KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[mrelwood]

5 minutes ago, Adel said:

As far as current KS wheels, are you suggesting its not currently possible to turn them on while charging ?

Don’t know for others than the 16S and 18XL but at least they do not balance whenever a charger is connected (and plugged into a wall socket). I would be surprised to see this behaviour change.

[Adel]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Don’t know for others than the 16S and 18XL but at least they do not balance whenever a charger is connected (and plugged into a wall socket). I would be surprised to see this behaviour change.

Ok thanks for the clarification.

[Marty Backe]

55 minutes ago, Adel said:

@Marty Backe if you look back at @eddiemoy post, he mentioned that the wheel turned on automatically when plugged to charger. I think we all agree that's not desirable feature and I thought that's what @US69 was referring will not be in final version (or maybe something else ?)  So I think some misunderstanding somewhere in the thread.

As far as current KS wheels, are you suggesting its not currently possible to turn them on and balance while charging ?  I'm curious, I have an old KS16 starter wheel I can check later to see that's the case or not. Or  somebody else can try sooner ?

EDIT: @mrelwood confirmed that some KS wheels do not balance when turned on while charging so ok the issue is clarified and we all are in agreement on all points.

 

No problem. I think we all understand each other now 

My KS14S and KS18XL will not balance if they are charging. All of my Gotway wheels will. Just a data point.

[Marty Backe]

50 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Don’t know for others than the 16S and 18XL but at least they do not balance whenever a charger is connected (and plugged into a wall socket). I would be surprised to see this behaviour change.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either. It would be nice if KingSong did change this behavior for their new wheels.

[Rywokast]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This is unfortunate. Believe it or not, there are many Gotway users who charge their wheels (while eating lunch / resting / etc) while turned so that the wheel won't rotate and fall.

This is a feature, not a bug. But I guess KingSong considers it a bug. I wonder if anyone at KingSong knows that it can be advantageous to keep balancing while charging?

Maybe as the KingSong Guy you could pass is along???

all my wheels are on stands.. spinning out every time i went to charge would be super annoying.. if you want it to balance while charging why not just turn it on? or best option would be to give users an option in the app to balance while charging or not.. but we all know thats waaaaaay too advanced to ask for lol.. edit i just saw your response, and i could have sworn that all my ks wheels i could charge and have balancing...? maybe im delusional haha

Edited June 19, 2019 by Rywokast

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

all my wheels are on stands.. spinning out every time i went to charge would be super annoying.. if you want it to balance while charging why not just turn it on? or best option would be to give users an option in the app to balance while charging or not.. but we all know thats waaaaaay too advanced to ask for lol.. edit i just saw your response, and i could have sworn that all my ks wheels i could charge and have balancing...? maybe im delusional haha

You're delusional  

Edited June 19, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Rywokast]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You're delusional  

oh ok.. youre right i just tried it.. idk why i thought that i would have bet money on it lol.. then thats definitely something they should add the option of

[BleepBloopBlop]

Can anyone verify the cells used in the 16X or the maximum charge amperage? I have adjustable current 6.2-12.5A charger I'm planning on using for fast charging my 16X. I'm just curious what cells are in it so I can look at their data sheet and determine what is a safe fast charging rate.

On another note, thanks for entertaining my Z10 vs MCM5 question for a 2nd wheel in addition to this 16X. I've decided to hold off on a second purchase until the new Monster 3 and Nikola 100v have been reviewed.

[houseofjob]

33 minutes ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

Can anyone verify the cells used in the 16X or the maximum charge amperage? I have adjustable current 6.2-12.5A charger I'm planning on using for fast charging my 16X. I'm just curious what cells are in it so I can look at their data sheet and determine what is a safe fast charging rate.

Unless my math's wrong, seems to be the same LG MJ1's they've used in past wheels.

[Garrie Lim]

1 hour ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

Can anyone verify the cells used in the 16X or the maximum charge amperage? I have adjustable current 6.2-12.5A charger I'm planning on using for fast charging my 16X. I'm just curious what cells are in it so I can look at their data sheet and determine what is a safe fast charging rate.

On another note, thanks for entertaining my Z10 vs MCM5 question for a 2nd wheel in addition to this 16X. I've decided to hold off on a second purchase until the new Monster 3 and Nikola 100v have been reviewed.

LG Mj1 3500mAh cells 

standard charge current(0.5c) 1700mA

Since it is in a 6P config, Max current to still be considered “standard” is 1.7A x 6 =10.2A

So you can safely charge your wheel with a 10A charger and it wouldn’t even be considered fast charging. 

[B08AH]

8 hours ago, Rywokast said:

i could have sworn that all my ks wheels i could charge and have balancing...?

First switch it on, then plug in the charger. If you plug the charger first, it won't let you turn it on. That's how it worked for my 18S.

Old 16A does not have that, can freely turn it on or off while charging.

[Unventor]

2 minutes ago, B08AH said:

First switch it on, then plug in the charger. If you plug the charger first, it won't let you turn it on. That's how it worked for my 18S.

Old 16A does not have that, can freely turn it on or off while charging.

I don’t recall exactly what wheel and where I read this, but... 

If you connect charge to wheel first and charge to wallpower then it can create a spark discharge. Around same time I read some connected charge to a wheel that was turned on that burned a port. 

So I am very careful to have charge connect to turned on wall plug before connecting it to turned off wheel. 

Note: It might have been back when I had my first EUC, Inmotion V8. 

[Pengloong]

I always connect charge cable to my turned off wheels first, then to the wall socket before switching on to charge. Have done the same for IPS,  Kingsong and Gotway wheels. Have never had any issue.....yet !!!!!

[meepmeepmayer]

6 hours ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

I'm just curious what cells are in it so I can look at their data sheet and determine what is a safe fast charging rate.

Careful! The limit might not be the cells, but the charge port. I can't find the max amperage for that, but it's probably the limiting factor. Ask KS or ewheels or someone who knows before you melt your port.

[BleepBloopBlop]

Lenovo goes up to 11.5 amps on the Slim Tip connector on their power supplies. My plan is to run my charge cable into both slim tip ports on the 16X to help easy the load on each connector. For my charger this means 6.25A per connector. From what I can gather, Ewheels 5A fast charger is a single slim tip connector, so I think we can safely assume that 10A total over 2 ports is very reliable in our 84V application.

 

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/chargers-and-batteries/chargers/PWR-ADP-BO-TP-230W-AC-Adapter-slim-tip/p/4X20E75111

[erk1024]

1 hour ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

I think we can safely assume that 10A total over 2 ports is very reliable in our 84V application.

There's more wiring in there than just the connectors. eWheels doesn't recommend charging more than 5A for whatever reason. The stock charger is sloooooowwww, like 12 - 16 hours? (I don't know, I didn't bother with it) But the fast charger will charge from 25% to 80% in about 4 hours. For shorter 20 mile rides, it charges in an hour or two. I guess the question is how fast do you need it to charge? Unless you just want to push the envelope, but ... experiments sometimes fail.   

[meepmeepmayer]

29 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

eWheels doesn't recommend charging more than 5A for whatever reason.

I think that is for Gotway/GX connectors.

I seem to remember an 8A number from KS, but 10A souns fine then.

[Unventor]

Well both KS18L and XL can handle 10A pr port, according to Tina from KS. I am not sure if same goes for KS16s or earlier models. 

However charging that hard you risk "burning" life cycles of the battery as it stress it more. And recommendation is to use standard charger ever 8-10 charge to balance batteries. 

So the way I charge my wheel KS18L is by 1 or 2 chargers. I have a charger at home and one at work 80% of the time I charge at work. If I am to go somewhere I take charger with me, maybe both depending on how fast I need wheel ready again. 

I never charge unattended or at night when I sleep. 

Looking at spec sheet I posted earlier in pdf format they didn't write anything about max A while charging. But I would expect to be close to KS18L/XL that is why I used that as example. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Unventor

[BleepBloopBlop]

The MJ1 cells can be charged at 1.75A per cell as their standard rate and 3.5A as a fast charge rate. I agree that fast charging isn't a great idea unless your situation requires it as it does stress the cell more than slow charging. I don't see how one would need to use a slow charge rate to balance the pack tho. The BMS should still be able to balance the cells even at higher charge current since at the top of the charge all CC/CV chargers go into the constant voltage phase where the BMS does its balance.

 

https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/Specification INR18650MJ1 22.08.2014.pdf

[meepmeepmayer]

10A/6 = 1.67A is still below the standard rate. I don't think charging even with a 10A charger would affect battery life.

And cell balancing doesn't depend on the charger used. The battery just needs to be full for the BMS to balance, that is all.

[bruno356]

23 hours ago, Garrie Lim said:

LG Mj1 3500mAh cells 

standard charge current(0.5c) 1700mA

Since it is in a 6P config, Max current to still be considered “standard” is 1.7A x 6 =10.2A

So you can safely charge your wheel with a 10A charger and it wouldn’t even be considered fast charging. 

@Garrie Lim Not sure your calculation is correct, cells are rated at 3.5 amps each, there are a combined 20 cells to provide 84 volts max charge (4.2v x 20 = 84v). Charging rate of 0.5C per cell would equal 35 amps total (1.75 amps per cell x 20 cells).

On top of all that the 18XL, as example, is 6P, so 35 amps x 6 = 210 amps at 0.5C. As I see this all we are ever doing with charging rates of 5 amps or 10 amps total, is trickle charging each cell (say 10 amps / 120 cells = 0.083 amps per cell).

I hope I got the maths right (please correct me if I am wrong), working on my experience with hobby lithium batteries.

Regards - Bruno

Edited June 21, 2019 by bruno356

[Rywokast]

while the technicalities of how fast the batteries are able to safely charge is intersting.. it does not matter, for safety reasons it is not a good idea to go over 5 amps on any wheel even if the battery can safely do 10.. the batteries arent the limiting factor here lol, the cheap, thin wiring will go way before anything happens to the battery and that wont be a good time.. if you go over that you are doing so at your own risk..

Edited June 21, 2019 by Rywokast

[meepmeepmayer]

@bruno356 You may know more than I do, but shouldn't it be irrelevant how many cells are in series (the wheel voltage)? They'll all get the same current if the number of parallel blocks is the same, right? So 10A/6blocks = 1.67A per block and then every cell in that block gets that current which is below 0.5C.

[Garrie Lim]

2 hours ago, bruno356 said:

@Garrie Lim Not sure your calculation is correct, cells are rated at 3.5 amps each, there are a combined 20 cells to provide 84 volts max charge (4.2v x 20 = 84v). Charging rate of 0.5C per cell would equal 35 amps total (1.75 amps per cell x 20 cells).

On top of all that the 18XL, as example, is 6P, so 35 amps x 6 = 210 amps at 0.5C. As I see this all we are ever doing with charging rates of 5 amps or 10 amps total, is trickle charging each cell (say 10 amps / 120 cells = 0.083 amps per cell).

I hope I got the maths right (please correct me if I am wrong), working on my experience with hobby lithium batteries.

Regards - Bruno

You are wrong unfortunately. 

KS16X is a 72V system.  20S6P

Yes you are right regarding full charge when we series cells together we increase voltage, hence 20 x4.2V =84.0V

However in this case where charging of batteries is the question, we need to look at the overall capacity of the whole system.  

When you parallel cells together, capacity(Ah) increases. Hence 6P: 6x3.5ah=21Ah

So you can think of the whole system as just one big cell that is 21ah. And as a general rule, standard charge is 0.5C

 

so 21/2=10.5

 

And we can safely say you can charge the whole system at 10amp/hr and it is still considered “standard” charging. Not fast charging. 

 

The only other question you have to ask is whether the wiring inside the wheel is able to handle the amount of amps you are pumping thru. The batteries may be able to handle 10amps and not break a sweat, but the wiring may not. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Garrie Lim

[Garrie Lim]

Fast charging is a myth, Fast chargers are a myth, at least for most of our chargers and applications.

 Most wheels today have 4P or more. Charging at 5A isn’t fast charging. It is faster, but it isn’t fast charging in the sense that it’s gonna drastically reduce your battery capacity within the time you use the wheel and probably replace it. 

Just to put things in perspective, the latest iPhone XS Max has a 3174mAh battery. 

Using the 0.5C rule we can safely say the standard charge is around 1.5amp/hr

 

however how many of us own and use 2/3a chargers? And we leave our phones turned on for prolonged periods of time. Charging it every now and then, never letting it “rest”. 

 

How apparent is the battery degradation to you? Even after 2 years, which is the average life cycle of smart phones these days, the battery may not be as good but it doesn’t degrade that drastically that it’s totally unusable. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Garrie Lim