves as they are way more comfortable than your standard wrist guard. There is no ETA for the new production run currently according to the customer service rep. This was their response when I asked them when the new production run was projected to begin: "Unfortunately there's just too many factors at play to be able to project that yet. I couldn't even narrow it down to weeks or months for you at this point." Doubtful that the issue will be fixed considering the unbelievable claim that they don’t even know a year ETA and their quoted so called “ small percentage” of defects despite 90% of this forum having the problem. We’re not even esk8 who need to hold remotes so why is this glove being recommended? I’m not being a hater here but really people move on this item will continue to fail prematurely from numerous accounts but if you like waiting on warranty claims go right ahead. I think we are enamored by the Knox Scaphoid technology but not seeing the actual picture that the quality elsewhere isn’t up to par. Edited March 1, 2019 by Darrell Wesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth Brooks Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 @Darrell Wesh I agree with you. I would rather get the Knox gloves up front and be done with it which is what I will likely do when I do buy a pair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said: @Darrell Wesh I agree with you. I would rather get the Knox gloves up front and be done with it which is what I will likely do when I do buy a pair. The quality of the actual Knox gloves with their patented technology is phenomenal. Just from looking at my leather Knox gloves vs the images and videos of the flatlands glove I can see Knox has much more beefed up scaphoid sliders that can take multiple crashes. They even use BOA lacing system to cinch up the gloves for a custom tight fit which they didn’t have to do, could have just used Velcro like everyone else. Knox is known for being one of if not the best motorcycle glove maker in the industry. I feel safer then if I were wearing wrist guards alone(but still not as safe as the overkill/way too frustrating to take off glove + wrist guard combo) Edited March 1, 2019 by Darrell Wesh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesq Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said: Doubtful that the issue will be fixed considering the unbelievable claim that they don’t even know a year ETA and their quoted so called “ small percentage” of defects despite 90% of this forum having the problem. We’re not even esk8 who need to hold remotes so why is this glove being recommended? I’m not being a hater here but really people move on this item will continue to fail prematurely from numerous accounts but if you like waiting on warranty claims go right ahead. I think we are enamored by the Knox Scaphoid technology but not seeing the actual picture that the quality elsewhere isn’t up to par. My recommendation of the glove is based on my personal experience that the gloves protected my scaphoid after a hard fall. I've broken my scaphoid from a biking accident so I'm familiar with the amount of force necessary to break the scaphoid. My last fall of my V8 was at a similar speed and my hands braced the impact in the same way but I was able to walk away from the accident without any serious injury to my hands. I agree that there are definitely gloves out there that provide more protection. But I don't think there are any gloves out there that are as easy to put on, take off, and as comfortable as these gloves that provide the same amount of protection. In essence, if you like to travel light, I think these gloves provide adequate protection, all things considered. Durability is an issue. The weak seam has completely dethreaded on all my gloves. However, the separation of the fabric along that single point has not lead to any other seams ripping YET. As someone who bought these gloves, I am still happy with my purchase as they've sent me 3 pairs already and have offered me a full refund. As I stated earlier, these gloves protected my hands from a fairly seriously fall and I am not concerned about the durability issues affecting the protection that the glove provides. The past wrist guards I had made it extremely difficult for me to use a phone. Even if I don't use a phone while riding, I sometimes do at a stop. I like that I can keep my gloves on and operate my phone. TLDR: I recommend the gloves based on the customer service and because the gloves provide the bare minimum of protection I'm comfortable with while being by far the most comfortable and convenient option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: Umm this is exactly why a motorcycle crash is MORE likely to break your wrist then an EUC fall. See the attached image. Knox designed this protection for HIGH speeds on a motorcycle. What you just explained is WHY that bones breaks. If the momentum overpowers the stopping force then you don’t stop and continue over your wrist which breaks that scaphoid bone. I don't think you understood me (or I didn't explain myself properly). I'm not arguing with the graphic you posted—we both agree that sliding is the top priority to prevent a wrist injury. My point was that Knox's protections, as you pointed out, are designed for high speeds. Therefore, in a motorcycle crash, they'd do their job well: you'd slide, and wrist fracture averted. The faster you're going, the more you slide...at lower speeds the Knox protections might not slide as well; there's a much higher risk of the protection "sticking" to the ground. In which case it seems like a sensible option to have the wrist plate as backup if, for whatever reason (speed, type of terrain), one fails to slide. 5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: Like I said, buy cheap buy twice. If you’re not willing to buy those big, bulky, cumbersome but bombproof wrist guards then expensive motorcycle gloves is what you have to get for the same or better protection. My main concern is protection, not price. I was just pointing out that I (personally) wouldn't spend my money on expensive motorcycle gloves (designed for motorcycle crashes), when I'm unsure they'll offer the protection I'm after. My ideal would be some form of cross-over involving well-built motorcycle gloves with wrist plates incorporated. If the Flatlands were better quality (regardless of price), they'd be the closest thing out there. The idea is good, and they're designed with e-skate riders in mind (which is close enough to EUC-riding conditions), it's just too bad there are so many quality issues. On the other hand, they are the only product of their sort on the market at the moment (correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe they'll learn from their mistake and improve the next version, or even better, other manufacturers will see there's a potential market and we'll eventually have more options: half-finger gloves with wrist plates, full-finger gloves with more heavily reinforced finger protection (winter and summer options), different slider technologies, reinforced ulnar area (side of the hand), etc. I had my hopes up when I first read about the Flatlands...I was looking for a wrist-guard + glove combo (for winter riding) that was more convenient than my current setup (gloves under my wrist guards, which is a royal pain in the ass). Looks like the EUC/e-sk8 glove market is still in its infancy...Guess I'll have to wait (and stick to my current setup for the time being). Might replace my thin MTB gloves with thinnish, summer motorcycle gloves (whatever I can find that can fit under my wrist guards) for increased finger/knuckle protection though Edited March 1, 2019 by travsformation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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