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The Tyre (Tire) Thread

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On 9/9/2019 at 1:20 AM, mrelwood said:

Alas, it seems that the SR244 is not available as a 2.50-14.

Do you notice any change in carving behaviour when the contact point moves from one row of knobs to the next?

Per behaviour question:  Carving with the stock tire was sluggish compared to the e+ though that wheel is slow.  With the 2.75-14 SR244, carving was worse though tolerated for knobby off-road benefit... top-speed also acted like I weighed 400 lbs (kicked me back allot more)... and that SR244 didn't fit (cut off the outter knobs as well as shaved the case where I could... lack of clearance was a hazzard in more ways than one too).

So I today I installed the 2.50-14 standard knobby.  Its also labeled 87-5718, GS-45F, and Mfg PN: T10299.  I've had 1 ride on it in snowy/icy conditions with a about 20 psi in it.  Id say its what I wanted to start with.  In the pic its the one on the right.  Stock is in the middle and the SR244 is on the left. 

The 2.75-14 SR244 was 20.5" diameter inflated (measured).  The SR244 was too big, effected the command-input so it felt like it lost torque most notably at very low and very high speeds).  Stock was 19" diameter... and the The 2.50-14 is about 18.75" (I just measured that), so it seems to handle better.  Its much more manouverable than it was, even better than stock.  As for squishy tire, it was soft enough with 20 psi.  So all in all I'm happy with it! 

Here's the ebay (over 10 available, $33 delivered in the US):  https://www.ebay.com/itm/IRC-M2E-Front-Tire-Sold-Each-2-50-14-Mark-II/233398274183?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

20191218_150647.jpg

mounted.png

Edited by Elliott Reitz
+Mfg PN, +pic

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1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Per behaviour question:  Carving with the stock tire was sluggish compared to the e+ though that wheel is slow.  With the 2.75-14 SR244, carving was worse though tolerated for knobby off-road benefit... top-speed also acted like I weighed 400 lbs (kicked me back allot more)... and that SR244 didn't fit (cut off the outter knobs as well as shaved the case where I could... lack of clearance was a hazzard in more ways than one too).

The 2.75-14 SR244 was 20.5" diameter inflated (measured).  The SR244 was too big, effected the command-input so it felt like it lost torque most notably at very low and very high speeds). 

Earlier you said:  "Because someone once mentioned a tilt-back issue with a knobbie I used this ride to evaluate if there were any speed impacts.  There weren't."

Now you're saying that the size is too big after shaving the knobs and case? It sounds like you put some miles on it, did it get worse? 

You also mention that you are experiencing "kick back", I'm assuming "tilt back" at higher speeds. Were you able to try to center the wheel per @mrelwood's advice? Just wondering because I have the SR244 installed now.

I'm also considering other options, so I just wanted to understand your experience and motivation for switching.

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2 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

Earlier you said:  "Because someone once mentioned a tilt-back issue with a knobbie I used this ride to evaluate if there were any speed impacts.  There weren't."

Now you're saying that the size is too big after shaving the knobs and case? It sounds like you put some miles on it, did it get worse? 

You also mention that you are experiencing "kick back", I'm assuming "tilt back" at higher speeds. Were you able to try to center the wheel per @mrelwood's advice? Just wondering because I have the SR244 installed now.

I'm also considering other options, so I just wanted to understand your experience and motivation for switching.

So it wasn't "tilt back" but rather "level-your-###" at whatever speed balances what you put in... with less leverage on a bigger wheel. So no speed vs tire impact but rather command'abilty impact that's most noticeable at the lowest and highest speeds.  Same situations where I always wished I had bigger pedals, especially for my toes.  I still have pedal mod concepts in my head, but today they seemed unimportant. ;)

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Took another ride the 2.50-14 standard knobby, also labeled 87-5718, GS-45F, and Mfg PN: T10299.  Mixed wet/snow roads with top speed about 25 mph. 

The performance is impressive!  When I selected the SR244 I was looking for an on/off dual use tire... and yet it does have the mild vibration of a knobby on paivement.  Whats surprising is that the 2.50-14 is the same vibration wise.  But its maneuverability is better than stock and way better than the 244... not as nimble as the e+ but for a 50 lbs big fast wheel, its a huge improvement most notable at less than 5 mph, and over 15 mph.  Over 25 I've not yet ridden it though I doubt its maneuverability/stability would be as troublesome as the lacking command-leverage on the SR244. 

Edited by Elliott Reitz
spelling

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But its maneuverability is better than stock and way better than the 244...

Which manoeuvreability features do you consider to be ”better”? Does the 244 require too much tilt to turn, or is it harder to twist-turn?

Edited by mrelwood

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On 12/20/2019 at 6:05 AM, mrelwood said:

 

Which manoeuvreability features do you consider to be ”better”? Does the 244 require too much tilt to turn, or is it harder to twist-turn?

Great question as I was just on it tonight... rode about 5 miles with my dog... top speed was 49 mph (hmmm that musta been when I broke through the ice and jumped off). Anyway...

The 244 required more peddle-leverage than my body-weight could easily deliver.

The 2.5-15 standard knobby gives me the leverage/acceleration I expect. 

So whats less than perfect? Well tonight I noticed that very slow speed sharp turning (not accelerating) was "less authority" than the other bigger tires.  Like when I'm using wheel-lean at slow speed (vs the body-twist-redirection) it takes a deeper peddle-lean (with body straight up) than it did with the SR244 for the same slow-turn. 

So perspective = bigger tire is easier to slow/lean-turn than a smaller one, while smaller diameter tire = acceleration authority advantage.  Which is best?  Well the smaller diameter tire seems to be better suited to higher speeds.  At low speeds, its got traction and the authority of accel/decel.  But the bigger tires seem to turn easier at slow-constant speeds.

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3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

The 244 required more peddle-leverage than my body-weight could easily deliver.

The 2.5-15 standard knobby gives me the leverage/acceleration I expect.

Yes, this is an unavoidable difference between large and small (outer) diameter tires. But I wouldn’t have thought the difference to be that big between a 2.5” and a 2.75” tire.

3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

it takes a deeper peddle-lean (with body straight up) than it did with the SR244 for the same slow-turn.

This is generally the difference between a narrow and a wide tire. But it is a bit more complicated than that, because the knobby tires seem to behave quite differently than standard ones.

This is the only negative feature for me on the CST C-186. I can easily pendulum slowly in a small space with my 2.5” 16S (especially with the H-5167 tire), while switching from 18x3.0 H-666 to the knobby CST C-186 on my MSX made it quite difficult, despite the knobby being a lot easier to turn by twisting.

Since I don’t yet understand why the knobbies are harder to turn at small speeds, I want to gather more opinions on different kinds of knobbies. All the knobbies are quite different (straight rows, rows wide apart, altering knobbies far apart, random knobbies close...), and they must behave very differently in this regard.

So thank you for the few additional data points!

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More notables from most recent snow-ride with the 2.5-14" knobby...

1. Pedal-slippage is something ya get used to... and its a primary motive to speed selection.  That is if I hit the slope part too slow it increases the slide-off-front probability... Too fast...just bounce/slide off on bumps. 

- my most recent crash (Friday):  A guy had just opened his door 1/2 way while occupying a double-wide parking spot... I yelled out  "passing by you"... his response was to shove his door the rest of the way open.  There was enough space to swerve while making the 2 dogs follow.. but I had lost much speed... then at the curb there was a a 6" snow/ice pile... instead of climbing the curb, my feet went of the front and I was standing... but then the wheel climbed itself up the curb and its seat poked me in my a## off my feet onto the seat... then flop onto my back while the wheel flopped out in front of me.  I said absolutely nothing to that Mercedes driver because if I did I woulda shouted at him... so I rode around the parking lot a few more times (waiting for the food-order).

2. The slow-tilt-turn-radius-athourity - when it surprised me I found my last twist correction attempt left me facing near backward to my direction... funny thing about that was I could let my inside foot slip (snow-slippery already) to further increase the wheel lean angle.  So it felt awkward the 1st couple of times... but hmmm that works... starting to remind myself of watching Bob Hanna MX race long ago... he jumped triples, hill-cliffs, etc... his bike bounced while he found anyway possible to hang onto it by the bars with the throttle open... funny that truly works on jet skis too. 

On 12/22/2019 at 1:33 AM, mrelwood said:

Yes, this is an unavoidable difference between large and small (outer) diameter tires. But I wouldn’t have thought the difference to be that big between a 2.5” and a 2.75” tire.

Enough difference that my primary rides (7 to 16 mph with 1 or 2 dogs) I don't feel like I really really need longer peddles right now. 

On 12/22/2019 at 1:33 AM, mrelwood said:

Since I don’t yet understand why the knobbies are harder to turn at small speeds, I want to gather more opinions on different kinds of knobbies. All the knobbies are quite different (straight rows, rows wide apart, altering knobbies far apart, random knobbies close...), and they must behave very differently in this regard.

So thank you for the few additional data points!

You're welcome... I find this stuff interesting from an engineering perspective.  From that perspective I do speculate smaller diameter should turn sharper for the same lean at the same speed.  Though yea, knobby patterns could make a smaller-flatter tire more like a taller-rounder tire when deep-leaned. 

 

 

 

Edited by Elliott Reitz
+quote & reply, spelling

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Tonight (riding under 15 mph with my dog), I payed attention to the effects f my tire only being 20 lbs (at least that's what it was when I filled it, mabye only 10 to 15 now).  Anyway, it barely cushines anything and thus needs more air to avoid bending the rim hitting potholes over 20... .  Also, I think that low pressure makes the wheel have to "lift" over the outer knobs to get into deep turns.  Hopefully more air will improve that as well as the slow-speed twist action.  As it is, my traction is so strong (on soft grass/mud) that its really hard to twist turn it right now.

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22 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Tonight (riding under 15 mph with my dog), I payed attention to the effects f my tire only being 20 lbs (at least that's what it was when I filled it, mabye only 10 to 15 now).  Anyway, it barely cushines anything and thus needs more air to avoid bending the rim hitting potholes over 20... .  Also, I think that low pressure makes the wheel have to "lift" over the outer knobs to get into deep turns.  Hopefully more air will improve that as well as the slow-speed twist action.  As it is, my traction is so strong (on soft grass/mud) that its really hard to twist turn it right now.

So tonight I added air b4 my ride. Wow it was near 0... inflated to 30psi.  B4 filling I was surprised there was basically no pressure in the tire.  That rode much better, especially for low-speed steering while it still feels soft vs speed-bump-jumps.  Just now checked it and it only had 15psi.  So I think I must have put a hole in the tube during the tire-swap.  Sucks cause the other tube requires a 90 deg chuck for inflation.  Just inflated it to 40psi.  Will see if its flat next ride. 

As it is, my air-leak-issue is interesting to this thread because my slow-speed turning issues were from the unde-rinflation.  With adequate inflation the smaller radius seems to steer quicker than bigger tires.

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5 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

As it is, my air-leak-issue is interesting to this thread because my slow-speed turning issues were from the unde-rinflation.  With adequate inflation the smaller radius seems to steer quicker than bigger tires.

If you've had this air leak issue for a while, then maybe it influenced the others tire reviews? 

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On 12/28/2019 at 1:34 AM, ZenRyder said:

If you've had this air leak issue for a while, then maybe it influenced the others tire reviews? 

I just installed this smaller diameter knobby a few rids back.  So I'm not yet sure if its leaking, got that impression but b4 most recent rides topped off, pressure guage hard to be sure... 

I'm certain(sorry) that initial under inflation did cause my impression and description of its turning problem. Last couple rides I checked/topped-off air pressure to 35 or so... rides great with that!  So now what I can say is the smaller tier with 35 psi has the pot-hole/bump sponginess of the previous fatter tier had with 15 psi.  And wow its performance is way better.  As for my desire for longer pedals, that's still a reality on grass where there's super-soft sections... mud.  In mud/snow/soft, the authority for power to keep speed is observable & noteworthy.  Thus I have some clutch springs and ideas for sprung pedal over-plates that will be 6" longer. 

Edited by Elliott Reitz

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Posted (edited)

Hi !

Thank you for the review of the tires, really appreciate them. After seeing them i want to ask you, how do you replace the inner tube? I haven been able to find inner tubes with the angled valve to fit in the MSX, all i found was straight valved tubes...

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by dmethvin
Duplicated photos in quote

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After seeing them i want to ask you, how do you replace the inner tube?

Here’s how I do it, for the MSX only:

1) Wheel lying on it’s left side, unscrew all screws holding the shell halves together. Optional: For screws that are completely loosened but didn’t come out from the screw cavity with the screwdriver, put a piece of tape to cover the cavity.

2) Holding the shell halves tightly together, flip the wheel to it’s right side. (Catch any falling screws.)

3) Remove the left pedal and side panel. Note the correct places for 2 or 3 different kinds of screws.

4) Detach the handle from either of the trolley arms, 2 screws.

5) Remove the 6 large pedal bracket bolts.

6) Remove all cables from the clamp at the top of the wheel, and feed them a bit to the cable cavity.

7) Flip the left side of the shell open like a book, while making sure that the cables never get tight.

8) Replace the inner tube like on a bicycle.

(*) Use a lot of lubrication at the tire bead (dish washing liquid for example). (*) Do NOT use sharp or pointed tools (like a screwdriver) to remove the outer tube! Use proper tire irons. I use plastic bicycle tire irons with a steel core, since motorcycle irons are too long and sharp, and they scratch the rim.

Quote

I haven been able to find inner tubes with the angled valve to fit in the MSX, all i found was straight valved tubes...

Ebay, Amazon, Aliexpress, EUC shops, ...

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Anyone know a seller in Europe of:

14 x 2.5 angled valve inner tube

for MCM5? Thanks

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18 hours ago, RoCan said:

Anyone know a seller in Europe of:

14 x 2.5 angled valve inner tube

for MCM5? Thanks

 

On 1/5/2020 at 11:33 PM, mrelwood said:

...

8) Replace the inner tube like on a bicycle.

(*) Use a lot of lubrication at the tire bead (dish washing liquid for example). (*) Do NOT use sharp or pointed tools (like a screwdriver) to remove the outer tube! Use proper tire irons. I use plastic bicycle tire irons with a steel core, since motorcycle irons are too long and sharp, and they scratch the rim.

Ebay, Amazon, Aliexpress, EUC shops, ...

I've changed my tire 2x now.  I'm still using the original intertube because the one that came with the 2nd tire is a straight valve.  I've not seen angled valve intertubes for sale... so if someone finds one, please share the source/link. 

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I’ve seen lots of angled/bent valve inner tubes in Ali and Ebay in the past. The issue is though that the valve is still quite high. And instead of pointing forwards like on the included tubes, it tends to point directly to the side. It may be hard to fit on a 16” EUC. 18” ones shouldn’t be a problem though.

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Posted (edited)

@mrelwood have you ever heard of 18"  FrictionTROOP Tires. It is a BMX 18"x2.3" tire and some places sell this as a "winter" tire option. I thought of maybe picking up one for my KS18L. I found a almost local dealer selling it for about 22€ so price isn't that bad, plus 6€ for shipping.

They are offered in different colour scheme or black.  

fiction-18-qh.jpg

It should apparently offer good grip but I guess it wears down fast. But since it is for showy and ice season it matters less. I fugured to maybe add studs. 

But before hitting that purchase button, I figured why not ask the Tire God MrElwood first 😉

Edited by Unventor

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

But before hitting that purchase button, I figured why not ask the Tire God MrElwood first 😉

Tire God... oh my god! And in caps no less. :lol:

Unfortunately God has not heard of that brand before. Being a bit on the narrow side it would’ve slipped my radar as well. The tread pattern looks very functional to me though, so if you feel that you wouldn’t be bothered by the width, I say go for it! As long as it’s reasonably priced of course.

Good grip doesn’t at all necessarily mean that it would wear down faster. Seems the rubber compounds (silica content perhaps) vary enough to make predictions of the wearability very hard.

Edited by mrelwood

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@mrelwood I saw it here first, at my KS16X dealer:

https://eunicycles.eu/en/tires/114-18-inch-winter-tire-fiction.html

But then I found it cheaper and more local here (Swedish site) 

https://www.skatepro.se/374-31307.htm

I guess it isn't that huge a difference between standard 18"x2.5" to 18"x2.3" might ever be easier to catch balance as slimmer tire often are easier to turn. 

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9 hours ago, Unventor said:

But then I found it cheaper and more local here (Swedish site) ... https://www.skatepro.se/374-31307.htm

I guess it isn't that huge a difference between standard 18"x2.5" to 18"x2.3" might ever be easier to catch balance as slimmer tire often are easier to turn. 

My impression of the tread pattern is rain, not snow/ice. 

My impression of the 2.3" is that it will result in a smaller diameter (eg:  the 18" may be more like 17.5").  If so, that will give your wheel a much more torque'ey feel.  You'll really appreciate that!  (from having tried MSX stock at 19", an SR244 at 20.5", and now using a (2.5-14")  18.75" dia. knobby).  When summer gets here I think I will keep the knobby, or maybe replace it with one without the studs that I plan on adding to the one that's on it now. 

Edited by Elliott Reitz
" mark

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On 1/9/2020 at 6:21 PM, Unventor said:

@mrelwood I saw it here first, at my KS16X dealer:

https://eunicycles.eu/en/tires/114-18-inch-winter-tire-fiction.html

But then I found it cheaper and more local here (Swedish site) 

https://www.skatepro.se/374-31307.htm

I guess it isn't that huge a difference between standard 18"x2.5" to 18"x2.3" might ever be easier to catch balance as slimmer tire often are easier to turn. 

I've searched for winter tyres and have now tried 3 different tyres on my 18XL. The first was this BMX tyre you linked, or at least it has the same tread, but I didn't even try that. To thin and soft, not at all suited for EUC's. The tyres eunicycles.eu has might be different than the one I got, but I doubt it since it has the exact same thread. The second tyre I tried was a motorbike cross tire that I had to shave in order to fit the wheel. It was just awful to ride on any other surface than mud or soft forest trails. Then I tried a 2.125 tyre from aliexpress, similar to the one on the old KS18 model, and this had a thick enough sole to use these kind of studs: https://www.best-grip.se/product/bestgrip-1000. I chose the 2.125 for more agile trail riding, and it worked, but the thick sole of the tyre took away the feel of the surface and in high speed turns on tarmac I got the sickening feeling of a slide as tyre shifted sideways, which was a bit unpleasant. In October I read that the forecast for the winter would be very mild, so I bought a new original tyre:) Next winter I might go for the 2.5 version of the aliexpress tyre and the screw in studs from best grip.

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@Espen R thank you for your input. It seems we are not look to get any snow/ice yet which is very odd in my town. It is the warmest recorded in the time official messure in 130 years.

Edited by Unventor

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10 hours ago, Unventor said:

@Espen R thank you for your input. It seems we are not look to get any snow/ice yet which is very odd in my town. It is the warmest recorded in the time official messure in 130 years.

Yes, it's a weird winter. I'm about 200 km north of you and it's the same here. As a EUC rider I'm glad I can ride every day through the winter, but as a human being I'm a bit worried. I read that if there is a positive or negative spin on a wind current in the Atlantic, the meteorologists can determine if we get a mild or cold winter in Scandinavia, but now it seems that every “normal” weather phenomenon is dialed up to 11. If they forecast a wet summer, I’m attaching floating elements to the wheel and shovels on the tire;)   

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