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Luiz

When gotway will release a self balaced skateboard ?

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51 minutes ago, who_the said:

There are a few more layers of — in my mind, undesired — complexity with a Onewheel, including the platform sensors, and the way the motor engages. To me, especially on initial tip-in, the Onewheel seems much more on/off with its power, rather than the linear, analog feeling I appreciate so much with our EUC.

Sorry, I'm with @meepmeepmayer on this one, OW is basically a sideways EUC with foot sensors to engage the gyro to balance. We've seen a similar mechanism in the now defunct UK-manufactured UniWheel, sensors near the pedals to disengage the motor and prevent runaway wheels after falls.

The OW might feel different in power because you must overcome the contrary nature of the OW setup vs physics, on initial acceleration, etc.. Without power, the OW is naturally inclined to roll backwards if you are pushing down on the front-facing, front-of-the-wheel pad. It's only programmed the other way because our brains would get confused mixing up directions (maybe it should be the other way?)

 

51 minutes ago, who_the said:

The founders of Onewheel hold 30+ (U.S.) patents on various intellectual property in connection with their product. 

Errrr.. if you search the US patent library, there are tons of questionable stuff in there, self-balancing patents that mirror other patents, etc.

I think this is part patent law defense, really.

 

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Motor power probably isn't up to modern EUC standards, too. Top speed 16mph. Not even tried to do any waterpoofing. Etc. They're behind the curve badly compared to current EUC standards. EUCs were where they are 3 or 4 years ago.

Yup.

FYI, the Plus (14s1p / 130wH) & Plus XR (15s2p / 324wH) models go 30kph / 19mph max, so following along the lines of EUCs, probably ~800W nominal motors. No wonder there are so many 'nosedives', 1-2p is not enough to sustain such a motor when pushed to the extremes.

 

Edited by houseofjob
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Yep, a Onewheel does nothing technologically that a EUC doesn't do (much better). Sure, their firmware is a bit different, probably it rides quite soft in comparison to EUCs. But they're doing nothing that any EUC manufacturer can't (easily) match, be it first principles, hardware, or software. (Their marketing is good, though, and probably their app is actually decent.)

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

FYI, the Plus (14s1p / 130wH) & Plus XR (15s2p / 324wH) models go 30kph / 19mph max, so following along the lines of EUCs, probably ~800W nominal motors. No wonder there are so many 'nosedives', 1-2p is not enough to sustain such a motor when pushed to the extremes.

Oh God I didn't know it was that bad. 130Wh 1p system? 324Wh as biggest available capacity?:barf:

The motor is probably the same one they used since the beginning, so very old, in line with EUC motors of that time. 500W, 800W, something like this.

Someone needs to rescue the riders from this company;)

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29 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

It's only programmed the other way because our brains would get confused mixing up directions (maybe it should be the other way?)

No, it's like that because it can only be like that. Otherwise it would be actively un-balancing, just like it is self-balancing now. It gotta go where the weight shifts in order to balance, not run away from the weight shift to actively un-balance. Switch the motor cables or whatever it takes to reverse motor direction on a EUC and see what happens - a rapid runaway:)

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2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

No, it's like that because it can only be like that. Otherwise it would be actively un-balancing, just like it is self-balancing now. It gotta go where the weight shifts in order to balance, not run away from the weight shift to actively un-balance. Switch the motor cables or whatever it takes to reverse motor direction on a EUC and see what happens - a rapid runaway:)

I stand corrected :lol: (still kinda wanna try... maybe on not-my-wheel :ph34r:)

Edited by houseofjob

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14 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

 (still kinda wanna try... maybe on not-my-wheel :ph34r:)

Well, it actively tries to tilt as much as possible as fast as possible. On a EUC, that would mean actively trying to fall over, whatever it takes. It would succeed with prejudice;) On a Onewheel with less tilt possible before the end of the board just meets the ground, the result is probably more boring, but also funnier. I guess a very quick zoom away from under you, like it had no electronics and the ground had zero friction. Then it would accelerate into the distance like in a cartoon. Just film it, and add some slapstick sound effects:D

I picture it like this (timecoded at 4:15):

 

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

The OW might feel different in power because you must overcome the contrary nature of the OW setup vs physics, on initial acceleration, etc..

I agree with you and @meepmeepmayer on all points. I'm not trying to defend Future Motion or the form factor at all, and don't want to be misconstrued. The patents may indeed be unenforceable or irrelevant, but Future Motion holds more U.S. patents than, say, Gotway or King Song. (And fewer than Ninebot.) But no matter how many more patents they may hold in a particular country, I don't think it makes their tech or programming superior. GW and King Song have iterated through many generations of their product, both hardware and software, and the overall awesome quality of their current offerings speak to how mature and well-developed their products are.

To me, the engagement of power on a Onewheel feels different from our EUC, and again, in my opinion, inferior. The Onewheels I have ridden have a bit of a dead zone, after you tilt the deck and before the power engages. For a number of reasons, they're just not my jam. EUC forever.

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Great discussion guys . That is why i love this forum.

I think the learning curve is diferent than Eucs . EUCs are more dificult at first , but after it clicks you feel stable prety quick . OWs are easier to ride at fitrst but takes more time to get fluid and feel confortable with the wobles they produce . The OWs are less forgiving than eucs . It reminds me of my first euc (airwheel X3) . It would kick me out mercilessly if  i overpowered it just a bit ( no redundancy ) . 

Edited by Luiz

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7 hours ago, who_the said:

To me, the engagement of power on a Onewheel feels different from our EUC, and again, in my opinion, inferior. The Onewheels I have ridden have a bit of a dead zone, after you tilt the deck and before the power engages. For a number of reasons, they're just not my jam. EUC forever.

Never tried a OW, but if you look at EUCs with equivalent (ooooooooold) tech, you find very soft riding modes (like on the og Solowheels) hiding the weak motors and protecting from quick (=high) stresses on the small/weak batteries. So this might be less deliberate but simply the state of their tech, using the same mitigation tricks as early EUCs. OWs came out 5 years ago, and that's where their tech has apparently mostly stayed.

But OWs also need some tolerances because the board needs to have a bit of dead zone/low reaction zone, otherwise every imbalance (especially offroad) would make it a buck under the rider and throw them off. Imagine how much more it will tilt forth and back, compared to EUC pedals.

Not sure if the OW form factor necessitates a worn-out-feeling behavior like this, but probably it's just the old tech to blame for that and could be much better if built to modern EUC standards.

OWs are cool, though, even if they can't measure up to EUCs. It's a preference, like skiing vs snowboarding.

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I confess my first impression of OW was not posive as i thought it was not natural to ride a self balanced wheel sideways (prejudice) but after ridind it i can totaly undestand why some people love it so much despite the obvious disadvantages compared to the latest euc models . I still believe it ts more dangerous to ride sideways but i was trying to convicve myself to get an OW as i reckon my underpowered airwheel X3 was an exelent teacher . I have learned the most important lessons with it (the hardest way) always respect the limitatios of the wheel and eyes on the road all the time .

But i am not sure about the OW compromises x price so i will wait a bit more in the hope that gotway or nineboat want to take my money .

Congrats for Duff on the euc army channel for showing the OW on the eyes of an euc rider .

Edited by Luiz

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Having ridden with OWheelers a few times, there's a strong social aspect since the range is so short everyone ends up recharging at a coffee shop every 20-30 minutes.

EUCs seemed to have evolved at breakneck speeds (probably at even the cost of safety), and surely competition is a big reason for that. If you put the KS18XL next to these OWs, then there's just no competition except perhaps in mud/sand, which might be irrelevant since OW's aren't suppose to be there anyway.

I'm with @meepmeepmayeron this one; OW's suck big time despite having a relevant form factor, and it's entirely due to their ancient technology compared to EUCs. 

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As an intermediate snowboarder, I love the form factor of riding a board-style EUC, and trying just the Plus version confirmed the fun factor.

Even on EUC, I'll ride my wheel with my body turned sideways and feet and momentarily adjusted, pivoted in that direction (in order to maximize leverage on the wheel for acceleration), ...

.... and I really don't find it unnatural or more dangerous at all, as IMHO for both EUC and OW, a rider should be utilizing the whole 180 front-facing plane for optimal carving / riding.

Also, interestingly, apparently OW riders face the same foot arch fatigue and speed wobbles that we face on EUC, both able to be solved by proper carving.

 

Edited by houseofjob
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In my opinion (Bare in mind that i have much more experience with eucs)  you do trade stability to have the surf feel of the OW at least at this stage . This can be mitigated by proper carving but even on the videos of experienced OW riders i noticed some woble . I am not advocating against the OW (It is very fun) althogh i believe eucs are at a more advanced stage of its development .

My point is that the device itself and riders would benefit if OW had proper competition like there is on the euc market . I would love to see what kind of inovations gotway or nineboat could introduce on their version of self balaced esk8 . Future motion opened the market but now is time for other companies to join for the benefit of consumers .

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Thanks to a bump, found the topic:

Gotway is one 90° tire turn away from being there.

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16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Thanks to a bump, found the topic:

Gotway is one 90° tire turn away from being there.

Meep, certainly you've just seen the updated video just posted by @houseofjob

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I love the onewheel, I've ridden it a couple times.  The fat wheel, the floaty feel, the snowboard stance, Its great, not to mention the software is way better than anything China has in EUC.

But I just can't bring myself to buy one though, 16mph max (19mph advertised at 200lb won't happen safely) with 10 mile range...   Even a ks16s does better than than.

If they got 15 mile range (at my weight) and 25mph, I'd think very hard about it, they are just more fun than eucs for some reason to me :).

 

It would be great if there was some Chinese competition for sure.

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10 hours ago, Jerome said:

I looked at the OW and the only positive I could find was it "Might be fun to  ride". On the negative side was the fact that you ride at kickback almost all the time given its low kickback speed ~15 mph. It looks like DIY with its plywood deck and general appearance. The top model the XR has  the battery the size of a Ninebot E+, and finally it cost $1800. I invested my $1800 on a KS18L and I am having fun while going 30 miles at speeds higher than the OW's maximum speed with no fear of kickback. However, its always different strokes for different folks. Those who dig the OW, enjoy!

Yeah.  I bought an 18L instead (a z10 and v10f as well, sold those).  If a OW cost 5-700ish, I'd probably get one.

What people forget in this forum is that an EUC is not a OW competitor.  Yes they are the "same", but not competitors.   In the US, EUC's are for... um... well... nerds :) or older people.   I ride one so don't get offended :P.   If you look at the average age on this forum, its probably 35+... maybe even 40+ years old.   The avg age of OW owners is probably <35 yrs old (no idea, just a complete guess, its had to say because its still very expensive).

A OW is competing with electric skateboards, not EUC's.   Most people have not even heard of EUC's in the US.   I was in the e-skateboard world for years before I actually took EUC's seriously.  Hoverboards hurt the perception of them I think.

If someone, as a consumer, has a starting point of boosted board, then the OW range is pretty good, the price would seem fair, and you can take it (off road) places that boosted board can only dream about.  Also, the OW is built like a tank, it seems far tougher than any of the 4 EUC's I've owned and it has a very large following in the US.

I think the price to performance ratio is off for a OW, but that's only because I know about EUC's.   Its still a very fun device :)  

 

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Thanks for sharing the video meep .

Yes , It looks like gotway has the technology all right . But they could do better than just copying FM . I beleive they can learn from OWs flaws and came up with an exiting new giroscope esk8  that is more reliable and less prone to nose dives . I know the key note for safety with eucs is redundancy and this may be the problem with OWs (the size of the kart tire may limit the motor output) . I also noticed there is a direct relation between thickness and shape of tire with woble and this may also be inproved in some way .

That is why my chips are with gotway . Because they bouldly push the limits (sometimes recklessly so) , not whithout some pain for the early adopters i must say . But nobody can deny their contribution to euc inovation . 

In my opinion there are far too many euc models at the moment . May be it is time for gotwat to diversify their rage of products and enter on this fast growing new market .

 

Edited by Luiz

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21 minutes ago, Luiz said:

In my opinion there are far too many euc models at the moment .

Wut?

2 "active" manufacturers (Gotway, King Song) with one wheel for a given tire size (at most, 10'' and 22'' there's only one choice), 2 manufacturers that release a single new wheel like every 2 years (Inmotion, Ninebot), and 2 manufacturers that are mostly theoretically existent (Rockwheel, IPS).

If anything, the market is too small for my linking.

Before I learned how shitty Future Motion tech is, I always hoped they would release a vastly better EUC. Turns out, the roles are actually reversed, and the EUC manufacturers should (and easily could) release a vastly better Onewheel-type thing.

22 minutes ago, Luiz said:

May be it is time for gotwat to diversify their rage of products and enter on this fast growing new market .

I file this under "inexplicable incompetence for no good reason" that we are so used to from our manufacturers. It's like they dislike too much money. I don't get it:confused1:

31 minutes ago, Luiz said:

But they could do better than just copying FM . I beleive they can learn from OWs flaws and came up with an exiting new giroscope esk8  that is more reliable and less prone to nose dives . I know the key note for safety with eucs is redundancy and this may be the problem with OWs (the size of the kart tire may limit the motor output) . I also noted there is a direct relation between thickness and shape of tire with woble and this may also be inproved in some way .

I'm pretty sure there are no technological limitations to a better Onewheel. They simply stuck with their 5 year old tech due to lack of competition. 5 year old EUCs were weak and unreliable just like the OW. They evolved greatly, OW did not at all.

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I agree with you 100% meep (sorry for the slopy euc models coment). I am so happy with my msuper V3 and ACM both 64 v and 850 wh that i do not feel the need to upgrade . The torque range and speed are plenty for my needs . I feel like anything else will just add unecessary weight.

Improved waterproofing would be great though .

Regarding to OW's motor output i an not so sure (the thing is tiny).  I dont know how much more power they could possibly get out of it . That is where gotway could shine with a reinvented design .

Edited by Luiz

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6 hours ago, Luiz said:

Improved waterproofing would be great though .

Er, they're doing this in the board top-mounted Tesla, MTen3, now Nikola.

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