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Barrett Roberts

So I’ve stopped riding everything but my Z10

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6 minutes ago, ED209 said:

Sounds like your wheel is trying to kill you... I have heard it is the same under full on acceleration. 

So some update. Reduced the air pressure, played around with the ride assisted mode too.. and it seems like it seemed better now.. could not reproduce the issue... for now.

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41 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

@Afeez Kay is your assisted braking turned on in the Ninebot app?

I have now switched it off and reduce the psi considerably. seems to have helped.. so far.

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@Afeez Kay I know @Marty Backe and @houseofjob like 30psi and higher tire pressure on their Z, but I don't seem to have the same results with mine. My ride is much less sketchy at 25-28psi than if I go higher to 30 or above. I get speed & brake wobbles with high psi. I know some have mentioned the assisted braking giving that feeling you mentioned, but I have better luck with mine turned on. Maybe the Z is just going to be set up differently for each rider??? Who knows?

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

From my experience climbing very steep hills even on the production Z10, it still struggles under extreme load.

I haven't experienced what you are describing because I basically never hard brake. Knowing the loads and what can go wrong, I generally don't hard accelerate or brake. But I'm not surprised to hear about any weirdness that comes from extreme loads on the Z10.

Reducing the psi and switch off the brake assisted option seems to have ‘fixed’ the issue.

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On 2/8/2019 at 5:25 PM, Marty Backe said:

Did you get the box that has the rubber bumpers and grip tape for the pedals?

The primary language in the manual seems to be English. Since you didn't buy it through a Western distributor, maybe those wheels don't get the manual. It does have Chinese (I think) in the back half though. Hmmm.

Here's a PDF of the manual: Dropbox Link

Yes i have grip tape and rubber pads in mine , thx for the pdf i must of missed this post due to sorting my charger thx marty:)

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3 hours ago, Afeez Kay said:

@houseofjob and @Marty Backe does your z10 shudder on hard braking sometimes? Like it’s trying to grab then loses grip then regains it.

I nearly came off as I lost my footing. Earlier z10 seems to be more realiable than ones made after August. I am on firmware 1.0.4

This is a clip from track day video from today ,a dog ran out and had to brake hard, and yes it did wobble😟 , the insta360 is good for different views, I'm going to practice hard braking. What's the reason it would wobble? It's like the wheel can't handle braking hard like it doesn't like braking going down hill😕

 

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I am surprised you managed to stay on the Wheel to be honest. You are very brave :) I am sure your heart was in your mouth! 😂

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@stephen mine does that at times under hard braking as well. Seems to be easier to wobble with higher tire pressure but it will do that regardless under hard braking so much so that I have gotten used to it enough that it doesn't scare me. Just typing that though now scares me..  LOLOL

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18 minutes ago, ED209 said:

I am surprised you managed to stay on the Wheel to be honest. You are very brave :) I am sure your heart was in your mouth! 😂

I've had it on my msx but not as severe, it was my first wobble on the z10 so i might try replicate it a few times so i know what's happening , there is one thing about the Z10 is that it always  wants to stay upright and will wiggle just cause it's trying to get straight I've got used to that now it's just how it is and doesn't bother me, i kind of like that it wants too stay upright at least i know where it's getting back to lol , only on my second day so I've got some stuff to work out 😊

 

16 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

mine does that at times under hard braking as well. Seems to be easier to wobble with higher tire pressure

I'm still playing with the pressures , I'm liking the just under 30psi so far though. It's smoother:rolleyes:

Edited by stephen
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43 minutes ago, stephen said:

I've had it on my msx but not as severe, it was my first wobble on the z10 so i might try replicate it a few times so i know what's happening , there is one thing about the Z10 is that it always  wants to stay upright and will wiggle just cause it's trying to get straight I've got used to that now it's just how it is and doesn't bother me, i kind of like that it wants too stay upright at least i know where it's getting back to lol , only on my second day so I've got some stuff to work out 😊

 

I'm still playing with the pressures , I'm liking the just under 30psi so far though. It's smoother:rolleyes:

So much smoother. I am able to go faster with more confidence. I think I reduced mine to lower 20s psi.. 

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1 hour ago, stephen said:

This is a clip from track day video from today ,a dog ran out and had to brake hard, and yes it did wobble😟 , the insta360 is good for different views, I'm going to practice hard braking. What's the reason it would wobble? It's like the wheel can't handle braking hard like it doesn't like braking going down hill😕

 

It’s definetly your technique and not the wheel. When you start braking you straighten your legs too much and go on your heels which immediately unbalances you and transfers to the wheel causing wobbles. It is very unstable for a human to be on their heels, try to brake but keep your foot flat on the pedals; shift your center of gravity back don’t just dig down with your heels. The Z is susceptible to these brake wobbles as is the MSX because of the wider tires when braking conventionally by rocking back on the heels.

You will likely get used to it eventually and wobble much less with time however. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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2 hours ago, stephen said:

This is a clip from track day video from today ,a dog ran out and had to brake hard, and yes it did wobble😟 , the insta360 is good for different views, I'm going to practice hard braking. What's the reason it would wobble? It's like the wheel can't handle braking hard like it doesn't like braking going down hill😕

 

First of I don't own nor have yet ridden a Z10, but...

In my accident where I crashed my V8, it all started by a oval curve turn where my wheel lost traction on loose grave on the tarmac. As it grained traction it was on a different vector than my movement. This caused it to wobble violently. Then trying to catch the wobble and breaking at the same time I hit a fist size sharp concrete rock and instant punctured. This was the day I were practicing emergency breaking.

Now the Z10 is not center balanced if I understand it right. So I think it would wobble unless you got trained muscle memory to counter that. I can get mild wobbles too on my KS18L if I break hard and have tired legs. 

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The Z10 is going to wobble, follow grooves in the road, fight you when you turn and steer you off course when you encounter an obstacle at an odd angle.  I’ve simply learned to bend my knees and throw my weight in the direction I want to go to compensate for its behavior.  I’ve also found that keeping the tire PSI somewhere between 25 and 30 will make the Z10 more compliant in most situations.

Let’s face it, though - dogs can be unpredictable and generally aren’t too crazy about EUCs.  I exercise extra caution around them and slow way down well before I pass someone walking a dog for my own safety and theirs.

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1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

 I personally have no clue though how all of you are braking with both knees having even the slightest of bends to both of them simultaneously, especially near max speeds. 

 

My tried-and-true anti-wobble braking technique involves a.) offset/diagonal hips, and b.) driving my weight into a dominant & locked braking leg.

When I'm trying to brake dramatically from near max speeds, I will lock my dominant braking leg, while I drop back that corresponding hip (other hip and leg are very slightly more forward in comparison, which make the overall hips and torso planes face towards the locked leg side, instead of being perfectly perpendicular with the wheel's forward motion vector). Then, I will drive my weight into this locked braking leg from that corresponding hip.

The other counterbalancing leg can be bent or locked as well, but it's important to focus more weight onto the dominant & locked braking leg with that dominant-side hip.

   I noticed Chooch doing this a year ago in one of his videos. I thought it looked awkward at the time. After three months of learning I caught myself doing the same thing. I have continued to use it because it works very well. @houseofjob explains it much better than I can. It seem to me that you can not only regulate the braking better, it stops the wobble while dampening the bumps. 

  An easy way to learn this technique is to place one foot slightly forward and the other slightly back. Use the forward foot for acceleration and the back foot for braking. After a while you will find yourself doing what houseofjob describes naturally. 

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2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

This point times 1,000%!

PSI (pounds per square inch) is not an absolute measure!!! 

It's dependent on all force variables between the rider and the tire air cavity (tire compound elasticity, tire thickness, total rider load) in which the inner air pressure needs to counteract in order to keep a certain desired tire shape resistance when under load.

This is why it mystifies me that people toss around PSI's like T-shirt sizes *smh. Unless we have the same Exact conditions (wheel, tire setup, rider load) PSI will always vary!!

 

Sorry, I fundamentally don't believe in hard braking, as there is seldom a situation you can't combine S-curves and spreading out braking force.

But yes, all the Z10 production firmwares to date have exhibited fairly weak-ish braking, in favor of the increased forward performance we saw when Ninebot updated the Z from the previous beta pre-prod firmwares, which, though not Gotway strong, did exhibit better braking than the current Z firmware.

I believe hope that Ninebot is only taking a temporary break from Z firmware revisions, and will eventually roll out better braking to match the forward performance.  This would make sense, as we know that "harder", or better, sharper acceleration And braking carry the engineering issues of higher current spikes to deal with when tweaking the control board programming, and the fact that the Z is 14S, thus dealing with higher current values in general, don't help this cause I think.

 

As @Darrell Wesh says (and is the common refrain here on the forums) it's not the wheel, it's the technique!

I personally have no clue though how all of you are braking with both knees having even the slightest of bends to both of them simultaneously, especially near max speeds. 

 

My tried-and-true anti-wobble braking technique involves a.) offset/diagonal hips, and b.) driving my weight into a dominant & locked braking leg.

When I'm trying to brake dramatically from near max speeds, I will lock my dominant braking leg, while I drop back that corresponding hip (other hip and leg are very slightly more forward in comparison, which make the overall hips and torso planes face towards the locked leg side, instead of being perfectly perpendicular with the wheel's forward motion vector). Then, I will drive my weight into this locked braking leg from that corresponding hip.

The other counterbalancing leg can be bent or locked as well, but it's important to focus more weight onto the dominant & locked braking leg with that dominant-side hip.

I will then alternate this motion, switching locked dominant leg sides, combined with S-curves if I need a very dramatic speed reduction.

This technique works IMHO because it stabilizes the wheel forces by dampening the alternating motion created when wobbling by keeping the braking force consistent to one side. Also, applying force to a locked leg / "lever" will transmit braking force (or any force in general) much better than a bent leg.  Actually, in general, even for forward acceleration, I alternate locked leg to locked leg, driving force into that leg from my corresponding hip. When done quickly, this allows you to get much better acceleration than a simple and single prolonged lean; what I term "pumping the acceleration".

I use a 3 pt stance start to accelerate as fast as possible. Same start as a 40yard dash from a football player. LOL (not joking) except my hand doesn’t touch the ground. I have one arm back and the opposite foot already on the wheel; on green light I throw that back arm forward as hard as I can.

Some people might say this is a skater push start but it’s not: the swing arm contribution is what’s missing from that start and is much more important and powerful. 

The tricky part is getting my trailing foot on just right on a wheel that starts moving at 10-15mph instantaneously from the momentum. Once I have both feet on I’ve completely avoided the beginning “turbo lag” of the 18” wheels and can accelerate to high speeds very quickly. 

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11 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I use a 3 pt stance start to accelerate as fast as possible. Same start as a 40yard dash from a football player. LOL (not joking) except my hand doesn’t touch the ground. I have one arm back and the opposite foot already on the wheel; on green light I throw that back arm forward as hard as I can.

Some people might say this is a skater push start but it’s not: the swing arm contribution is what’s missing from that start and is much more important and powerful. 

The tricky part is getting my trailing foot on just right on a wheel that starts moving at 10-15mph instantaneously from the momentum. Once I have both feet on I’ve completely avoided the beginning “turbo lag” of the 18” wheels and can accelerate to high speeds very quickly. 

Yup, exactly.

Duh, I forgot to mention arms in my explanation, as they always they move and drive the hips, the ultimate delivery of power for any sport.

 

So glad you mention the 18" lag phenomenon!, as I too, never feel it any more. I'll pump the starting acceleration, going from locked-leg-to-locked-leg; almost feels like I'm hard pedaling a bicycle, or how I imagine short-distance speed skaters push side-to-side to accelerate on the ice.

I would just roll with a mis-placed trail foot, experiment. I used to get concerned on initial foot placement, but once you start messing with driving the wheel on heels and toes, straight or pivoted sideways, it starts to matter less where and how well your feet are placed on the wheel, and you start to be able to move the wheel with any part of your foot on any part of the pedal, and can also quickly pivot back into the optimal foot placement as well (throwing in some minor one-legging to boot!).

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13 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Yup, exactly.

Duh, I forgot to mention arms in my explanation, as they always they move and drive the hips, the ultimate delivery of power for any sport.

 

So glad you mention the 18" lag phenomenon!, as I too, never feel it any more. I'll pump the starting acceleration, going from locked-leg-to-locked-leg; almost feels like I'm hard pedaling a bicycle, or how I imagine short-distance speed skaters push side-to-side to accelerate on the ice.

I would just roll with a mis-placed trail foot, experiment. I used to get concerned on initial foot placement, but once you start messing with driving the wheel on heels and toes, straight or pivoted sideways, it starts to matter less where and how well your feet are placed on the wheel, and you start to be able to move the wheel with any part of your foot on any part of the pedal, and can also quickly pivot back into the optimal foot placement as well (throwing in some minor one-legging to boot!).

I need to see a video of this!! It would be interesting to have a short acceleration race  with all these varying techniques 😄 of course we’d need a weight vest or something to even everyone’s weight to the same. 

For foot placement I can ride from anywhere on the pedals it just happens that I usually place my foot way too far forward on the pedals from my hard start and that slows me down since I need/want to reposition before accelerating more since I don’t want to have it fall off from a bump at high speeds. 

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8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's always important to qualify tire pressure recommendations by telling us your weight. As an example, 20-psi might be perfect for a guy that weighs 140-pounds but not so good for a 200-pound person.

10.5 stones / 67 kg what ever that is in American weight pounds.. we don’t normally use pounds to measure weight in the UK 🇬🇧 

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1 minute ago, Smoother said:

I'd take up flying again

You can fly:clap3:

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3 minutes ago, stephen said:

You can fly:clap3:

Yep, Before every face plant. I even get an in flight movie (which is usually my life flashing before my eyes)

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1 minute ago, Smoother said:

Yep, Before every face plant. I even get an in flight movie (which is usually my life flashing before my eyes)

Pmsl :rolleyes: be careful lol

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