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Major Bathos

Factory loaded firmware - KS-18XL

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So I got my new KS-18XL today and I'm anxiously going through the set up and charge before I hit the road. One thing I noticed is the firmware loaded on the unit is the ks-18l, not the ks-18xl. Is there a firmware specific for the xl? I would imagine if the speed reductions doesn't start at 50% like it does on the L. 

Can any other XL owners confirm the existence of an XL firmware? 

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My 18XL shipped with firmware V1.11. The latest King Song app reports it as a KS-18L firmware.

I am using app version 1.54.

Your question is interesting to me as well.  I've ridden my wheel down to low battery and performance level, but there were still 4 green lights on if I recall correctly. I will pay attention to the details this battery cycle.

Screenshot_20190108-172801.png

Screenshot_20190108-173022.png

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Perhaps @US69 can chime in here, but I would assume that the only difference between the L and XL is the number of batteries. So there should not be a separate firmware version for the XL.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Unosolo said:

My 18XL shipped with firmware V1.11. The latest King Song app reports it as a KS-18L firmware.

I am using app version 1.54.

Your question is interesting to me as well.  I've ridden my wheel down to low battery and performance level, but there were still 4 green lights on if I recall correctly. I will pay attention to the details this battery cycle.

 

 

When you say, "... down to low battery ...", what exactly do you mean? E.g. You were using the KingSong app and it said you had 15% battery yet you still saw 4 green LEDs?

Please elaborate on what you mean by "low". Thanks.

Edited by Marty Backe

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My new concern is the model. I got WheelLog up and running not too long ago and the unit is telling it that the model is KS-18L. 

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19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I would assume that the only difference between the L and XL is the number of batteries. So there should not be a separate firmware version for the XL.

Wouldn't the firmware control when the unit is going to throttle back due to battery percentage? My understanding is the 18L starts to slow you down at the 50% mark while the 18XL doesn't start that until 25%ish. 

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7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

When you say, "... down to low battery ...", what exactly do you mean? E.g. You were using the KingSong app and it said you had 15% battery yet you still saw 4 green LEDs?

Please elaborate on what you mean by "low". Thanks.

I mean low battery as in the performance / max speed was very slow. Slower than learning mode slow. Stop at the nearest place to charge slow. I can't say for certain how many lights were still on at that point.

I'm familiar enough with the wheel now to answer those questions this battery cycle. I will follow up with a post to this thread.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Major Bathos said:

Wouldn't the firmware control when the unit is going to throttle back due to battery percentage? My understanding is the 18L starts to slow you down at the 50% mark while the 18XL doesn't start that until 25%ish. 

It's important to understand that the additional batteries in the XL are added in parallel. Therefore the voltage levels are not affected (it's still an 84-volt wheel).

All the control board sees is a voltage level. Whether that voltage is coming from a 800wh battery subsystem or 1600wh battery is irrelevant to the control board.

The Ninebot Z10 attempts to predict an available "remaining range" because it does know that it has 1000wh of available capacity. That's a firmware function. I'm trying to recall from memory, but I don't believe the KingSong app provides a range value, so the firmware does not need to know the battery capacity.

Edited by Marty Backe

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59 minutes ago, Unosolo said:

My 18XL shipped with firmware V1.11. The latest King Song app reports it as a KS-18L firmware.

I am using app version 1.54.

Your question is interesting to me as well.  I've ridden my wheel down to low battery and performance level, but there were still 4 green lights on if I recall correctly. I will pay attention to the details this battery cycle.

Screenshot_20190108-172801.png

Screenshot_20190108-173022.png

We, the rider make a nomenclature distinction between the L and XL; the manufacturer does not. The app will report the XL as an L. This also initially confused me,  because I also have an L. When connecting the wheel the app kept showing me 18L when searching for the device so I thought it was finding my other wheel and failing to locate my XL; Not! 😅. Finally,  it dawned on me to tap the 18L icon, and Lo-N-Behold my XL lit up like a Christmas tree. 😁😂. Long story short. To Kingsong, the 18XL is just an 18L.

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11 minutes ago, Unosolo said:

I mean low battery as in the performance / max speed was very slow. Slower than learning mode slow. Stop at the nearest place to charge slow. I can't say for certain how many lights were still on at that point.

I'm familiar enough with the wheel now to answer those questions this battery cycle. I will follow up with a post to this thread.

From my perspective, the most useful information (everything else is very subjective) is the actual battery percentage reported by the KingSong app (not WheelLog, which is not accurate for XL).

I would consider anything lower than 15-percent to be low, and should probably correlate to maybe 1 lit LED.

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6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's important to understand that the additional batteries in the XL are added in parallel. Therefore the voltage levels are not affected (it's still an 84-volt wheel).

All the control board see is a voltage level. Whether that voltage is coming from a 800wh battery subsystem or 1600wh battery is irrelevant to the control board.

The Ninebot Z10 attempts to predict an available "remaining range" because it does know that it has 1000wh of available capacity. That's a firmware function. I'm trying to recall from memory, but I don't believe the KingSong provides a range value, so the firmware does not need to know the battery capacity.

If they (KingSong) do say that they only use the 18L firmware for both models then you'd be right with the voltage level being the initiator of the throttle back. I'm interested to see what they tell me. 

I'll be sure to post my findings here if the community doesn't learn it before I do. 

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31 minutes ago, Major Bathos said:

If they (KingSong) do say that they only use the 18L firmware for both models then you'd be right with the voltage level being the initiator of the throttle back. I'm interested to see what they tell me. 

I'll be sure to post my findings here if the community doesn't learn it before I do. 

I'll bet my paycheck that the firmware does not need to know whether you have a L or XL. @US69 can confirm.

But I understand your concern. When you are new to EUCs everything is a mystery. Eventually you'll come to recognize how simple they are and get to know their various idiosyncrasies. 

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1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I'll bet my paycheck that the firmware does not need to know whether you have a L or XL. @US69 can confirm.

But I understand your concern. When you are new to EUCs everything is a mystery. Eventually you'll come to recognize how simple they are and get to know their various idiosyncrasies. 

Yeah I've been reading and trying to learn as I progress. Switching from a starter Ninebot One S1 to this KingSong today is night and day. I feel like I've never ridden an EUC today. The S1 is nimble and weak while the 18xl has power but doesn't turn as easily. I'm liking the challenge but I feel like a bull in a china shop. 

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5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'll bet my paycheck that the firmware does not need to know whether you have a L or XL. @US69 can confirm.

Did you say that you would bet an entire paycheck? Too bad you are pretty certain to win that bet, or I would have taken it:D

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4 minutes ago, Major Bathos said:

Yeah I've been reading and trying to learn as I progress. Switching from a starter Ninebot One S1 to this KingSong today is night and day. I feel like I've never ridden an EUC today. The S1 is nimble and weak while the 18xl has power but doesn't turn as easily. I'm liking the challenge but I feel like a bull in a china shop. 

Soon you will feel like Tinkerbell on a leaf. :D

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@martybacke

I don't know if there is different firmware, but if it isn't then there need to be at least different code paths to differentiate between  when the KS18L and the KS18XL start to limit speed.  The limit on the higher cell count wheel is set to a lower percentage of battery left.  The 18l starts throttling at 50% and the 18xl starts at 25%. They allow this because there are more cells in parallel on the 18xl and and can collectively give enough current at lower cell voltages safely. The throttling has to happen at a higher voltage on the 18l and a lower one on the 18xl. So it's either different firmware or the controller need a way to determine what type of battery packs are installed. We'll hopefully  know more if ewheels comes out with a 18l to 18xl upgrade kit and what it entails (either control board swap, firmware upgrade, or nothing)

The same thing happens in the KS14d and KS14S. Think there is different firmware for the 14" wheels since upgrading a 14d to a 14S requires a control board swap. 

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9 minutes ago, buggydanny said:

@martybacke

I don't know if there is different firmware, but if it isn't then there need to be at least different code paths to differentiate between  when the KS18L and the KS18XL start to limit speed.  The limit on the higher cell count wheel is set to a lower percentage of battery left.  The 18l starts throttling at 50% and the 18xl starts at 25%. They allow this because there are more cells in parallel on the 18xl and and can collectively give enough current at lower cell voltages safely. The throttling has to happen at a higher voltage on the 18l and a lower one on the 18xl. So it's either different firmware or the controller need a way to determine what type of battery packs are installed. We'll hopefully  know more if ewheels comes out with a 18l to 18xl upgrade kit and what it entails (either control board swap, firmware upgrade, or nothing)

The same thing happens in the KS14d and KS14S. Think there is different firmware for the 14" wheels since upgrading a 14d to a 14S requires a control board swap. 

I didn't realize that the speed throttling level is different between the two wheels.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I didn't realize that the speed throttling level is different between the two wheels.

Oh yeah! You can go balls out on the XL all the way down to 25% before it will start to throttle your speed. 

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3 hours ago, US69 said:

To my Knowledge:

There is a Firmware difference between 18L and 18XL, giving the L a slightly more safety Buffer when it Comes to Speed reducing.

The Advantage the XL has is that because of the more parallel packs 6 instead of 4 the voltagedrop is less (mathematic 50% less, in real life not that high)

However, boards on the 18L/XL (latest versions!) are the exact same and ALL KS wheels use the same Firmware.

The Firmware adjusts the Wheel Settings by registering the Wheel over it's Serial number.

So NO, a board swap is not needed, when someone would do a battery upgrade, however, what you would Need is a Serial number Change!

That also goes to 14d to 14s upgrade, boards, wheels are exactly the same....

 

Other than that a 18L to XL battery upgrade is not that easy! Because of the Special cell configuration, you can not just throw in a additional 518wh pack, as this 40 cell pack would not fit into the Wheel. Special Solutions are needed….

Great information - thanks!

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4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Great information - thanks!

That was close! You get to keep your pay check on a technicality. :efefc8626c: :D

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1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

That was close! You get to keep your pay check on a technicality. :efefc8626c: :D

And fortunately nobody took me up on the bet. I'm a good poker player :ph34r:

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I rode my KS-18XL down to crawling speed, 0% and 1 red (not green) LED. When I started feeling a perceptible performance loss and kick-back, I checked the King Song app v1.54 and the reported battery level was 17%. My pace this morning through straightaways was between 40kmph and 49kmph (kick-back). I can say with confidence, that I was not able to perceive a performance loss between 50% and 25% battery level as reported by the King Song app. For my riding pace, I didn't feel inhibited by the battery charge until below 20%.

@Lutalo Interestingly, the app is identifying the wheel as KS-18L-KS18XL1 on the main screen.

Based on the initial voltage during recharging it appears 0% battery equates to 65 volts.

Screenshot_20190110-115354.png

1red-led.jpg

65v.jpg

Edited by Uno Solo
Fixed mention

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7 minutes ago, Uno Solo said:

I rode my KS-18XL down to crawling speed, 0% and 1 red (not green) LED. When I started feeling a perceptible performance loss and kick-back, I checked the King Song app v1.54 and the reported battery level was 17%. My pace this morning through straightaways was between 40kmph and 49kmph (kick-back). I can say with confidence, that I was not able to perceive a performance loss between 50% and 25% battery level as reported by the King Song app. For my riding pace, I didn't feel inhibited by the battery charge until below 20%.

@Lutalo Interestingly, the app is identifying the wheel as KS-18L-KS18XL1 on the main screen.

Based on the initial voltage during recharging it appears 0% battery equates to 65 volts.

Approximately how far did you travel between the ~17% and ~0%

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9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Approximately how far did you travel between the ~17% and ~0%

Only about 2 miles, slow, especially the last mile. I didn't have to trolley it though. It took me the last mile.

Edited by Uno Solo

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