Tips for speeds greater than 40 kph/ 20 mph

[FlyboyEUC]

Now that EUCs are getting faster and more reliable, I'm wondering if anyone has tips for "staying safe" at higher speeds. Regardless of safety gear, what skills or concepts should people be aware of at those speeds?

Should you stand further back to help slow down if need be, maintain speed during a turn, etc....? Looking for pointers/tips.

[Gaz Bon]

Experience and Practice lots at lower speeds  and experiment as yr speed increases

I would imagine terrain and riding techniques and the wheel yr riding 

When I 1st got my MSX stacked it big Time within 4kms of 1st ride 

Too Fast and not enought experience with the wheel and hard braking it and paniced and jumped off 

No injuries, wheel got scared for life 

But now it's a joy 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

5 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Now that EUCs are getting faster and more reliable, I'm wondering if anyone has tips for "staying safe" at higher speeds. Regardless of safety gear, what skills or concepts should people be aware of at those speeds?

Should you stand further back to help slow down if need be, maintain speed during a turn, etc....? Looking for pointers/tips.

1) Slalom while braking hard to brake faster and safer. 

2) Crouch down when going faster (partial squat) and even more when you see a bump to absorb the shock. Don’t be that guy standing straight up and tall, going 30mph. Look at chooch tech videos. Do not squeeze the wheel as this can cause wobbles. 

[Smoother]

40kph is about 24.8mph.  Just sayin'.  Maybe you should edit your title.

[US69]

13 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Now that EUCs are getting faster and more reliable, I'm wondering if anyone has tips for "staying safe" at higher speeds. Regardless of safety gear, what skills or concepts should people be aware of at those speeds?

Should you stand further back to help slow down if need be, maintain speed during a turn, etc....? Looking for pointers/tips.

Most important in my view:

When before you where only used to slower Speeds like say 20-30kmh maximum...then take your time when going faster!

Like a newbie this Needs Training, a lot of longtime riders experience "death wobbles" when going higher than lets say 38-42kmh.

As like in the early days your calves must get used to the new Forces that the Wheel brings over.

So i would take it step by step to go faster and only going even more faster when you mastered a certain Speed and feel comfortable doing so.

Nothing is worse than being nervous, unrelaxes and uncomfortable when riding 40kmh plus on a one Wheel :-)

 

Stand wise i would not Change anything ….just the awareness Level should grow exponential with the Speed. Look far Forward for what may come in your way….

[LanghamP]

There's a lot of weird things that happen at higher speeds, mostly due to wheels being gyroscopically balanced like bicycles and motorcycles. To be specific, the wheel you stand on behaves like the front wheel of a motorcycle.

At higher speeds turning a wheel into a turn becomes quite difficult if you depend just on body lean. Therefore learning to counter steer into turns is vital; I'd put that up there with having bent knees. Unfortunately, due to a wheel not having a trailing wheel to continually push against means you will almost always describe a sine like wave. Often you will need to zig zag your wheel through the longer turns. Shorter turns you can often just flop the wheel into the turn in one motion, and then the natural inclination of the wheel to stand up will get you through the rest of the turn.

Again, you do not need any body leaning to make any wheel turn at higher speeds. Don't be afraid of continously and even dramatically counter steering your wheel to keep it in a turn.

To me, being able to forcefully counter steer a wheel at higher speeds is the most important skill a rider can have, as it allows you to place your wheel with pin-point accuracy even at pedal-scrapping speeds.

[Girth Brooks]

17 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Again, you do not need any body leaning to make any wheel turn at higher speeds. 

 

*except if you're on  Z10 then 100% lean your body weight in the direction you're going at speed.

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

There's a lot of weird things that happen at higher speeds, mostly due to wheels being gyroscopically balanced like bicycles and motorcycles. To be specific, the wheel you stand on behaves like the front wheel of a motorcycle.

At higher speeds turning a wheel into a turn becomes quite difficult if you depend just on body lean. Therefore learning to counter steer into turns is vital; I'd put that up there with having bent knees. Unfortunately, due to a wheel not having a trailing wheel to continually push against means you will almost always describe a sine like wave. Often you will need to zig zag your wheel through the longer turns. Shorter turns you can often just flop the wheel into the turn in one motion, and then the natural inclination of the wheel to stand up will get you through the rest of the turn.

Again, you do not need any body leaning to make any wheel turn at higher speeds. Don't be afraid of continously and even dramatically counter steering your wheel to keep it in a turn.

To me, being able to forcefully counter steer a wheel at higher speeds is the most important skill a rider can have, as it allows you to place your wheel with pin-point accuracy even at pedal-scrapping speeds.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this.  Have you found any EUC video that shows what you are describing? I have noticed that my wheel (KS16s with 2.5" mod) wants to "Z10" a bit, i.e stand up in high speed corners, and I want to learn a way to eliminate or reduce this. I think you have the answer, but I can't visualize it., especially the "zig zag" bit.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, US69 said:

awareness Level should grow exponential with the Speed.

This is the key. No matter how much detail we share about riding posture or other tips, the key thing is that the reaction and stopping distances (and amount of damage) grow exponentially. 40 is not two times 20.

- Start slowly! Practice steering and emergency braking at each new speed.

- Prepare for anything. Someone can come behind a corner, a bump might be bigger than you thought, etc. So keep your knees bent and don’t stand so far forward that you can’t emergency brake with confidence.

- Always be ready to stop at the visible distance of the road.

-  Don’t try to be brave. If you get afraid, it’s ok, that means you still have a brain, so slow down a bit.

- Ride sensibly. Don’t blast past bicycles or pedestrians. Don’t annoy people.

[Meelosh123]

• Lower your wind resistance by changing your stance.  You'll figure it out, be careful of wobbles when changing your center of gravity.
• Don't go fast in areas you don't know really well.  I guess this may not apply to all riders...but personally, I'm extra cautious in unknown areas, and don't have to ride in unknown areas if I don't want to.  Blind spots, cracks, potholes, hidden curbs...these are all things that may ruin your day going slow, and ruin your year/life going fast.
• I like a higher tire pressure for higher speed cruising, and lower tire pressure for lazy lollygagging.  Need to find a good balance.

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Girth Brooks said:

*except if you're on  Z10 then 100% lean your body weight in the direction you're going at speed.

Well, you can flop the Z10 into the turn but like the Titanic it is always going straight.

(I've never ridden the Z10)

Fixing the Z10 to make it turn if you don't like that handling should be very straightforward; the rim is too wide for the tire.

This "problem" is extremely well understood in motorcycle circles for the past 30 years to the point of nauseum. To be clear, making any wheel always want to stand up makes it a safer wheel! So this might not be a problem for you. In motorcycle parlance this is called tire profile, and are oddly enough called "aggressive" to "neutral". Years ago Metzler put out an interesting article on how they built tires with various tire radius profiles.

Again, referring back to Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist...

With a wider tire in proportion to the rim, you get a wheel more likely to turn in and stay in. Make the tire narrower in proportion to the rim and you get a more stable tire that stays upright.

Here's a specific example that confirms this to be true across all wheels.

Ever noticed that as your tire gets worn down the center the wheel gets more stable? Then you replace the tire and suddenly you feel you're riding on an unstable point or pyramid? That's because the center point, the radius, gets worn down, making your tire flatter and more stable. This is also the reason why inflating your tire "pop" out the profile, and makes your tire narrower and hence less stable.

Putting a wider tire on a wheel makes it less stable if the profile gets pointier. In practice this is often not true because the wider tire has a shallower profile due to the lower air pressure caused by the greater air volume of the tire over the original.

That's why you often see oddball front tire sizes such as 110/70 vs 120/60 vs 130/55. They try to keep the air volume the same so only the profile is affected. Bigger air volume means less tire pressure.

Tires, when spinning, always try to lay as flat as they can. Why? Dunno. I would guess the greatest surface area provides the most drag.

You can probably still zig zag the Z10 through a long turn with some monster counter steering and no body lean (God help you should you try to brake while attempting to lean the wheel over even more).

[Girth Brooks]

@LanghamP there isn't a thing wrong with a Z10 in my opinion and mine turns great. There is no "problem" I just know it'll be a bad day for whoever takes a high speed turn on one without leaning their body weight in the direction they want to go. 

[LanghamP]

5 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

@LanghamP there isn't a thing wrong with a Z10 in my opinion and mine turns great. There is no "problem" I just know it'll be a bad day for whoever takes a high speed turn on one without leaning their body weight in the direction they want to go. 

You can demonstrate and confirm by yourself that you do not need to lean off your Z10 in any way in order for it to turn, at least for the initial turn-in. Being able to keep the wheel leaned over may be more difficult.

Here is what you do.

--Clamp wheel firmly between your legs and ensure you are not body leaning.

--Run up to a reasonable speed of say 15 mph.

-While upright then using only your hips twist the wheel strongly and suddenly to your right.

-You and your wheel, as a unit with no hanging off, will now strongly lean left.

This works with any gyroscopically balanced wheel regardless of size and design.

[Girth Brooks]

@LanghamP at low speed this you are mentioning works flawlessly. I use it. It will not work in a high speed turn. Any experienced Z rider will agree with me.

[Girth Brooks]

Can any Z10 owner on this forum control their wheel with your legs clamped to it?? I can't because when I do it is not very controllable at speed. I have crashed mine as a result of clamping the wheel. I highly advise against holding the Z10 with your legs. I could be wrong though.

[Rama Douglas]

7 hours ago, US69 said:

Most important in my view:

When before you where only used to slower Speeds like say 20-30kmh maximum...then take your time when going faster!

Like a newbie this Needs Training, a lot of longtime riders experience "death wobbles" when going higher than lets say 38-42kmh.

As like in the early days your calves must get used to the new Forces that the Wheel brings over.

So i would take it step by step to go faster and only going even more faster when you mastered a certain Speed and feel comfortable doing so.

Nothing is worse than being nervous, unrelaxes and uncomfortable when riding 40kmh plus on a one Wheel :-)

 

Stand wise i would not Change anything ….just the awareness Level should grow exponential with the Speed. Look far Forward for what may come in your way….

I wholeheartedly agree. I was one of those that kind of went crazy with all that new power under me. Had a death wobble a couple weeks ago at around 22mph. I had already been up to 25+, but when this happened at the end of a long 40+ mile ride, my legs were jello...Luckily my gear kept me from injury...

[LanghamP]

3 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

@LanghamP at low speed this you are mentioning works flawlessly. I use it. It will not work in a high speed turn. Any experienced Z rider will agree with me.

Begging your pardon, your statement is not true.

Here is a physics explanation on counter steering.

In every case of gyroscopically balanced vehicles, both what I've personally ridden and what I've observed, the above holds true at all speeds. With no exceptions. If you ride a wheel then it has to behave this way.

I suggested the clamp wheel method simply to ensure there was no body lean or hanging off. In practice I doubt clamping or not clamping makes any difference because your legs are nowhere near to being as stiff as motorcycle or bicycle front forks.

[Meelosh123]

44 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Well, you can flop the Z10 into the turn but like the Titanic it is always going straight.

(I've never ridden the Z10)

...

Ah

[Girth Brooks]

@LanghamP I own the wheel & I have over 200 miles on it. I also own a Gotway now. Neither wheel can be ridden the same. The Z10 stays upright at speed. My Monster will easily lean with me into a turn at speed. Ride one when given the chance and apply your theory. You will see.

[LanghamP]

4 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

@LanghamP I own the wheel & I have over 200 miles on it. I also own a Gotway now. Neither wheel can be ridden the same. The Z10 stays upright at speed. My Monster will easily lean with me into a turn at speed. Ride one when given the chance and apply your theory. You will see.

You're confusing instantaneous lean with turning.

Did you watch the video?

[Meelosh123]

Just now, LanghamP said:

You're confusing instantaneous lean with turning.

Did you watch the video?

Have you done this at speed on a unicycle?  The video makes perfect sense, but it's on a motorcycle where you're using your hands/shoulders and all the leverage that handlebars provide, vs torquing your hips back, while you're already leaning and off balance, to catch yourself.  So have you actually done this on a heavy wide unicycle at high speed?

[Rama Douglas]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

  Don’t try to be brave. If you get afraid, it’s ok, that means you still have a brain, so slow down a bit.

True that! Since my death wobble, I've been pretty tentative getting back to speed. Fastest yet was 26, and it's scary! 😬 Not in a hurry to get it up to top speed any more, that's for sure! 

[LanghamP]

2 minutes ago, Meelosh123 said:

Have you done this at speed on a unicycle?  The video makes perfect sense, but it's on a motorcycle where you're using your hands/shoulders and all the leverage that handlebars provide, vs torquing your hips back, while you're already leaning and off balance, to catch yourself.  So have you actually done this on a heavy wide unicycle at high speed?

The front wheel behavior is exactly the same between my BMW k1200r and my MSuper v3s. There is no difference between expected behavior and observed behavior.

Where you might be confused is where you sit. This video, with the legs used to steer similar to the EUC, might help you.

In any case the physics to turn any EUC and any bike can and is exactly the same. There's no weird surprises particular to these various vehicles.

[US69]

3 hours ago, Smoother said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around this.  Have you found any EUC video that shows what you are describing? I have noticed that my wheel (KS16s with 2.5" mod) wants to "Z10" a bit, i.e stand up in high speed corners, and I want to learn a way to eliminate or reduce this. I think you have the answer, but I can't visualize it., especially the "zig zag" bit.

Believe me...what you found as “standing up a bit” or resisting your movement on the 16s 2,5......is in NO way comparable to the Z10 drive characteristics...The z10 just dont want to turn at all (speaking about faster than 15kmh, on slower speeds its no problem).

The “wheeling mass” and wide tire just dont allow the z10 to lean into any curves. Some secrive this phenomenon as “exciting”...i would sort it in the category of “awkward”...as after getting used to the Z10 you have to readjust all time when you get back on a “normal” wheel.

My MSX with 3 inch wide tire ...even this has only about 5% of this characteristics....so it seams to be not just the wide tyre, but also the general playtogether of tire/wheel/motor..that makes the Z10 so “special”.....

[US69]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

You're confusing instantaneous lean with turning.

Did you watch the video?

The thing what makes the z10 so ridiculous to turn on higher speeds is the wheel mass and the included extremly wide tire/rim and motor. I had it for 15days..and can compare to all other KS/GW wheels on market and also even to a Monster.Z10 is pretty much unmovable when turning faster.  Seeing the videos of the spanish guy, Robert?, he countersteers that by leaning very much over the wheel...like on a motorbike.