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Luiz

When gotway will release a self balaced skateboard ?

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51 minutes ago, who_the said:

There are a few more layers of — in my mind, undesired — complexity with a Onewheel, including the platform sensors, and the way the motor engages. To me, especially on initial tip-in, the Onewheel seems much more on/off with its power, rather than the linear, analog feeling I appreciate so much with our EUC.

Sorry, I'm with @meepmeepmayer on this one, OW is basically a sideways EUC with foot sensors to engage the gyro to balance. We've seen a similar mechanism in the now defunct UK-manufactured UniWheel, sensors near the pedals to disengage the motor and prevent runaway wheels after falls.

The OW might feel different in power because you must overcome the contrary nature of the OW setup vs physics, on initial acceleration, etc.. Without power, the OW is naturally inclined to roll backwards if you are pushing down on the front-facing, front-of-the-wheel pad. It's only programmed the other way because our brains would get confused mixing up directions (maybe it should be the other way?)

 

51 minutes ago, who_the said:

The founders of Onewheel hold 30+ (U.S.) patents on various intellectual property in connection with their product. 

Errrr.. if you search the US patent library, there are tons of questionable stuff in there, self-balancing patents that mirror other patents, etc.

I think this is part patent law defense, really.

 

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Motor power probably isn't up to modern EUC standards, too. Top speed 16mph. Not even tried to do any waterpoofing. Etc. They're behind the curve badly compared to current EUC standards. EUCs were where they are 3 or 4 years ago.

Yup.

FYI, the Plus (14s1p / 130wH) & Plus XR (15s2p / 324wH) models go 30kph / 19mph max, so following along the lines of EUCs, probably ~800W nominal motors. No wonder there are so many 'nosedives', 1-2p is not enough to sustain such a motor when pushed to the extremes.

 

Edited by houseofjob
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Yep, a Onewheel does nothing technologically that a EUC doesn't do (much better). Sure, their firmware is a bit different, probably it rides quite soft in comparison to EUCs. But they're doing nothing that any EUC manufacturer can't (easily) match, be it first principles, hardware, or software. (Their marketing is good, though, and probably their app is actually decent.)

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

FYI, the Plus (14s1p / 130wH) & Plus XR (15s2p / 324wH) models go 30kph / 19mph max, so following along the lines of EUCs, probably ~800W nominal motors. No wonder there are so many 'nosedives', 1-2p is not enough to sustain such a motor when pushed to the extremes.

Oh God I didn't know it was that bad. 130Wh 1p system? 324Wh as biggest available capacity?:barf:

The motor is probably the same one they used since the beginning, so very old, in line with EUC motors of that time. 500W, 800W, something like this.

Someone needs to rescue the riders from this company;)

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29 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

It's only programmed the other way because our brains would get confused mixing up directions (maybe it should be the other way?)

No, it's like that because it can only be like that. Otherwise it would be actively un-balancing, just like it is self-balancing now. It gotta go where the weight shifts in order to balance, not run away from the weight shift to actively un-balance. Switch the motor cables or whatever it takes to reverse motor direction on a EUC and see what happens - a rapid runaway:)

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2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

No, it's like that because it can only be like that. Otherwise it would be actively un-balancing, just like it is self-balancing now. It gotta go where the weight shifts in order to balance, not run away from the weight shift to actively un-balance. Switch the motor cables or whatever it takes to reverse motor direction on a EUC and see what happens - a rapid runaway:)

I stand corrected :lol: (still kinda wanna try... maybe on not-my-wheel :ph34r:)

Edited by houseofjob

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14 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

 (still kinda wanna try... maybe on not-my-wheel :ph34r:)

Well, it actively tries to tilt as much as possible as fast as possible. On a EUC, that would mean actively trying to fall over, whatever it takes. It would succeed with prejudice;) On a Onewheel with less tilt possible before the end of the board just meets the ground, the result is probably more boring, but also funnier. I guess a very quick zoom away from under you, like it had no electronics and the ground had zero friction. Then it would accelerate into the distance like in a cartoon. Just film it, and add some slapstick sound effects:D

I picture it like this (timecoded at 4:15):

 

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

The OW might feel different in power because you must overcome the contrary nature of the OW setup vs physics, on initial acceleration, etc..

I agree with you and @meepmeepmayer on all points. I'm not trying to defend Future Motion or the form factor at all, and don't want to be misconstrued. The patents may indeed be unenforceable or irrelevant, but Future Motion holds more U.S. patents than, say, Gotway or King Song. (And fewer than Ninebot.) But no matter how many more patents they may hold in a particular country, I don't think it makes their tech or programming superior. GW and King Song have iterated through many generations of their product, both hardware and software, and the overall awesome quality of their current offerings speak to how mature and well-developed their products are.

To me, the engagement of power on a Onewheel feels different from our EUC, and again, in my opinion, inferior. The Onewheels I have ridden have a bit of a dead zone, after you tilt the deck and before the power engages. For a number of reasons, they're just not my jam. EUC forever.

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Great discussion guys . That is why i love this forum.

I think the learning curve is diferent than Eucs . EUCs are more dificult at first , but after it clicks you feel stable prety quick . OWs are easier to ride at fitrst but takes more time to get fluid and feel confortable with the wobles they produce . The OWs are less forgiving than eucs . It reminds me of my first euc (airwheel X3) . It would kick me out mercilessly if  i overpowered it just a bit ( no redundancy ) . 

Edited by Luiz

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7 hours ago, who_the said:

To me, the engagement of power on a Onewheel feels different from our EUC, and again, in my opinion, inferior. The Onewheels I have ridden have a bit of a dead zone, after you tilt the deck and before the power engages. For a number of reasons, they're just not my jam. EUC forever.

Never tried a OW, but if you look at EUCs with equivalent (ooooooooold) tech, you find very soft riding modes (like on the og Solowheels) hiding the weak motors and protecting from quick (=high) stresses on the small/weak batteries. So this might be less deliberate but simply the state of their tech, using the same mitigation tricks as early EUCs. OWs came out 5 years ago, and that's where their tech has apparently mostly stayed.

But OWs also need some tolerances because the board needs to have a bit of dead zone/low reaction zone, otherwise every imbalance (especially offroad) would make it a buck under the rider and throw them off. Imagine how much more it will tilt forth and back, compared to EUC pedals.

Not sure if the OW form factor necessitates a worn-out-feeling behavior like this, but probably it's just the old tech to blame for that and could be much better if built to modern EUC standards.

OWs are cool, though, even if they can't measure up to EUCs. It's a preference, like skiing vs snowboarding.

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I confess my first impression of OW was not posive as i thought it was not natural to ride a self balanced wheel sideways (prejudice) but after ridind it i can totaly undestand why some people love it so much despite the obvious disadvantages compared to the latest euc models . I still believe it ts more dangerous to ride sideways but i was trying to convicve myself to get an OW as i reckon my underpowered airwheel X3 was an exelent teacher . I have learned the most important lessons with it (the hardest way) always respect the limitatios of the wheel and eyes on the road all the time .

But i am not sure about the OW compromises x price so i will wait a bit more in the hope that gotway or nineboat want to take my money .

Congrats for Duff on the euc army channel for showing the OW on the eyes of an euc rider .

Edited by Luiz

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Having ridden with OWheelers a few times, there's a strong social aspect since the range is so short everyone ends up recharging at a coffee shop every 20-30 minutes.

EUCs seemed to have evolved at breakneck speeds (probably at even the cost of safety), and surely competition is a big reason for that. If you put the KS18XL next to these OWs, then there's just no competition except perhaps in mud/sand, which might be irrelevant since OW's aren't suppose to be there anyway.

I'm with @meepmeepmayeron this one; OW's suck big time despite having a relevant form factor, and it's entirely due to their ancient technology compared to EUCs. 

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As an intermediate snowboarder, I love the form factor of riding a board-style EUC, and trying just the Plus version confirmed the fun factor.

Even on EUC, I'll ride my wheel with my body turned sideways and feet and momentarily adjusted, pivoted in that direction (in order to maximize leverage on the wheel for acceleration), ...

.... and I really don't find it unnatural or more dangerous at all, as IMHO for both EUC and OW, a rider should be utilizing the whole 180 front-facing plane for optimal carving / riding.

Also, interestingly, apparently OW riders face the same foot arch fatigue and speed wobbles that we face on EUC, both able to be solved by proper carving.

 

Edited by houseofjob
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In my opinion (Bare in mind that i have much more experience with eucs)  you do trade stability to have the surf feel of the OW at least at this stage . This can be mitigated by proper carving but even on the videos of experienced OW riders i noticed some woble . I am not advocating against the OW (It is very fun) althogh i believe eucs are at a more advanced stage of its development .

My point is that the device itself and riders would benefit if OW had proper competition like there is on the euc market . I would love to see what kind of inovations gotway or nineboat could introduce on their version of self balaced esk8 . Future motion opened the market but now is time for other companies to join for the benefit of consumers .

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