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szaroczek

KingSong KS16C - broken axis - "Electricunicycles" manipulation

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Posted (edited)

Hello, everybody. Hereby I bring you a highly distressing, devastating and discouraging to me case of my KS16C electric unicycle failure.
I bought this unit as a used one from the former owner who had previously bought it directly from Polish KingSong distributor "Electricunicycle" < https://www.electricunicycles.eu/ >. The unit featured a two year warranty expiring with November, 8th, 2019. According to the declaration of the former owner it was also supposed to feature the new, stronger, 12 mm, type of axis rather than the old one, 10 mm which was notorious for its frequent cases of breaking. The wheel bore visible signs of use but was operating properly. Additionally, to double check, I contacted by email "Electricunicycles" to confirm the type of axis my wheel had originally installed in it and I was confirmed it was supposed to be the new, stronger axis.


After few dozens of kilometers I made with it one of the pedal supporters began to rub against the engine's cover which obviously indicated the bend or breaking of the car's axis.

I contacted the original Polish distributor "Electricunicycles" by email with a warranty claim as well as the explanation I bought the wheel from their former client simultaneously requesting ascribing the wheel to my account. This time, however, I did not receive any response. After few days I reiterated my email - with no response. Since this bizarre business entity does not render available any company phone number,  over the next month I was forced to issue dozens of emails sent to all three of their email addresses available on their web-site:

- < sklep@elektrycznemonocykle.pl >,

- < biuro@elektrycznemonocykle.pl >,

- < serwis@elektrycznemonocykle.pl >,

unfortunately with no effect. I also sent a message on their Facebook profile - no result. I even sent a physical certified letter - no answer.Being desperate, I opened a thread on Polish only electric monocycle forum "Ecojazda" < https://forum.ecojazda.pl/ > complaining on the total lack of contact with this Polish KingSong distributor (here is the link to the this thread: < https://forum.ecojazda.pl/index.php/start/monocykle-elektryczne/252-elektryczne-monocykle-brak-kontaktu?limitstart=0 >) and amazingly I got many responses from other annoyed "Electricunicycles" customers experiencing exactly the same problem.

Only after the intense activity on the mentioned forum thread the "Electricunicycle" eventually responded and sent me a courier to bring my monocycle to their service. Yet, before I handed the wheel over I opened it and measured the axis - to my dismay it was an old, faulty, 10 mm axis!

 

The warranty service, after receiving my unite and examining it, issued the "service report" concluding that "the car was misused" and for this reason my "warranty claim was dismissed". The reasons for this statement was there were signs "of extensive use on the wheel body as well as on the pedals". To get my wheel back I was demanded to cover costs of the shipment of the wheel to and from the service, which of course I bore.

 

In conclusion to the above here are my objectives:


1. There was absolute lack of contact with the Polish KingSong distributor "Electricunicycles" when it came to the warranty claim for over a month; it was established only after pressure from the Polish electric unicycle forum "Ecojazda" arisen to which users I am deeply grateful for their participating in this thread related to my case and supporting me.

2. I absolutely disagree with the accusation of my wheel being misused; I was not driving nails into any plank with it nor was I casting it as a boat anchor into some lake's depths. The wheel was being ridden in a normal manner with normal, seldom cases of collapses which, as I am sure is pretty obvious to all wheel riders, is a normal and unavoidable aspect of its use; I do not believe there is any electric unicycle user who never fell off it, nor do I believe there is any wheel in the world "extensively" used for thousands of kilometers with no signs of use on it, like cracks or scratches on its body and pedals - watch your own wheels!

3. The axis problem in KingSong KS16 monocycles is notorious; there are unnaturally multiple amount of registered cases of them being broken:

4. The KingSong manufacturer itself acknowledged the weak axis case by redesigning and replacing it with a thicker and stronger one being installed in subsequent releases of this KS16 models.

5. I made some research and I found out similar axis problems are not to be found in monocycles of other brands such as for example: Gotway or Inmotion.

6. Another official Polish KingSong distributor < https://eunicycles.eu/en/ > in any KS16 axis problem case unconditionally carries out a free warranty repair replacing the old, weaker, broken axis with a new, redesigned, stronger one. 

7. Despite of the "Electircunicycles", the original Polish vendor and guarantor of my wheel, confirmation, the axis in my car was of an old, thinner, 10 mm, faulty type rather than the new, 12 mm one.

8. I weigh 87 kg (I believe it is something around 191 lb...)

 

 

Right now I am seriously embittered because in the light of the above I believe I am being manipulated by the Polish KingSong distributor, "Electricunicycle", in an attempt to avoid their warranty responsibility in relation to my KingSong KS16C axis problem.

 

I wonder if any of you might possibly have any ideas or suggestion what I should be doing right now in this situation to have my car repaired as a warranty claim? Be grateful for any clues.

 

Regards

 

 

P.S.

In the attachment:

- the original "service report" after examining of my wheel by the "Electricunicycle",

- the original invoice for my KS16C I received with it from the former owner. (... didn't go, will try later)

 

Edited by szaroczek
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As I have already mentioned, my axle on KS16B was replaced by another Polish distributor (eunicycles.eu) without any questions asked.

Also, as far as I know, the factory release of a thicker, stronger axle was the result of problems experienced by heavier riders.

It would be great if KS Official Media Representative provided some opinion/support here.

@US69 Would you be so kind and comment on the matter?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, hal2000 said:

As I have already mentioned, my axle on KS16B was replaced by another Polish distributor (eunicycles.eu) without any questions asked.

Also, as far as I know, the factory release of a thicker, stronger axle was the result of problems experienced by heavier riders.

It would be great if KS Official Media Representative provided some opinion/support here.

@US69 Would you be so kind and comment on the matter?

Sorry, please....

What should i please say? As on all older models that where released at about 2016 there have been some problems sometimes with the axles. Had happen on Ks14c, Ks16b...GW Acm, Msuper.....all wheels from that period had -some seldom- bad experience with their axles.

So thats why all Wheel Producers made progress and made their axles on their next models bigger.

But...again Sorry...i cant comment on any concrete axle failure, while there HAVE been also few cases, where the wheel might be abused!

I dont say this was the case here! Please dont get me wrong!

There is always 2 side of the story...so i would prefer to be left out here!

Anyone can contact me anytime about his seller experience...and you can be sure these stories found there way to KS.

But its hard for me to intervene here....i dont know that much. Please understand!

 

Edited by US69
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Might not be the answer the 2nd hand buyer is looking for, but then again it is far from the same as the answer is wrong.

This is problem with buying and selling 2nd hand products. The 2nd hard buyer buy as is and can have a hard time claiming warranty as you never really know exactly how product has been used or history of it.

Still think you gave a right answer @US69 now this is also why I posted yesterday why I think @Jason McNeil offer for helping with shipping cost...in US for wheels he sold. Look up his post yourself. It might not settle all cases, but it show a level of trust at least. And circulate wheels and build up customer database.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Unventor said:

Might not be the answer the 2nd hand buyer is looking for, but then again it is far from the same as the answer is wrong.

Sure this is not the answer any 2nd Hand buyer is Looking for! I am really unhappy with the experience he had!

But perhaps can anybody explain me what else should i do then anwer this honestly and realistic as it is?

I am "just the guy" doing social media...in NO WAY i have any authority to decide for or advise ANY KS Reseller. I also can't not grant any parts or repairs...

I am already leaning "wide out the window" when i help People to reset their KS Wheel using the "engeneer" app, as already this can be seen as going inbetween the buyer-seller relationship and/or warranty and can fall back heavily on me if anything goes wrong.

But here? The decision if or if not a axle (or any other part) is replaced by warranty or not, is a decision, that absolutly relys on the specific re-seller and how the condition of wheel/pedals/pedalarm is. 

@Smoother 's advise is perhaps the absolut best idea! The seller EUunicycles,eu (Kingsong.pl) aka Rychard is a totally helpful guy and so that should be the easiest and most stressless way out of the Situation, as he is one of the few who can provide spare axles!

For the actual seller and warranty contact here: Electricunicycles.eu  (dont mix them up with Richard/Kingsong.pl, please!),  i can say that this is not the first customer complain About Long or no answer time and bad warranty Service and again: This will find it's way to Kingsong….

So i am really Sorry for the experience and Feelings szaroczek has, but unfortunatly i have no idea how to help further!

 

 

 

 

Edited by US69
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49 minutes ago, US69 said:

Sure this is not the answer any 2nd Hand buyer is Looking for! I am really unhappy with the experience he had!

But perhaps can anybody explain me what else should i do then anwer this honestly and realistic as it is?

I am "just the guy" doing social media...in NO WAY i have any authority to decide for or advise ANY KS Reseller. I also can't not grant any parts or repairs...

I am already leaning "wide out the window" when i help People to reset their KS Wheel using the "engeneer" app, as already this can be seen as going inbetween the buyer-seller relationship and/or warranty and can fall back heavily on me if anything goes wrong.

But here? The decision if or if not a axle (or any other part) is replaced by warranty or not, is a decision, that absolutly relys on the specific re-seller and how the condition of wheel/pedals/pedalarm is. 

@Smoother 's advise is perhaps the absolut best idea! The seller EUunicycles,eu (Kingsong.pl) aka Rychard is a totally helpful guy and so that should be the easiest and most stressless way out of the Situation, as he is one of the few who can provide spare axles!

For the actual seller and warranty contact here: Electricunicycles.eu  (dont mix them up with Richard/Kingsong.pl, please!),  i can say that this is not the first customer complain About Long or no answer time and bad warranty Service and again: This will find it's way to Kingsong….

So i am really Sorry for the experience and Feelings szaroczek has, but unfortunatly i have no idea how to help further!

I think you misread me, I think you gave the only answer to give in your position. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Unventor said:

this is also why I posted yesterday why I think @Jason McNeil offer for helping with shipping cost...in US for wheels he sold. Look up his post yourself. It might not settle all cases, but it show a level of trust at least. And circulate wheels and build up customer database.

This is a tough case, King Song stopped supplying the 16B motors almost two years ago, they're completely unobtainable now. If KS Poland doesn't have these old motors (we don't), there's not a lot that can be done. To convert the 16B into a 16S is quite involved: changing the battery connectors from the XT60 to the MT60, control-board swap & motor. The cumulative price to perform the conversion with parts, labour, shipping is pretty close to a new 16S. 

Maybe you can request to trade-in the 16B to a 16S for a decent discount to amicably resolve the dispute?  

Edited by Jason McNeil
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2 hours ago, US69 said:

Sure this is not the answer any 2nd Hand buyer is Looking for! I am really unhappy with the experience he had!

But perhaps can anybody explain me what else should i do then anwer this honestly and realistic as it is?

I am "just the guy" doing social media...in NO WAY i have any authority to decide for or advise ANY KS Reseller. I also can't not grant any parts or repairs...

I am already leaning "wide out the window" when i help People to reset their KS Wheel using the "engeneer" app, as already this can be seen as going inbetween the buyer-seller relationship and/or warranty and can fall back heavily on me if anything goes wrong.

But here? The decision if or if not a axle (or any other part) is replaced by warranty or not, is a decision, that absolutly relys on the specific re-seller and how the condition of wheel/pedals/pedalarm is. 

@Smoother 's advise is perhaps the absolut best idea! The seller EUunicycles,eu (Kingsong.pl) aka Rychard is a totally helpful guy and so that should be the easiest and most stressless way out of the Situation, as he is one of the few who can provide spare axles!

For the actual seller and warranty contact here: Electricunicycles.eu  (dont mix them up with Richard/Kingsong.pl, please!),  i can say that this is not the first customer complain About Long or no answer time and bad warranty Service and again: This will find it's way to Kingsong….

So i am really Sorry for the experience and Feelings szaroczek has, but unfortunatly i have no idea how to help further!

27

@US69 Thanks for being involved and commenting on the matter. I think however that you slightly misread me or I was not precise enough. It was not my intention to mediate in any way between the customer and the dealer.

 I was (and still am) just interested whether there is an acknowledgement from Kingsong that the thinner axle was not strong enough to hold the weight of some heavier riders. As far as I remember the documentation for my KS16B stated the limit of the maximum load of 120 kg which I never exceeded but sometimes was getting close to it.

I would assume that implicit acknowledgement exists since the replacement part was produced and then included as standard on later models (my KS16S had never any problems with my weight at all).

Regarding the dispute, I think that a material specialist should be able to assess whether the damage was a result of premature tear and wear or a result of a serious accident/sudden abuse. In the case of the former, I would suggest @szaroczek to follow the matter for the benefit of the community. I understand that there is a certain risk involved in buying used items but that should not strip customers of their rights. 

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41 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

This is a tough case, King Song stopped supplying the 16B motors almost two years ago, they're completely unobtainable now. If KS Poland doesn't have these old motors (we don't), there's not a lot that can be done. To convert the 16B into a 16S is quite involved: changing the battery connectors from the XT60 to the MT60, control-board swap & motor. The cumulative price to perform the conversion with parts, labour, shipping is pretty close to a new 16S. 

Maybe you can request to trade-in the 16B to a 16S for a decent discount to amicably resolve the dispute?  

I have never tinkered with the wheel internals (and I am not planning to) so forgive my potential ignorance but it was my understanding that the problem could be resolved by replacing the axle alone... Is it an integral part of the motor then?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, hal2000 said:

I have never tinkered with the wheel internals (and I am not planning to) so forgive my potential ignorance but it was my understanding that the problem could be resolved by replacing the axle alone... Is it an integral part of the motor then?

I can answer that one seeing as I have a motor completely torn down right now.

The axle is a hard contoured steel shaft pressed very tightly into the hub of the wheel, with a woodruf key to stop the two from spinning independently.  replacing the axle requires dismantling the motor and removing the 8 wires running through the axle; 5 for the Hall effect sensor, and 3 for the motor itself.  This requires unsoldering all of them and pulling them throught the axle.  The axle must be pressed out with a hydraulic press as it is VERY tight.  Then the new one has to be pressed in, while carefully aligning the woodruf key.  Then the cables have to be carefully threaded into the new axle without shredding the protective sheaths on sharp edges.  All 8 wires can now be re-soldered (hopefully in the same location).  Then the motor can be reassembled and put back in the shell.  It's not particularly difficult, but its involved and you need to get a mechanic with a hydraulic press.  I wouldn't recommend it if you're not mechanically inclined.  Just getting the typical wheel apart to get the motor out is, in itself, a huge PITA.

THE PROBLEM IS...King Song can't/wont supply that axle any more, and the new. stronger, axle doesn't fit in the old motor as it has a much smaller diameter to the main shaft, so it absolutely wont mount in the old motor.

Like I said Ryszard at eunucycles.eu has a machinist who makes a good axle out of two axles (one old style and one new style).  He's the only one I know of who has bothered to take on this problem.  And that is subject to him being able to continue to get new axles from King Song; something he reported as being difficult to do.

Below: Motor armature(?) both axles (old and new) displaying woodruf key and slot in armature for said key.  Note different thickness of axles in the middle. Also note Hall effect sensor circuit board with 5 (missing) wire connection points (+, -, and three sensor connections; one for each phase of the motor)

EDIT: the old (fatter) axle in this picture is broken.  The end where the wires pass through is cracked, but you can't see it in this picture.  @Rehab1 sent me a replacement from his 14c that got drowned after only a few hours of use, but alarmingly, it was bent in the same, weak, area, so I couldn't use it.  I have it knocking around somewhere.  It will probably end up with Ryszard in Poland to make another Frankenaxle for someone else.

IMG_0843.JPG

Edited by Smoother
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@Smoother That was hugely insightful. Many thanks!

Scrutinizing the whole design, the shape, size and length of the axle, its positioning and mounting details I can't really imagine how one could damage it in a way other than on purpose using specialized tools or subjecting it to a significant weight over a long period of time. What I mean by that is that everyday use (even abusive and full of accidents) does not generate enough force to cause symmetrical damage to the axle...

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, hal2000 said:

@Smoother That was hugely insightful. Many thanks!

Scrutinizing the whole design, the shape, size and length of the axle, its positioning and mounting details I can't really imagine how one could damage it in a way other than on purpose using specialized tools or subjecting it to a significant weight over a long period of time. What I mean by that is that everyday use (even abusive and full of accidents) does not generate enough force to cause symmetrical damage to the axle...

Au contraire , mon amie.  It's very easy to break them and here's why:

1.  The axle is heavily compromised on the side where the wires enter.  So much meat is bored out that the remainder is only 1mm thick as measured by @Rehab1

2. The way the ends are milled flat in order not to spin in the pedal arms seriously compromises strength and leads to the 1mm mentioned in the first point.

3.  The milling of the flat ends in a sharp 90 degree interface with the body of the axle.  It has been known for decades that in order not to concentrate forces in an area like this, a gradual/rounded interface is required.  I reference the break up of ww2 Liberty ships with square hatches for the cargo holds, and the square windows on the British Comet, the first commercial jet liner.  Both these square interfaces led to catastrophic losses of equipment and life.  Everybody learned from this, except the Chinese apparently.

4.  All the above could have been helped by making the axle ends fatter overall thereby allowing considerably more "meat" in the compromised end.

5. There are other ways of interfacing axles and pedal holders that do not include removing metal and strength. See Gotway.

6. The pedal arm is a massive leaver with sometime all of the riders weight bearing down on it trying to bend the axle end away from true. Doubly or trippley so, if the rider is jumping down off a curb, or riding over a bump  Every effort should go into the design to prevent this from happening.

7. quoting you: "subjecting it to a significant weight over a long period of time" is exactly what riding an EUC does.

8. @Rehab1 s axle was only a few riding hours old.  Then it got flooded and parted out. Are you really accusing him of deliberately trying to destroy this almost new axle, then dismantling the motor and paying someone to press it out of the motor ( at a time when he was in fear of losing the use of his right arm and his livelihood due to his big accident) then paying to have it shipped to me from the US?  What reason would he have for that?  I babied my axle and it still broke.  Many others have reported the same.  Are you really accusing all us of deliberately destroying our machines which we paid so much money for?  All of us?  Just on this type of wheel/axle?  That's one mighty, international, nonsensical, destructive conspiracy. :facepalm:

@hal2000 I hope you find your imagination suitably updated.

Edited by Smoother
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@Smoother I think that you may be  proving me right rather than wrong but just to clarify:

I was trying to say that

1) the axle is fragile and prone to damage when "it is subjected to a signifiacnt weight over a long period of time" ("and this is exactly what riding an EUC does" ;)

2) the axle is not prone to damage due to abusive and full of accidents usage (I EXCLUDE here the everyday application of the weight of the rider; I have in mind incidents like the rider falling off the wheel and the wheel hitting a wall/fence/tree or falling/tumbling down the slope/cliff ;) Usually the shell cracks, batteries get loose, handle breaks etc. but since the rider is absent, weight is low and the axle is quite hidden and protected it does not suffer...

BUT maybe all the design features you've mentioned point at the fact that the axle is prone to damage in both abovementioned circumstances [1) and 2)].

I will appreciate your opinion on this. Cheers!

 

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Riding seems to be the most likely cause, but we cannot determine what forces the pedals transmit to the axle when they strike something during a tumble.  Be that as it may.  There are a significantly higher number of reported cracked axles of this type than any other.  And since all wheels are ridden by riders of varying weight, varying skills, and subjecting them all the various accidents, the fact that this axle design continues to lead the failure table and always in the same way, indicates a design that is poor in general and inferior to others.

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Thank you all for any of your thoughts and reflections on my case presented above. However, at this point I would like to make some more specific analysis and particularly explore and bring to your attention two interesting and to my belief very telling points. Here they are:

 

1. To begin with, not so long ago identical axes problem with KingSong cars were handled properly by both the KingSong manufacturer as well as by "Electricunicycles" < https://www.electricunicycles.eu/ > its Polish retailer and guarantor, and both entrepreneurs were taking right, straightforward and fair responsibility for those axis failures conducting warranty repairs. Suddenly, I suppose because such cases multiplied, they have changed their tactics and started rejecting warranty claims resorting to finding comfortable, yet dubious and hard to prove reasons for which the KS wheels' axes break other than their poor technical design. However, the very fact the here discussed KS axes cases became so frequent obviously made it a clear indication and an obvious proof the fault here is on the producer party. Now, lets see what usually happens in similar cases concerning other respectable and fair companies, like for example some automobile companies. Well, in such circumstances, as we all know, such companies are preparing, organizing and undertaking product recalls by replacing the faulty part or repairing the malfunction in ALL the units of the suspicious batch, regardless of whether the breakdown followed or not, FOR FREE! Now, in KS axes case, especially recently, both the companies are doing something EXACTLY OPPOSITE - they are REJECTING ALL THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES!!! That is really so embarrassing and degrading, indeed! That also suggests I am just and unlucky guy having experiencing this axis problem in a wrong time and just too late, after both the mentioned companies had changed their strategy, and that is exactly not fair and wrong on the part of both KingSong manufacturer and "Electricunicycles". At the top of this, remember: KingSong manufacturer HAS REDESIGNED the axes they used to install in their wheels by which they OPENLY RECOGNIZED AND ACKNOWLEDGED the factory fault in its design. Also do not forget, my KS16C features THE OLD, weak type of the axis, despite of the "Electricunicycles" declaration that is has a NEW type installed in it, which circumstance would undoubtedly change the whole flavor and perception of this case and render my case weak enough not to worthy of making a deal of warranty claim, wouldn't it?

 

To conclude this paragraph and its essence I believe there is a reasonable way to handle this KingSong monocycle axes case by its manufacturer as well as their pathetic Polish dealer "Electricunicycles" which would probably save their faces and at the same time would not jeopardize their financial interests and stability by finding some golden mean by means of some reasonable compromise. And that is, instead of replacing ALL the former, thinner and weak axis in ALL their older monocycle units, just manage the cases when they got physically broken and replace them into new, stronger ones and this AT LEAST when it happened in a WARRANTY PERIOD of their use!!! The question, of course, remains whether KingSong manufacturer and "Electricunicycles" even care about saving their faces at all... I'm wondering if this analysis and logic make any sense to the general international electric unicycle's public...?

 

2. At the top of the above argument which, in my humble opinion, is paramount for proper recognizing and judging my case, there is actually one more minor, yet quite meaningful and apparently strongly discrediting both KingSong manufacturer as well as their Polish dealer "Electricunicycles" circumstance. As @Smoother mentioned in his post above, there is another official Polish KingSong dealer operating in this country, "Eunicycles" < https://eunicycles.eu/en/ > run by Mr. Ryszard. Everybody concerned knows that for some mysterious reason that business entity UP UNTIL NOW IS RECOGNIZING ALL unfortunate broken axes cases in ALL KS units, and more, which actually makes my point here, KingSong company IS STILL supplying him with the FREE axes as spare parts to its monocycles, by this again ACKNOWLEDGING their responsibility for the problems KS owners do experience in this regards! That is suspiciously strange and queer, isn't it...? So, why in relation to one of the two Polish KingSong dealers, "Eunicycle", the manufacturer is taking responsibility for the bad axes and in relation to the other, "Electricunicycles", it is not? Here is the obvious answer: Ryszard, the owner of the second one, is a respectable, kind, helpful, responsible and clever businessman and he is willing to put some of his effort, knowledge and resources into handling his customers' problems and warranty claims, while the first one, "Electricunicycles" IS NOT! And in the case of this second one "Electricunicycles", in order to warranty-cover and repair the axes the Singsong producer was to replace the WHOLE ENGINE with the broken axis; Ryszard on the other hand, as @Smoother mentioned above, developed on his own account the way of replacing the axis itself and he himself takes financial costs of this not that easy to perform procedure in all his clients' warranty cases; so, in such a circumstance the KingSong is ready and willing to cooperate. Anyway, the bottom line of this circumstance here is, KingSong, by supplying its other Polish dealer, "Eunicycles", in free spare axes as replacements for broken ones in any warranty cases "Eunicycles" receives, is proving it up until now recognizes its responsibility for that problem.

 

In the light of the above, taking into account:

- my KS16C, apart of its broken axis, is in a very good technical condition,

- is it still covered by its dealer's two year warranty, which fact is already confirmed by "Electricunicycles" trader,

- it features the old, faulty axis, which actually broke,

I believe both, "Electricunicycles" as well as  KingSong, companies should take their responsibility for repairing my broken wheel in this particular case.

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Unfortunately you have jumped to a lot of conclusions in the above post. 

1.No one suggested that King Song supplies Ryszard new axles for free. If I remember my discussions with him from over a year ago I believe he said they supplied them reluctantly and they weren't free. I don't think even they can get them easily, separate from the motor.

2. the axles he gets are the wrong type and do not fit directly into the old motors.  He has to get a machinist to re-work them.

3. Even when my axle broke, over a year ago, the only available fix was a motor AND control board swap, a very expensive proposition, and I couldn't even get that from my seller.

4.  If I read @Jason McNeil correctly even these replacement motors and control boards have been unavailable for a while.

5. If you want Automobile style warranty work, buy an Automobile. These low budget Chinese manufacturers don't have the resources to do research and development right, what makes you think they care about warranty work?  Your are one person thousands of miles away on a different continent.  I don't think they lie in bed at night in fear of your law suit.

As I suggested before; just get over it.  You're driving yourself crazy trying to be in the right and trying to make it right.  It's not going to happen.  Do we feel for you? of course.  But you have to move on.  The solution you seek is not available anymore.  That ship has sailed, as they say.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

1.No one suggested that King Song supplies Ryszard new axles for free. If I remember my discussions with him from over a year ago I believe he said they supplied them reluctantly and they weren't free. I don't think even they can get them easily, separate from the motor.

I know he gets them FOR FREE!

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

2. the axles he gets are the wrong type and do not fit directly into the old motors.  He has to get a machinist to re-work them.

They ARE NOT. They fit right away, except you need to use a specialized press to get them off and back in. What DO NOT directly fit are pedal supporters and actually they should be replaced into new ones.

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

3. Even when my axle broke, over a year ago, the only available fix was a motor AND control board swap, a very expensive proposition, and I couldn't even get that from my seller.

The seller that sold my wheel used to replace the engine with the axis once it broke as a warranty claims in the past; they don't any more.

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

4.  If I read @Jason McNeil correctly even these replacement motors and control boards have been unavailable for a while.

I don't think this is any sort of argument here. If the seller or a manufacturer are not able to repair the defect in the warranty period they are supposed to replace the whole unit; I'm ready to this.

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

5. If you want Automobile style warranty work, buy an Automobile.

That was just an example and if you read properly my former post you would know I did not expect this. My suggestion there was much more reasonably; read the thing well before commenting.

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

These low budget Chinese manufacturers don't have the resources to do research and development right,

I think you don't know what you're talking about; you have no idea about their resources. By the way, I wonder if you have any clue how much do retailers pay for the wheels and in fact other stuff made in China! Nor you probably have an idea how much do the retailers earn on any product imported from China... Talk to experts, then speak.

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

what makes you think they care about warranty work

If cases multiply and there are many other complaints and there is mess on respectable international forums they sales may drop; that might matter to them, doesn't it...? I believe public opinion matters 

to them...

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

 

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I don't think they lie in bed at night in fear of your law suit.

They probably don't, but the "Electricunicycle" might... They are the legal guarantor of my wheel. 

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

You're driving yourself crazy trying to be in the right and trying to make it right.

I think this actually is what an individual should be doing when being mistreated by a stronger and not fair entity and I also believe a forum as this can help a lot what in fact many of you effectively do commenting on this issue.

34 minutes ago, Smoother said:

But you have to move on.  The solution you seek is not available anymore. 

Well, this is always the option. But you know, sometime there is also a matter of principle in an effort to make the world better and more just place to live for all of us. As someone of you have already noticed - this is for the benefit of all the community...

Edited by szaroczek

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Posted (edited)

Where is the imogee of someone washing their hands of something? oh this will do "unfollow"

Edited by Smoother

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2 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Where is the imogee of someone washing their hands of something? oh this will do "unfollow"

...?

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@szaroczek as I wrote yesterday you got the answer that was the only one you could get from @US69

You made a claim at the dealer and it got rejected for a 2nd hand purchase. Other dealers have giving insights, that you might not have when you bought the wheel. Nevertheless look at a product that have discontinue parts and dealers has been aware of this makes it very hard for any parties to make any goodwill comprise since they never dealt with you. I doubt many companies would make a different choice in a similar situation.

In the end of the day legal stuff comes into play, and here personally opinions are of little matter. 

22 hours ago, Smoother said:

@szaroczek

My advice to you: take a deep breath and let it go.  Just let it go.  You'll give yourself a heart attack at this rate.  Is it fair? NO.  But life isn't fair sometimes.

Or try to use @Jason McNeil advise to bread a discount deal or some sort of trade-in.

Or salvage what parts can be salvage and resell those to fund a new wheel. Shellparts, battery, control boards...pedals ect...problem being elder wheels it is always a choice to repair or scrap and the older the more frequently scrap becomes the choice.

I totally understand you might not agree from you above posts, but my point here is not looking back but looking forward to make the best of a bad situations with card you are dealt.

Situations like this is why I am unlikely to resell any items privately. Goes for my pc parts, cars, electronics and of course my wheels. So when I buy a new car I have always sold my car to the dealer. Other stuff I hold on to as back up or spare parts, until they are totally put dated.

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8 hours ago, hal2000 said:

and still am) just interested whether there is an acknowledgement from Kingsong that the thinner axle was not strong enough to hold the weight of some heavier riders. As far as I remember the documentation for my KS16B stated the limit of the maximum load of 120 kg which I never exceeded but sometimes was getting close to it.

So i can say that there is no “general acknowledgement “ that the 16B axle was not strong enough ....and so there is anyhow no “general replacement made” in case of a failure AND there never was. This was always a one on one decision depending on condition of the wheel  AND depending on the service/obligingness of the re-seller.

Also i highly disagree with the opinion “because on the next model the axle was made stronger, KS has made ““a confession““ that the axle in fact was to thin”. If something like this would be an valid argument chain - now i overdraw it a bit - every 16b/c owner could go and demand a KS16S....which got a thicker axle, a stronger board, a stronger motor, stronger pedals and beside the outside shell was a complete new development. With that argument chain every producer would stop making their products better as „progress would be a confession to former faults“

The KS16 is/was the most selling KS Euc ever....if there would have been a serious „general problem” with any kind of part... the forum here would be full of complains, which it absolutly isnt. Sure there have been reports of breaking axles, but monitoring the forum since 4 years these are not more than the failure rate as for example the GW ACM, where i also experienced a „axle break“ myself. Its in the nature of ALL forums...

 Again: i am sorry for the problems that occure to our new forum member here, and i would love if electricunicycles.eu would find a solution for the problem! 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Unventor said:

You made a claim at the dealer and it got rejected for a 2nd hand purchase

Now, that is COMPLETELY wrong! And I have no bloody idea where you did get this conviction from! My general warranty rights to the vehicle in question have already been confirmed by "Electricunicycles" and the unit is already ascribed to my account on their web-page.

4 hours ago, US69 said:

The KS16 is/was the most selling KS Euc ever....if there would have been a serious „general problem” with any kind of part... the forum here would be full of complains, which it absolutly isnt. Sure there have been reports of breaking axles, but monitoring the forum since 4 years these are not more than the failure rate as for example the GW ACM, where i also experienced a „axle break“ myself.

Well, @US69, it shows some others, like for example @Smoother, dare to disagree with this conviction of yours. In truth I believe you belong to minority here, which, however could be understandable assuming your role and possition you hold here; look below:

7 hours ago, Smoother said:

the fact that this axle design continues to lead the failure table and always in the same way, indicates a design that is poor in general and inferior to others.

 

4 hours ago, US69 said:

there is anyhow no “general replacement made” in case of a failure AND there never was. This was always a one on one decision depending on condition of the wheel  AND depending on the service/obligingness of the re-seller.

Also i highly disagree with the opinion “because on the next model the axle was made stronger, KS has made ““a confession““ that the axle in fact was to thin”. If something like this would be an valid argument chain - now i overdraw it a bit - every 16b/c owner could go and demand a KS16S....which got a thicker axle, a stronger board, a stronger motor, stronger pedals and beside the outside shell was a complete new development. With that argument chain every producer would stop making their products better as „progress would be a confession to former faults“

Well, I don't think you are exactly right here. KS16S in terms of its basic mechanical construction is nothing else then KS16C. Assuming the same battery size it weighs the same and it is designed for the same weight of riders. And yet its axle, which in basic is also identical with the one installed in KS16C, is just a little bit (actually 2 mm, not 1 mm as someone suggested before) thicker in these very sectors it used to get broken in the KS16C models. But there is more to it, as "Electricunicycles" explain: older batches of the very same KS16C featured thinner axle while latter ones ("Electricunicycles" nicknamed them "face-lifting") already received the thicker pieces. Doesn't it make for an evident acknowledgement the former axle was poorly designed and did not match expectations of the purpose it was supposed to serve...?

4 hours ago, US69 said:

So i can say that there is no “general acknowledgement “ that the 16B axle was not strong enough

I never said "general acknowledgement" - KingSong, and as it shows its dealers, at least some of them, are not the kind of reliable and fair players that would honestly, openly and officially confirm their failure; as it is they are playing an evasion and dodging game and they put a brave face on such things, we already know it. What I was trying to say was, their behavior and actions they take disclose the true nature of things.

13 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

This is a tough case, King Song stopped supplying the 16B motors almost two years ago, they're completely unobtainable now. If KS Poland doesn't have these old motors (we don't), there's not a lot that can be done.

Honestly, I am kinda amazed and stunned and I find it quite funny and absurd some of you look like thinking this should be me, a small, weak and defenseless individual, who paid through nose for my car, who should be understandable and sympathizing towards a big, strong and rich company that is not willing to fulfill its warranty obligations and that it is me who, according to such understanding, should be ready to take the burden of such a confusion on myself...! Is this really what you are trying to say this is again me who should care and be bothered there are no spare parts for this wheel anymore, which in the end is STILL subject to the warranty coverage (!!!) anyway, which at the same time means this is obviously STILL quite a NEW wheel anyhow, because they just "discontinued" its production already...??? Come on, guys! I think there is something fundamentally wrong with this type of logic here! We are not talking about a 5-year or 8-year old product! It was bought as a NEW something like... A YEAR AGO and it still has almost a year warranty on it!!! This is sort of disgrace and disaster a company discontinues producing spare parts for its products while most of them are still in use and most of them are still covered by manufacturer warranty rights, in particular when it is universally known some of its components are being known for systematically failing! Guys, just wake up! This is a really enterprising surrealism what we are dealing here with!

Finally for a dessert I got something really ridiculous and absurd for you. A while ago @Smoother, relating to my KS16C, advised me:

On 1/3/2019 at 11:47 PM, Smoother said:

don't go jumping off everything you see.

So, as an expansion of this sensible after all suggestion in the attachment I added a picture of the front page of "Electricunicycle" web-site, a company from which my car originated and which declared my warranty rights to my broken axle void on the basis of the wheel being "misused". Isn't it ironic? :unsure:

elektryczne monocykle - zdjęcie skoczka'.png

Edited by szaroczek

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