KS18XL strange noise

[travsformation]

Hi,

Quick technical question here addressed to other 18XL owners ( @Marty Backe, @Lutalo, @The Fat Unicyclist, @ED209, @Yanex87 and...who am I forgetting?)

Will hopefully write a proper post on my first impressions on the XL this weekend, but have a quick question about something that I'm not too sure whether it's normal or not. First day of riding, no issues. Second day, a dog ran out in front of me (was doing about 30 km/h), I swerved, and the wheel started the wobble-dance of death; I was able to slow down a fair bit while trying to control it (to somewhere between running and jogging speed; far from faceplant), but ultimately, I realized either I bailed, or it was going to end up with a washout, so I bailed. The  wheel kept on going without me for a few meters, turning towards the right, then hit the curb (with only the tire) at an angle, bounced and landed on its side. Ride home was uneventful.

Went out for a ride today and felt something was off, like the wheel was working against me, trying to stay horizontally upright when I leaned. First I attributed it to having just installed the XL pedals, but after a while, I started to feel that the wheel was constantly leaning to the right, always digging into my right calf and making turns to the left feel difficult and uneasy. I started to worry I'd bent the rim or damaged the axle, but found it unlikely with KS's reputation for build quality and the fact it didn't take that bad a hit. Then I remembered the KS app has horizontal calibration, so I came home, reinstalled the KS app, stood the wheel up straight, did the horizontal calibration and changed from "learner mode" (which I guess is activated by default) to "expert mode".

It seemed to fix the issue. Then I noticed a noise that sounded like a slight mechanical grinding or scraping. This occurs primarily at low speeds and when braking. I know KS motors have a reputation for being loud (and damn, is this thing loud compared to my V8), with that particular KS high-pitched whine, but I don't recall having read any reports of any such noises. I checked with a flashlight and there don't seem to be any leaves or mud stuck inside, and the wheel doesn't make that noise when I spin the wheel with it off. TBH, I couldn't say whether it made this noise the first two days or not; the first day I was testing the speakers while riding and second day don't recall hearing anything odd, but might have missed it due to the excitement of my first proper ride.

I have a few recordings here:

Braking (noise starts at second 6; sorry about the wind noise): https://vocaroo.com/i/s05iaWL9JzhR

Constant low-speed: https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rCm5sT5h6N

Spinning the tire with the wheel off: https://vocaroo.com/i/s0voPeT0IlgL

 

Could this be the motor? Is it normal? It's got me a bit worried, I've only had the 18XL for 3 days...

Maybe it's just paranoia and the noise is normal (my first KS), but I can't shake the sense of uneasiness and would be eternally grateful for any input you guys can provide! 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by travsformation

[radial]

Sounds like normal motor noise to me.  

[RockyTop]

Sounds normal. The MSuper makes that low speed rumble, growl , most of the time. The XL tends to do it more when on expert mode. You can feel it and hear it. It almost feels like gears in a transmission.

Edited January 18, 2019 by RockyTop

[Lutalo]

I don't actually hear anything odd. I would check to see if your tire might be rubbing. Maybe, the impact from the fall disrupted the wheel alignment and now its rubbing a bit, but I doubt it the KS is pretty tough. You could check the tire itself to see if it's properly seated.  It's difficult to say,  but it seems okay to me. 

[travsformation]

31 minutes ago, radial said:

Sounds like normal motor noise to me.

 

15 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Sounds normal. The MSuper makes that low speed rumble, growl , most of the time.

Thanks!  

I guess it struck me as odd because, although I'd anticipated the whine, this rumble/rattling sounded to me more like something was loose, scraping, or stuck in the inner casing than what I associated with an EUC motor sound...

The fact I'd had the horizontal calibration issue (which I initially though was rim/axle damage) must have contributed to my sense of "shit, I broke something"...

16 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

You can feel it and hear it. It almost feels like gears in a transmission. 

Haha that's definitely something I hadn't anticipated! Until the XL, an EUC motor to me has been the sound of the V8...completely silent. This rumbling beast caught me off guard!

5 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I don't actually hear anything odd. I would check to see if your tire might be rubbing. Maybe, the impact from the fall disrupted the wheel alignment and now its rubbing a bit, but I doubt it the KS is pretty tough. You could check the tire itself to see if it's properly seated.  It's difficult to say,  but it seems okay to me. 

I've checked and the tire doesn't seem to be rubbing anywhere. I've also spun the wheel with the EUC upside down, and haven't noticed any kind of deviation indicating wheel misalignment or a bent rim. It would have shocked me if I'd damaged the wheel, 'cause I had no trouble keeping up with the wheel when I bailed, and the V8's had much nastier mishaps than that...

Although I did initially think I'd bent/misaligned/damaged something because when the kill sensor fails to activate, MAN does the wheel start vibrating like mad when it reaches full rpms; with the V8 it was more like a resigned child having a half-assed tantrum, fully aware there was nothing it could do to escape my clutches; with the XL it's more like I wild animal with no doubt in its mind that it has the power to release itself from my grasp, make a run for it, and possibly turn around and come back to attack me.

I thought that vibration indicated damage. But if it's just the character of the beast...I'm even happier than before to be riding it!

[Lutalo]

28 minutes ago, travsformation said:

I thought that vibration indicated damage. But if it's just the character of the beast...I'm even happier than before to be riding it! 

 very cool. To be honest, you would probably be way more sensitive to the vicissitudes of XL than me, because you are coming from a different brand, power, size. I have exclusively owned and ridden 18" wheels. Plus, I rode the 18L for 6 months prior to buying the XL; so, I was pretty much accustomed to its dynamics and personality (except for what I noted about performance characteristics related to the weight differences between the two wheels in my reviews about it)

So I am sure that the XL feels very different and you are hypersensitive to them as they relate to your previous experience. 

Get pumped. You just traded in your Volkswagen Jetta for a Mercedes S65 AMG 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Lutalo

[Marty Backe]

It's notoriously difficult to diagnose wheel issues from videos or (especially) sound records. I've got nothing for you 

You should hear all the grumbling sounds that come from Gotway wheels. Really, all wheels make interesting motor sounds in different situations.

This might be a case of being hyper-sensitive to anything outside of 'perfect'  

Edited January 18, 2019 by Marty Backe

[radial]

My "other wheel" is also a V8, so I know what you mean.  The V8 is a pretty quiet machine, but not really soundless.  My brand new never dumped XL sounds exactly like your audio recordings.  I think you're good.  

[Rama Douglas]

Well, I just experienced a death wobble too on my XL. 😬 I was going around what felt like 22mph down a gentle downslope, and to the right. This was later on in my ride. I'm generally very conscious of my foot placement and I think they were similarly placed to how I normally ride, with my feet placed a bit more forward on the pedals. I had slight, easy to recover from and avoid later wobbles last week getting acclimated to the wheel, but today, seems like there was nothing I could do to stop it. I tried braking, but seemed unable to aggressively brake. I was able to get it slowed down a few mph before I dismounted. It was super weird. Thankfully, I was able to slow it a bit. My gear did it's job and I was unhurt. I had enough time to remind myself to throw the kneepads and elbow pads and wrist guards into the ground, and I slid it out. Whew! Worst part is the wheel has some good scratches now. I attribute it to being later on in a long ride and having fatigued leg muscles. 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rama Douglas said:

Well, I just experienced a death wobble too on my XL. 😬 I was going around what felt like 22mph down a gentle downslope, and to the right. This was later on in my ride. I'm generally very conscious of my foot placement and I think they were similarly placed to how I normally ride, with my feet placed a bit more forward on the pedals. I had slight, easy to recover from and avoid later wobbles last week getting acclimated to the wheel, but today, seems like there was nothing I could do to stop it. I tried braking, but seemed unable to aggressively brake. I was able to get it slowed down a few mph before I dismounted. It was super weird. Thankfully, I was able to slow it a bit. My gear did it's job and I was unhurt. I had enough time to remind myself to throw the kneepads and elbow pads and wrist guards into the ground, and I slid it out. Whew! Worst part is the wheel has some good scratches now. I attribute it to being later on in a long ride and having fatigued leg muscles. 

 Save the Death Wobbles until after our ride on Sunday, OK? 

Glad you're OK. Now you can stop worrying about scratching up the new wheel  You knew it was going to happen eventually.

I've experienced Death Wobbles a few times, one extremely severe. Fortunately I was always able to stay on the wheel (don't ask me how). For me they were always a consequence of going very fast and either hitting a bump the wrong way or encountering uneven ground and/or ripples. Scary stuff.

Still want to cruise 25+ mph this Sunday?  

Edited January 19, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Rama Douglas]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to a nice cruising speed on Sunday. 😎 Feeling pretty good considering just crashing at around 20mph...Gearing up is a must! 

[Marty Backe]

52 minutes ago, Rama Douglas said:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to a nice cruising speed on Sunday. 😎 Feeling pretty good considering just crashing at around 20mph...Gearing up is a must! 

I think I'll ride my Monster. See if you can keep up 

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

Well, I just experienced a death wobble too on my XL. 😬 I was going around what felt like 22mph down a gentle downslope, and to the right. This was later on in my ride. I'm generally very conscious of my foot placement and I think they were similarly placed to how I normally ride, with my feet placed a bit more forward on the pedals. I had slight, easy to recover from and avoid later wobbles last week getting acclimated to the wheel, but today, seems like there was nothing I could do to stop it. I tried braking, but seemed unable to aggressively brake. I was able to get it slowed down a few mph before I dismounted. It was super weird. Thankfully, I was able to slow it a bit. My gear did it's job and I was unhurt. I had enough time to remind myself to throw the kneepads and elbow pads and wrist guards into the ground, and I slid it out. Whew! Worst part is the wheel has some good scratches now. I attribute it to being later on in a long ride and having fatigued leg muscles. 

Wow! Dude. Sorry to hear that. Glad your'e okay. Now I feel guilty complaining bout my marred foot platforms.

At least you can custom vinyl wrap that wheel in any color you like. They even have animal skin wraps now. You can go wild "Ramadouglacizing" that wheel and cover up those nasty looking hardcore rider scars 👍

[travsformation]

12 hours ago, Lutalo said:

 very cool. To be honest, you would probably be way more sensitive to the vicissitudes of XL than me, because you are coming from a different brand, power, size. I have exclusively owned and ridden 18" wheels. Plus, I rode the 18L for 6 months prior to buying the XL; so, I was pretty much accustomed to its dynamics and personality (except for what I noted about performance characteristics related to the weight differences between the two wheels in my reviews about it)

So I am sure that the XL feels very different and you are hypersensitive to them as they relate to your previous experience. 

Get pumped. You just traded in your Volkswagen Jetta for a Mercedes S65 AMG 

 

Yeah, that's probably the case. It's quite the change from the V8 to the XL. Or as you said, from the Jetta to the S65 AMG

And different brand, different size, different power...guess it's ALL new to me (as was the feeling of thinking I'd broken my wheel)

 

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's notoriously difficult to diagnose wheel issues from videos or (especially) sound records. I've got nothing for you 

You should hear all the grumbling sounds that come from Gotway wheels. Really, all wheels make interesting motor sounds in different situations.

 

I totally understand about the acoustic diagnosis, no worries  

But it's reassuring that no one heard anything out of the ordinary (when to my ear, unaccustomed to the grumbling of larger and more powerful wheels, it sounded like something was clearly wrong). I guess this just adds an interesting new dimension to my "XL experience", in terms of learning about the character of the beast.

 

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This might be a case of being hyper-sensitive to anything outside of 'perfect'   

 

I don't have any kind of benchmark or anything equivalent(ish) to compare it to, so I wouldn't really know. But having said that, after what it cost (remember the 18XL was way beyond my budget) and how long it took it to arrive, it better be (in) perfect (condition)!

 

8 hours ago, radial said:

My "other wheel" is also a V8, so I know what you mean.  The V8 is a pretty quiet machine, but not really soundless.  My brand new never dumped XL sounds exactly like your audio recordings.  I think you're good.  

 

Thanks a ton! The sentence I highlighted is exactly was I was hoping (or praying) to hear!

Yeah, the V8 isn't soundless, but mine essentially has three basic sounds: accelerating, cruising and braking, and all of them sound exactly like what I would have associated, prior to owning an EUC, with a "frictionless" electric motor. When you switch on the 18XL, that idling whine appears, accompanied by what sounds like a PC fan. This thing definitely exudes power, especially coming from a V8! (my partner was intimidated by it just looking at it), and as all of you have pointed out, I guess my concerns stemmed from the novelty of dealing with an entirely different animal for the first time.

I thought the upgrade to the XL was going to be more "seamless"--just more power and more weight to learn how to control--, but all these other differences I'm encountering just make it all the more interesting and exciting, like climbing on the back of a horse you've never ridden before, learning it's character and finding the balance between controlling it and letting it be itself. I love it!

7 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

Well, I just experienced a death wobble too on my XL. 😬

Worst part is the wheel has some good scratches now.

Glad you didn't hurt yourself! And yupp, wheel's first battle scars hurt, but pave the way to no longer caring about scratching it up. 

 

Anyway, thanks to all for your feedback and for putting an end to my mental loop of "Damn, I broke my wheel!"

 

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by travsformation

[travsformation]

BTW, @Lutalo on the subject of vinyl wraps...is it a matter of buying the wrap and cutting it to size one's self, or are there actually custom-cut vinyls for sale?

[Seba]

1 hour ago, travsformation said:

 

Anyway, thanks to all for your feedback and for putting an end to my mental loop of "Damn, I broke my wheel!"

You can always repaint your wheel  There is even something called "rubber in spray can". It masks well any scratches and protect the surface to some extent. But the main point is that you can peel this rubber coating off your wheel and repaint again  I used it few days ago to refresh my KS-18L after 5 000 km and it looks nice & promising.

 

 

[Lutalo]

3 hours ago, travsformation said:

BTW, @Lutalo on the subject of vinyl wraps...is it a matter of buying the wrap and cutting it to size one's self, or are there actually custom-cut vinyls for sale?

It comes in rolls of varying sizes based on need. I usually buy 5' X 6' rolls to make sure there is enough in case I mess up or decide to wrap something else; like, a helmet to match my wheel.

In the photo is a roll of 5x6 vinyl I bought to do the blue on my AY. I like Vivid or Teckwrap vinyls because they are inexpensive and give great finishes. The roll in the photo costed me about $70. A similar sized roll from a premium brand like Hexis, or Avery would cost about $300. The premium finishes are awesome, but they all give great finishes. I have a sample swatch from Avery; oh man, is it impressive in person. It is better looking than the Teckwrap that I have. But, I have to ask if it is $230 worth of better.

The photo of your wheel is the best evidence that shit happens that detracts from a wheel's finish. Buy enough wrap so that you have more on hand to Rewrap without to much trouble if necessary. The more you do it, the better you get at it. 

The advantage over paint is that the

1. The finish is always right, because it's already done for you. 

2. No noxious fumes to deal with if your space is limited. 

Paint is great if you plan to touch up a scratch as @Seba pointed out, but if you want to refinish the wheel, I prefer vinyl. Less surface prep less mess, or easier to discard mess. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Lutalo

[Lutalo]

24 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

It comes in rolls of varying sizes based on need. I usually buy 5' X 6' rolls to make sure there is enough in case I mess up or decide to wrap something else; like, a helmet to match my wheel.

In the photo is a roll of 5x6 vinyl I bought to do the blue on my AY. I like Vivid or Teckwrap vinyls because they are inexpensive and give great finishes. The roll in the photo costed me about $70. A similar sized roll from a premium brand like Hexis, or Avery would cost about $300. The premium finishes are awesome, but they all give great finishes. I have a sample swatch from Avery; oh man, is it impressive in person. It is better looking than the Teckwrap that I have. But, I have to ask if it is $230 worth of better.

The photo of your wheel is the best evidence that shit happens that detracts from a wheel's finish. Buy enough wrap so that you have more on hand to Rewrap without to much trouble if necessary. The more you do it, the better you get at it. 

The advantage over paint is that the

1. The finish is always right, because it's already done for you. 

2. No noxious fumes to deal with if your space is limited. 

Paint is great if you plan to touch up a scratch as @Seba pointed out, but if you want to refinish the wheel, I prefer vinyl. Less surface prep less mess, or easier to discard mess. 

Here is the Teckwrap satin red chrome I purchased. This is what is going on my 18XL sometime in February, or March if February turns out to be too busy for me to get to the project. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Lutalo

[Rama Douglas]

16 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Wow! Dude. Sorry to hear that. Glad your'e okay. Now I feel guilty complaining bout my marred foot platforms.

At least you can custom vinyl wrap that wheel in any color you like. They even have animal skin wraps now. You can go wild "Ramadouglacizing" that wheel and cover up those nasty looking hardcore rider scars 👍

Hilarious! Even though it sounded bad when I hit, the wheel smacked and rolled pretty hard, the scrapes are not as bad as I was expecting judging from the noise. One thing I noticed about this wreck is that compared with my slower speed wreck, this time I had momentum built up and slid across the pavement rather than just a full-force faceplant downward. A big part of that of course was the half second or so of me "remembering" to get the pads to connect with the pavement first. It was scary as F@$k though when it happened. Funny too, because when I was acclimating to the wheel, I felt that when it started a wobble, it was easy to correct. Something about my faster speed, the tired legs, and the slight downslope all seemed to contribute to me having no chance of getting it under control. I have been a bit speed hungry perhaps too early on the XL, or just tired at that point in the ride, but so happy the gear (mostly did it's job). After the adrenaline wore off, I realized I have a bit of a sore left arm, sternum, and a small road rash on my right side by my belt. But the jeans really protected that area. Nothing to keep me off the wheel, thankfully. Everything was very minor. Very lucky and grateful! Plus, now I can start taking it off road because now I'm not afraid of more scratches to the surface of the wheel. Gotta look at the bright side, so I can continue "SupeRamaDouglascizing"...😜 @Lutalo

Edited January 19, 2019 by Rama Douglas

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, Rama Douglas said:

Hilarious! Even though it sounded bad when I hit, the wheel smacked and rolled pretty hard, the scrapes are not as bad as I was expecting judging from the noise. One thing I noticed about this wreck is that compared with my slower speed wreck, this time I had momentum built up and slid across the pavement rather than just a full-force faceplant downward. A big part of that of course was the half second or so of me "remembering to get the pads to connect with the pavement first. It was scary as F@$k though when it happened. Funny too, because when I was acclimating to the wheel, I felt that when it started a wobble, it was easy to correct. Something about my faster speed, the tired legs, and the slight downslope all seemed to contribute to me having no chance of getting it under control. I have been a bit speed hungry perhaps too early on the XL, or just tired at that point in the ride, but so happy the gear (mostly did it's job). After the adrenaline wore off, I realized I have a bit of a sore left arm, sternum, and a small road rash on my right side by my belt. But the jeans really protected that area. Nothing to keep me off the wheel  thankfully. Everything was very minor. Very lucky and grateful! Plus, now I can start taking it off road because now I'm not afraid of more scratches to the surface of the wheel. Gotta look at the bright side, so I can continue "SupeRamaDouglascizing"...😜 @Lutalo

Gotta give those leg muscles time to acclimate to manhandling this beast. Digging the Tron symbol on the side of the wheel. You've already Ramadouglacized it. 

I will soon "Lutalinate" my XL. When I do. I will call my wheel the "Lutalinator" 

[Rama Douglas]

50 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

You've already Ramadouglacized it. 

I will soon "Lutalinate" my XL. When I do. I will call my wheel the "Lutalinator" 

Haha! Lutalinate! LoL 😁👍👌🏻😎

Edited January 19, 2019 by Rama Douglas

[travsformation]

On 1/19/2019 at 1:15 PM, Seba said:

You can always repaint your wheel  There is even something called "rubber in spray can". It masks well any scratches and protect the surface to some extent. But the main point is that you can peel this rubber coating off your wheel and repaint again  I used it few days ago to refresh my KS-18L after 5 000 km and it looks nice & promising.

Thanks! Have added the video you attached to my Youtube "EUC" playlist!

On 1/19/2019 at 3:38 PM, Lutalo said:

It comes in rolls of varying sizes based on need. I usually buy 5' X 6' rolls to make sure there is enough in case I mess up or decide to wrap something else; like, a helmet to match my wheel.

In the photo is a roll of 5x6 vinyl I bought to do the blue on my AY. I like Vivid or Teckwrap vinyls because they are inexpensive and give great finishes. The roll in the photo costed me about $70. A similar sized roll from a premium brand like Hexis, or Avery would cost about $300. The premium finishes are awesome, but they all give great finishes. I have a sample swatch from Avery; oh man, is it impressive in person. It is better looking than the Teckwrap that I have. But, I have to ask if it is $230 worth of better.

Thanks for the thorough answer! Looked into it and...so many designs to choose from! That'll definitely give me something to do on rainy days (like today; it hasn't rained here since October, not a drop...I get my 18XL, and two days later it starts raining and hasn't stopped since!     )

BTW, how well do vinyls hold up in terms of falls, scratches, etc.?

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, travsformation said:

BTW, how well do vinyls hold up in terms of falls, scratches, etc.?

Much tougher than paint with an additional major advantage; with vinyl, the offending panel with the damaged vinyl film can be removed and replaced with fresh film pretty easily and quickly.

Also it's tough enough to leave your paint finish hiding underneath untouched by tough falls. My KS18AY wrapped in Blue satin chrome metallic has taken some falls and none of them have torn the vinyl enough to expose the original shell finish. 

You can expect vinyl to have a 3 to 5yr life span on a car. On an EUC that sleeps indoors and is rarely parked outside for prolonged periods; indefinitely.

Having said that many SMEs feel that vinyl should be replaced every three years or so because the adhesive can become permanent after that time making it very difficult to remove. This might not be true for EUCs because they generally don't receive as much help from the deteriorating effects of weather as do cars. Personally, I don't take chances. My strategy is to remove and reapply every couple of years.

If you've wrapped your wheel and intend to sell it, I recommend removing the wrap before you do if it has been on your wheel more than two years. This ensures that it doesn't stay on the wheel for too many years.

Leaving wrap on too long may give the succeeding owner a big headache if they decide to remove the wrap au a later date. Your wheel's original finish will be pristine underneath and the new owner can rewrap the wheel if they desire, or enjoy the beautiful original finish that the wrap has protected.

[Seba]

6 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Much tougher than paint with an additional major advantage; with vinyl, the offending panel with the damaged vinyl film can be removed and replaced with fresh film pretty easily and quickly.

You made me thinking of vinyl wrapping my new XL  How does vinyl adhere to the rubber coating of the XL shell?

[Lutalo]

On 1/21/2019 at 2:42 AM, Seba said:

You made me thinking of vinyl wrapping my new XL  How does vinyl adhere to the rubber coating of the XL shell?

Quite well @Yanex87 wrapped his rubberized paint 18L in a carbon fiber vinyl; it looks good. 👍