BScootP Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Hey there, guys. Nice to meetchya. Name's Brandon, from Houston, TX, and I'm an addict. (aaaand scene.) No, for real. To now I've been lurking/reading through some of the threads and have fully enjoyed the learning and the laughs. I now know Marty has 95% funded the EUC movement. How many do you own, Marty? Ummm, inaugural post here. I had a thought (and an iPhone image from a Jul17 visit to Glacier National Park (East), because it's too lovely and transportive NOT) to share. Ahem... I've owned the SWGlide3 and the KS18XL for a bit over a month now and, since I ride the G3 more as my downtown last mile commuter, any time I've taken my 18XL for a spin it's required a long break-in for me to feel like I'm in that long, air bladder suspension-y RRover again... oh, but when I'm there it's definitely buttery smoove 'n' comfy. Tonight (breakthru) it dawned on me it isn't until I've moved my center of gravity up in the pedals that I feel I'm at home again (have I used enough metaphor?). Like, from relatively center (G3, magmod V10 pedals) to toes-hangin-off (18XL magmod pedals) - my assumption being due to the increase in power/weight/algorithm/calibration, not so much as pedal/wheel size since the distance from center is the same... but what do I know?Anyhoo, it is thanks to THIS dawning that I now have a new skill in quickly adjusting btw the two. Ahem again... My question to you guys: Is there a thread on this topic already out there under another name that I was unable to find? Am I alone or is this a thing? Am I onto the birth of the idea that I could adjust my calibrations to more closely mimic one another? I think I may be. I'd like to read about others' experience in "comfort zones" and the differences they've noticed between brands/wheels. Would be great to have references in the event I expand one day. Would be NOT-great to find out I posted this in the wrong place. I look forward to your thoughtses...es. Adieu. Oh, and the photo is of a descent from Stoney Indian Pass into Glenn's Lake. ...de la deuxième partie du adieu... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScootP Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 ...and I've just read the rule about hosting images on Imgur. NOTED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Hi. That's a nice picture 6 hours ago, BScootP said: Ahem again... My question to you guys: Is there a thread on this topic already out there under another name that I was unable to find? I don't think so (stance was certainly discussed... somewhere). But for a reason. There's only one rule regarding stance: be comfortable. Then you ride well, with minimum foot fatigue, and good control. There's kind of two components to this. Stand on the pedals so when you are standing still and upright (and relaxed just like you'd be on the ground, looking forward, not down), the wheel is neutral and doesn't drift forwards or backwards due to an imbalance in overall weight distribution. This is mostly relevant for learning (so you're not starting on the wrong foot, so to speak, which just makes it harder). Other than that, whatever feels good, makes you stand relaxed (as opposed to grabbing the wheel with your legs e.g.), and gives you the best control over the wheel is the right thing to do. You don't even have to look at your feet, just step on and adjust until it feels right. That's the correct stance. People will often have an asymmetric stance, that's completely normal. Often one foot is further outward (and often turned more) than the other. In fact, such an asymmetric stance gives you better control. So as long as your feet don't slip off the pedals, don't worry about perceived "strange" or different stances. Half of the sole hanging off the pedal? No problem! What works, works. That's the only thing that matters. Stand relaxed and comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScootP Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 Hi, MMM! And thank you. Granted, I only just came to the comfort zone theory for myself yesterday. Interestingly enough, I believe what you’ve just described is what I naturally subscribed to from the beginning, though since my ride time on the 2 wheels is heavily in favor of the G3, I notice for myself the 18XL isn’t nearly as get-on-and-go, allowing for the fact that it is much heavier, of course. Perhaps this latest realization will help me into my natural comfort zone, and in time I may see it that way again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRK Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 6:38 PM, BScootP said: (G3, magmod V10 pedals) How do you like the v10 pedals on the g3? Thinking of doing this myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 Well, in my opinion all wheels, regardless of size, fundamentally behave the same, and this is because they all are gyroscopically stabilized unicycles with their major controls (the footpads) in about the same place (roughly two inches below the axle). The big problem, and it is a problem, is that most EUCs require precise placement of your feet due to the small footpads. @meepmeepmayer mentions an asymmetrical stance as being perfectly normal, and while I agree this is normal I disagree this is optimal. The asymmetrical stance is there so you can bash down with one foot to go forward, and bash down on the other to brake. Give a rider wide and long footpads and I'd wager most riders will be almost perfectly symetrical. Humans are pretty even when they walk down the street. There's a lot of handling problems associated with small footpads. If you're overhanging the front then you cannot push down the front without falling ala whoops to close to the edge of the diving board. Too far back, which is almost required, and then your wheel has no stability-inducing trail. That's like trying to push a shopping cart with the wheels set backwards. Therefore, fix the overhanging toes problem first, and then see if that doesn't cure 90% of your handling problems and discomfort. Most other things are, unfortunately, work-arounds for the too-small footpads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScootP Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 11 hours ago, IRK said: How do you like the v10 pedals on the g3? Thinking of doing this myself. Made a huge comfort difference for me, and the switch to the rubber surface rather than grip tape solved an issue I previously had wearing business shoes with a leather sole during weekday morning commutes. The bigger pedals don't have the white foam near the hinge to add minimal suspension/hold them up when stored, so I would recommend the magnet modification as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsiang Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 55 minutes ago, LanghamP said: @meepmeepmayer mentions an asymmetrical stance as being perfectly normal, and while I agree this is normal I disagree this is optimal. The asymmetrical stance is there so you can bash down with one foot to go forward, and bash down on the other to brake. Give a rider wide and long footpads and I'd wager most riders will be almost perfectly symetrical. Humans are pretty even when they walk down the street. I am not sure if I agree with the symetrical stance as the norm; yes we might look symetrical, but we all have a preferred lead hand/ leg and even eye (there are right handed people who are left legged also) I am still new to EUCs but from years of rollerblading and martial art experiences, asymetrical stance is usually more stable than parellel stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScootP Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 50 minutes ago, LanghamP said: Well, in my opinion all wheels, regardless of size, fundamentally behave the same, and this is because they all are gyroscopically stabilized unicycles with their major controls (the footpads) in about the same place (roughly two inches below the axle). Over the course of the last few days, I believe I've come around to seeing things similar to you guys. I may have been attempting to over-science my understanding of one wheel vs. the other... largely unnecessary in this case, what with the canyon-sized differences between the two. I've intentionally ridden both since my initial post - mindfully taking similar approaches in riding style - and the differences now feel minimized outside the sheer weight difference. Now these polar vortex things happening lately have brought about several 15-25 mph windy days, reminding me that any set of riding challenges can change at a moment's notice. That said, while I do feel there was a difference in foot position btw the two wheels prior to my original post, the difference very well could be attributed to external forces. Thanks MUCH for your replies, all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScootP Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 18 minutes ago, Hsiang said: ...from years of rollerblading and martial art experiences, asymetrical stance is usually more stable than parellel stance. Interesting observation. Thanks, Hsiang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 38 minutes ago, Hsiang said: I am not sure if I agree with the symetrical stance as the norm; yes we might look symetrical, but we all have a preferred lead hand/ leg and even eye (there are right handed people who are left legged also) I am still new to EUCs but from years of rollerblading and martial art experiences, asymetrical stance is usually more stable than parellel stance. Often there are good reasons to be asymmetrical. For rollerblades and ice skating, your default stance should always be one foot in front of the other because you can catch yourself front to back. If you put your feet parallel to each other and you hit say a pebble, then you're quickly putting one foot way in front or hitting the ground. With martial arts, obviously no one wants to make themselves a bigger target with a wide open center, and fencing is a notoriously narrow stance (with parallel lines!), but you'll also notice that sports like football and basketball require a completely open stance. Personally, I think if you favor one side over the other then that's a good indication you need to practice your weak side. Wheels are not only symmetrical left and right but also front to back, and I think having a perfectly symetrical stance helps eliminate a lot of weird little wobbles and hiccups you get when the wheel hits something just a bit off-center. You can confirm an overlapping stance puts off-center forces on your wheel by simply riding it over rough terrain like a grass field; even being slightly overlapping makes the top of the wheel move side to side a lot. A symmetrical stance greatly reduces that silliness. If you greatly exaggerate your overlapping stance then you'll see your wheel just wag itself a tremendous amount. It occurred to me while writing the above that the ultimate overlapping stance would be the OneWheel. OneWheels must be tremendously hard to ride in their hardest settings. Unless the rider can perfectly balanced himself front to back then every little jolt would put a lot of force into one footpad but not the other. Perhaps OneWheels suffer from "overcontrol" while we EUC riders suffer from "under control" due to overhanging toes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRK Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 12 hours ago, BScootP said: Made a huge comfort difference for me, and the switch to the rubber surface rather than grip tape solved an issue I previously had wearing business shoes with a leather sole during weekday morning commutes. The bigger pedals don't have the white foam near the hinge to add minimal suspension/hold them up when stored, so I would recommend the magnet modification as well. Gotcha. Thanks for the response! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 13 hours ago, LanghamP said: The asymmetrical stance is there so you can bash down with one foot to go forward, and bash down on the other to brake. That's definitely true. I general, I think you're right. The asymmetrical stance might very well just be your body's mitigation strategy, and go away with big enough pedals. Only one way to find out. Or maybe the new KS big pedal owners can already tell? I hope the new Nikola/Gotway pedals will be BIG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 I can’t imagine riding without my DIY ”bigfoot” pedals. With originals I have to position my feet carefully, as they hang over the sides as well. With the DIY pedal plates I can experiment with a little offset positions, for reducing feet fatigue during long rides if nothing else. My legs/hips/feet are asymmetrical themselves, so I often find myself compensating for that. Not possible with a EU46 shoe on the original pedals. I haven’t found an offset stance to cause vibration or wobbles. Some say it is the opposite, and atleast in theory I agree; a vibration requires equal forces applied in turn from opposite sides. It is common for new riders to stand too far back. An 18” wheel requires more lean, so the neutral position to keep a steady speed is even more forward than on smaller wheels. But be careful, an emergency braking requires more lean as well. If I’d stand on the most comfortable position for acceleration and cruising on the MSX, I could fall off during an emergency braking. I have briefly experienced heels-only braking, and the feeling is a bit nasty. Not much control left for the rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsiang Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 23 hours ago, LanghamP said: Wheels are not only symmetrical left and right but also front to back, and I think having a perfectly symetrical stance helps eliminate a lot of weird little wobbles and hiccups you get when the wheel hits something just a bit off-center. Yes however since we're traveling straight forward, any potential forces, either bumps or fall will usually excert itself parellel to the direction we're traveling. So if you are in a parellel stance while standing and someone were to push you straight back. you'll have less stability then if you had one feet back? Interesting observation about presenting a smaller target in martial art; however being "rooted" as having a solid stance is not only defensive, it is also the only way to put power behind your punch and kicks. I think good martial artist and boxers mitigate the larger target by shifting their feet constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I think @houseofjob can answer this foot debate. Definetly a BIG no from me for perfectly parallel feet and I have both INMOTION xl pedal and kingsong xl pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 9:38 PM, BScootP said: Hey there, guys. Nice to meetchya. Name's Brandon, from Houston, TX, and I'm an addict. (aaaand scene.) Welcome! On 1/24/2019 at 9:38 PM, BScootP said: Tonight (breakthru) it dawned on me it isn't until I've moved my center of gravity up in the pedals that I feel I'm at home again (have I used enough metaphor?). Like, from relatively center (G3, magmod V10 pedals) to toes-hangin-off (18XL magmod pedals) - my assumption being due to the increase in power/weight/algorithm/calibration, not so much as pedal/wheel size since the distance from center is the same... but what do I know?Anyhoo, it is thanks to THIS dawning that I now have a new skill in quickly adjusting btw the two. Ahem again... My question to you guys: Is there a thread on this topic already out there under another name that I was unable to find? Am I alone or is this a thing? Am I onto the birth of the idea that I could adjust my calibrations to more closely mimic one another? I think I may be. I'd like to read about others' experience in "comfort zones" and the differences they've noticed between brands/wheels. Would be great to have references in the event I expand one day. Would be NOT-great to find out I posted this in the wrong place. I look forward to your thoughtses...es. Adieu. If I'm not mistaken, sounds like you've found out about moving your heels closer to the center of the pedals, something riders can do to remedy foot pain at times. This will work somewhat, since foot pain is caused by prolonged contraction of the foot arch muscles, and moving the heels up can release this tension, as the main 2 pedal stressors / balancers, the forefoot (accelerator) and the heel, are no longer in a positional tug-of-war, pinching at said arch..... .... but the more your toes, then forefoot hang off the front of the pedal, the more nuanced control you lose when maneuvering IMHO, as your toes will no longer have a surface to leverage against for this nuanced control. I myself do the opposite: my forefoot and toes are comfortably flush on the front of the pedals, while my heels will, depending on the pedal dimensions, hang off the back edges of the pedals when need be. Combined with alternating heel lifts on a constant turning/slaloming -for-acceleration motion, I hardly have foot pain any more, unless I am on a new and unfamiliar wheel, and/or are riding over very sketch terrain. On 1/28/2019 at 12:58 PM, Hsiang said: I am not sure if I agree with the symetrical stance as the norm; yes we might look symetrical, but we all have a preferred lead hand/ leg and even eye (there are right handed people who are left legged also) I am still new to EUCs but from years of rollerblading and martial art experiences, asymetrical stance is usually more stable than parellel stance. On 1/28/2019 at 2:05 PM, LanghamP said: Often there are good reasons to be asymmetrical. For rollerblades and ice skating, your default stance should always be one foot in front of the other because you can catch yourself front to back. If you put your feet parallel to each other and you hit say a pebble, then you're quickly putting one foot way in front or hitting the ground. With martial arts, obviously no one wants to make themselves a bigger target with a wide open center, and fencing is a notoriously narrow stance (with parallel lines!), but you'll also notice that sports like football and basketball require a completely open stance. Personally, I think if you favor one side over the other then that's a good indication you need to practice your weak side. Wheels are not only symmetrical left and right but also front to back, and I think having a perfectly symetrical stance helps eliminate a lot of weird little wobbles and hiccups you get when the wheel hits something just a bit off-center. You can confirm an overlapping stance puts off-center forces on your wheel by simply riding it over rough terrain like a grass field; even being slightly overlapping makes the top of the wheel move side to side a lot. A symmetrical stance greatly reduces that silliness. If you greatly exaggerate your overlapping stance then you'll see your wheel just wag itself a tremendous amount. I'm afraid I might have been one of the instigators of the asymmetrical stance awhile back It was meant more as a temporary remedy: for newer riders to learn how to favor a dominant side net weight balance (left or right), which will eliminate speed wobbles, as speed wobbles form when equal left-and-right foot/pedal weight balance creates alternating and opposing angular momentum forces. The ultimate weakness of the asymmetrical stance is that it creates a dominant side and a blind side, very much like board sports. After much experimentation (and subconscious hacking of my years of ski technique), I found you could have it both ways! While my stance / feet placement on the wheel is now symmetrical; my body motion, pivoting, weight distribution, and overall leveraging of the wheel is asymmetrical. To explain: I can be standing on my wheel with both feet mirrored and centered on the pedal, but if I tilt the wheel left and downwards of upright, as if making a left turn, my right foot and pedal (ie. outer turn foot/leg) will be slightly forward relative to the overall forward motion vector plane, thus creating asymmetry. To accentuate this asymmetry, I will lock and stick weight into this outer turn right leg at the heel, so that my right foot toes are slightly angling up, all while my body is slightly forward of wheel center and away from said leg/foot, as if I'm reaching back with this leg to push off, as you might do with the trailing ground push leg in skateboarding. The other inner turn left leg is bent, with the heel lifting slightly up, body slightly over it, ready to receive back the weight emphasis and straighten out, when the turn direction is switched. Despite all this contortion, my feet placement is still mirrored and symmetrical to the wheel's frame of reference, but my motion and body leveraging relative to the forward direction plane is asymmetrical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 On 1/29/2019 at 1:20 PM, Hsiang said: Yes however since we're traveling straight forward, any potential forces, either bumps or fall will usually excert itself parellel to the direction we're traveling. So if you are in a parellel stance while standing and someone were to push you straight back. you'll have less stability then if you had one feet back? Interesting observation about presenting a smaller target in martial art; however being "rooted" as having a solid stance is not only defensive, it is also the only way to put power behind your punch and kicks. I think good martial artist and boxers mitigate the larger target by shifting their feet constantly. I not sure that I follow the martial arts analogy. Martial arts is a philosophy and varying systems have even more varying approaches. You spoke of the relationship between power and being planted in a stance. As a capoerista I believe that power comes comes from motion because everything is constantly in motion (no pun intended). In capoeira there is no basic stance, but there are three primary movements: Ginga (swing), balança (sway), and troca (switch/shift); swing, sway, switch. How do I see all of that relating to a wheel? When mounted upon a wheel the wheel is moving and we move with it. It is extremely difficult to be completely still standing on the platforms of a completely still EUC and maintain ones balance. Navigating the wheel requires a rhythm; a combination of motions that enables balance. On a wheel we are constantly moving; Ginga, balança, and troca or we fall off of it. Even if my feet are parallel on the platform I am constantly moving them. Balance, in part,comes from the interaction between feet; not the position. Some people ride with one foot advanced on the pedal and one behind, some people ride with both feet parallel. In each case the interaction between feet (and of course,the rest of the body as well) adjusts to allow control of the device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BScootP Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 14 hours ago, houseofjob said: Welcome! ... Despite all this contortion, my feet placement is still mirrored and symmetrical to the wheel's frame of reference, but my motion and body leveraging relative to the forward direction plane is asymmetrical. Thanks, J! Clearly, a more nuanced explanation beyond my foot placement was required here. Makes sense, and thanks for your ruminations. No doubt in the long run my thoughts on the surface will amount to little more than "mount and go!", but these varied approaches to EUC physics are helping me make sense of the varied advice between individuals and wheels. #itgetsbetter (i may have used this incorrectly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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