Very cold weather operations.

[The Wizard]

My understanding is that the colder it gets outside, the quicker your battery cools down, further limiting your charge and thus total miles available.

At 10 to 20 degrees the battery losing charge very quickly.

Doesn't a large battery get hot and sometimes very hot during use/load?

Wouldn't this process Fully counter the cooling effect even in the coldest of temperatures? Even to the point of it not being a factor at all?

[LanghamP]

The battery and motor have to be under some stress in order for it to generate a lot of heat. Normal riding of just cruising along generates hardly any heat even on the hottest day (but going uphill fast does).

My experience is that once the battery is ambient temperature of around 25 degrees or less, then that's it; pack it up and go home.

[The Wizard]

Ok. Thank you. Just to be clear...

I know the Motor does not get hot at all. And neighter was I thinking it's heat helps the battery stay warmer.

But JUST the battery loading internally alone does not get warm enough to fight off the external wind chill effect? Directly inside the battery, not the outside componates or shell.

Most large batteries get dam hot?

[meepmeepmayer]

Going towards freezing (0°C), it will damage the batteries if they get recharged (which happens during riding on every little braking), so that's when you shouldn't ride (and the Ninebot One Z, for example, switches off for this reason if the battery gets too cold - 5°C I think).

With regular riding at around freezing temps, the battery cools off but stays warm enough to work until it's empty anyways. But you notice the reduced range, up to 20%, from the cooling off. The power draw isn't enough to keep the temp high enough, regular riding just isn't that taxing. It may be different going up hills all the time.

If you stop and let the wheel cool out then, it may be too cold to continue riding.

I don't think the batteries get too hot in general. They're not very big after all, 2 or 3 layers of cells with air between them and wrapped in a foil, not exactly a heat sink. It's not like a massive car battery or something like this.

[The Wizard]

Ok. That's good. I think that'll do it.

The cut out possibilities of riding when an euc is cold are alittle scary but who's gonna do that.

Still can't ride mine. Probably never again. But I am pondering building a custom seat for my now very very lonely dearly beloved nb1 c+.

Torn posterior Sacreillic Joint Ligament.

Be safe and be careful out there. 🙃

[Josiah]

Any thoughts guys on how if any the cold weather would affect the battery performance? 20° F here in Denver today.  And might get a lot colder.  I’m guessing if you keep it in a frozen garage that would not be ideal.

[Freeforester]

2 minutes ago, Josiah said:

Any thoughts guys on how if any the cold weather would affect the battery performance? 20° F here in Denver today.  And might get a lot colder.  I’m guessing if you keep it in a frozen garage that would not be ideal.

Don’t do that, or you’ll shorten the battery life considerably at the least. My emtb, e scoter and wheels are all parked up in a well insulated and easily heated room in my garage at the moment, along with batteries for my electric chainsaw etc. Treat your wheel kindly and with warmth, as you’d like to be treated yourself! A frost stat heater of some sorts and insulation are friends for your valued wheel/PEV. Even an electric blanket set on low would do.

[Tawpie]

Your batteries are likely rated for a minimum storage temperature of -4C -4F, so if it ever gets below freezing in your garage bring them inside.

DO NOT EVER charge a battery that is actually frozen. Google can tell you 'why'!

When the batteries are cold, they lose capacity so your range will go down (quite a bit), and they can't deliver current as rapidly so you don't want to be playing chicken in traffic.

If you want to ride in 20F it certainly can be done... I ride at 0F BUT. I start with the wheel in the house and at room temperature so everything is nice and warm. Then I run out, ride, and bring it back in the house before it gets too cold again (riding keeps it warmish). I let it sit and dry vertically and point a fan on it (condensation avoidance) for a few hours and then I charge. So far, no fires and batteries seem ok!

[edit: gol darn units]

Edited December 16, 2022 by Tawpie
should be °F!

[Hellkitten]

I’ve ridden in winter in Toronto Canada and it gets very cold here. I do as @Tawpiedoes. Most of the winter warriors here keep their wheels on while stopped and hanging out. Let your batteries warm up before charging. 

[RagingGrandpa]

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

you’ll shorten the battery life considerably at the least

Storage as low as -20°C is perfectly fine for storing cells.
We had a good time going through a paper on that recently...

And more discussion below:

On 9/27/2022 at 9:57 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

The cells are rated for long-term storage at -20°C / -4°F, and intermittent exposure to -40.
Don't charge or discharge them at those temperatures... but storage, yes.

Bigger issue is moisture: the answer is to make the storage room a slightly higher temperature than the outside air. Ideas here.

[winterwheel]

It was around -35c with fairly strong breeze last couple of morning commutes. Yesterday (the first day of these temps) the S-18 kicked me off after a couple of kms on the way to work.

Thinking that the very cold air streaming through the very exposed S-18 wheel at 30-50kmh be the issue, I tried riding very slowly (12-15kmh) the rest of the way... and I made it. 

Following up on that, before going home again I threw a transparent garbage bag over it, modified to just not get in the way of the pedals or wheel. Idea being, just keep the wind out of the wheel.

With this in place I rode normally home last night, and again back to work this morning, wheel didn't complain, rode at normal speeds.

My takeaway from this is that if you can keep the wind out of the wheel you'll be good to go. My old ACM was a great winter wheel because everything was enclosed. S-18 and most if not all newer wheels have everything exposed to the elements. Simple remediation may be needed for ultra-cold riding in those cases.

 

[Tawpie]

I was wondering how you'd fare in the current conditions! Good advice on the bag. S22 monitors the battery temperature and reduces your speed limit when it's cold, I honestly wouldn't expect it to allow travel at -35C.

[winterwheel]

On 12/15/2022 at 12:30 PM, Tawpie said:

I start with the wheel in the house and at room temperature so everything is nice and warm. Then I run out, ride, and bring it back in the house before it gets too cold again (riding keeps it warmish). I let it sit and dry vertically and point a fan on it (condensation avoidance) for a few hours and then I charge.

This is pretty much my process as well. I also plug the wheel in for a while before heading out to get a little pre-ride heat into the battery. I don't do the fan part.

[Seba]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:22 PM, winterwheel said:

It was around -35c with fairly strong breeze last couple of morning commutes. Yesterday (the first day of these temps) the S-18 kicked me off after a couple of kms on the way to work.

Thinking that the very cold air streaming through the very exposed S-18 wheel at 30-50kmh be the issue, I tried riding very slowly (12-15kmh) the rest of the way... and I made it. 

LG M50 was originally rated at max. 1.45 A @ -20..5 °C (-4..41 °F) and only 0.97 A @ -30..-20 °C (-22..-4 °F). Newer M50T and M50LT are rated at max. 2.4 A @ -20..10 °C (-4..50 °F). What is interesting, it explicitly disallow operation below -20 °C (-4 °F). As S18 battery is configured as 3P, below 10 °C it can only output 7.2 A, which translates into 600 W of power. I assume that as the battery cooled down, at some moment it was unable to deliver power required to keep you balanced during normal ride.

[winterwheel]

I'll end my comments here by saying now that I've figured out how to keep the S-18 running at very low temperatures it is my favorite winter wheel. I like the combination of having suspension (winter riding can be very bumpy at times) and lighter weight. Also that it is a relatively inexpensive wheel by today's standards, so I don't mind too much the giving it daily winter abuse. We'll see how long it lasts, but I'm optimistic right now.      

[null]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:22 PM, winterwheel said:

My takeaway from this is that if you can keep the wind out of the wheel you'll be good to go. My old ACM was a great winter wheel because everything was enclosed. S-18 and most if not all newer wheels have everything exposed to the elements. Simple remediation may be needed for ultra-cold riding in those cases.

A slight unearthing of the topic: I'd like to add that I'm not convinced metal battery casings are great for winter temperatures, it will cool them down yet a step faster and exacerbate the risk of condensation. I've been pondering this since receiving my Commander pro, and even the fact that the battery casings are plastic on one side (inner) and alloy on the outside bugs me because the cells temperature will be different. Considering wrapping it in neoprene, but it's a hassle and the EUC is already wide enough as is.

What was your approach for the S18 finally?

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, null said:

A slight unearthing of the topic: I'd like to add that I'm not convinced metal battery casings are great for winter temperatures, it will cool them down yet a step faster and exacerbate the risk of condensation. I've been pondering this since receiving my Commander pro, and even the fact that the battery casings are plastic on one side (inner) and alloy on the outside bugs me because the cells temperature will be different. Considering wrapping it in neoprene, but it's a hassle and the EUC is already wide enough as is.

What was your approach for the S18 finally?

Yes the batteries on my S22 gets cold pretty fast, when any temp sensor shows 5C the wheel will gradually start to throttle top speed (most likely to counter hard Regen braking), riding my S22 in winter I believe the lowest I saw any temp sensor was about 1C.

Funnily enough many people without temp sensors are riding their wheels happily not knowing their cell temps at high speeds and doing hard braking.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Rawnei

[Funky]

I and my dad are riding whole year round. Be +35C or be -25C = We ride. (More correctly we commute to work.)

Luckily our commute is around 3km long, so we don't really care about rest. We also got train in middle of that 3km, so battery can't really get that cold that fast from room temp.

At least we haven't had any problems. "Yet.."

Only thing i personally hate is - when you bring the wheel inside - it's wheel well, outer case stays wet for quite some time.. As all packed snow slowly melts away. While wheel is parked in shower. Same thing in workplace.. Over 6 hours it isn't even dry yet.

 

That's why i want the wheels to be waterproof as much as possible! Yes we haven't had any problems, but still... Back in my mind i know this is BAD!

Edited November 30, 2023 by Funky

[null]

29 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Funnily enough many people without temp sensors are riding their wheels happily not knowing their cell temps at high speeds and doing hard braking.

Lucky for them it turns out OK most of the time, but it should still put wear on the cells. Probably they dont notice range change because 10% is hard to really notice and many people also just dont ride that far and / or change their EUCs frequently.. In any case I want to avoid unnecessary wear as much as possible, also because of the risk of a cell dying and potential risk of fire. (Hence being skeptical regarding aluminium casings and condensation)

21 minutes ago, Funky said:

That's why i want the wheels to be waterproof as much as possible! Yes we haven't had any problems, but still... Back in my mind i know this is BAD!

Absolutely, lucky the 18XL is probably the best "weather resistant" wheel ever  Even the inside is made so that water ingress both stay away from the batteries and drip out from the bottom. (If you worry about the snow stuck in the wheel well you could maybe make a sort of "brush" that could be fastened to the tire and rolled up and through the well.)

I just got the EBCP because bang for the bucks was very good, but the weather question bugs me (Batteries in particular, the rest is less important).

Edited November 30, 2023 by null

[Rawnei]

7 minutes ago, null said:

Lucky for them it turns out OK most of the time, but it should still put wear on the cells. Probably they dont notice range change because 10% is hard to really notice and many people also just dont ride that far and / or change their EUCs frequently.. In any case I want to avoid unnecessary wear as much as possible, also because of the risk of a cell dying and potential risk of fire. (Hence being skeptical regarding aluminium casings and condensation)

And it doesn't help that the controller is separated in it's own compartment nowadays meaning no hot air coming from the controller will circulate around batteries, I don't think we're going back to plastic boxes so the solution from the manufacturers would have to be better insulation but 1) Probably will not happen because they are manufactured were there are no such extreme climates 2) What would the reverse effect be in hot climate if the batteries had hot insulation?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Rawnei

[null]

1) 2) indeed..
Maybe a return of the EUC bodyguards would be a help for us with cold weather.

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, null said:

1) 2) indeed..
Maybe a return of the EUC bodyguards would be a help for us with cold weather.

Unfortunately that wouldn't help inside the wheel well where it gets very cold, on the sides you have pads and legs protecting, in the front and back you can put stuff to help, but inside can't protect.

[Cerbera]

In the UK, where our power companies are free to exploit the populace to whatever degree they like, and all seem to be in collusion with each other and the 'regulator' to keep prices sky high all the time, it is no longer practical to heat the whole house, rather than just the 1 room you spend most time in, so I do worry about my wheel(s) sitting downstairs in these near freezing temps. I have a small oil heater down there which heats the area around the wheels just a bit to something very low like 5C or so, which I boost a bit when I need to charge...

Perhaps it's because I don't usually go anywhere near the top of its speed range, but I find the Master's performance doesn't really change for me in cold weather. It still seems to give me power at the same rate as in warmer months and I don't notice much additional sag or loss of range, although the latter is probably only because the range has always been 10 times more than I ever need.

I do live on quite a steep drive though, so I turn the wheel on for 10 mins while I am ATGATTing to make sure it is up to a bit of regen as soon as we get out the gate...

[null]

6 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Unfortunately that wouldn't help inside the wheel well where it gets very cold, on the sides you have pads and legs protecting, in the front and back you can put stuff to help, but inside can't protect.

True, in most cases the casing is metal towards the wheel as well, leaving little room for insulation. (not to talk of sliders and such). The case of the CP is a bit particular with alloy only toward the exterior, and me not using pads. Very specific all in all 😅

@Cerbera: At least the cold room is great for storage, and when getting back from could outside the EUCs won't risk as much condensation. The "issue" would eventually be temp for charging as you mentioned. You also dont get the "warm" EUC when going out, but again less risk of condensation..

[Cerbera]

@null Ah yes, I forgot to mention that 1 advantage of a cold house - every cloud hey ? 

 

I will say this about Winter riding - things are orders of magnitude more pleasant if you remember to put your gloves and lycra balaclava / helmet liner on a radiator first, and on REALLY cold days I am not above getting a hairdryer down the legs of my riding pantaloons to get those all toasty as well ! If you start off extra warm, I find it's easier to hold on to that heat for the whole ride...

Also, big fan of those dual layer coats you can get - inner fleecy warm liner fits under body protector, and weatherproof lighter layer works well over the top...