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Jean Dublin

New KingSong 16X Rumours

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

They see me scrollin'... they hatin'. :roflmao:

Awesome test man! I've read that the MSX is supposed to do 45km/h which is almost 28mph. I don't know if I want to find out though.
I think the speeds you were doing at the end were good enough especially at your weight. I weigh 63kg naked. Get ripped or die trying.

45 miles is 72km. At that speed and that weight there isn't much to complain about.
Also after having spent half the day wanking around here on the forum we have come to the conclusion that the expected range difference between a MSX and 18XL would be 10-15% so you would have maybe gotten another 5 miles with lower speeds during the last 2 or 3 miles.

The biggest factor that comes into play besides cold is the wind factor or wind resistance. It increases quite a fair bit at higher speeds so if you would ever NEEEEEED to get more than 72km on a single charge then all you have to do is slow down.

So what we did learn today is that the voltage charts and speed charts for the MSX and 18XL say one thing but real life says another because they don't take voltage drop into account. The world isn't perfectly linear. Which once again puts the Nikola 2100WH in it's own territory for a 16" wheel. And also puts the 100v version with the 1800 battery on equal terms with the expected range of the 16X provided it goes down to 3.0V.

And aaaaaaall of this contributes to the thread, and the members, and the community.

Now my only question is how are we going to find all of this information later on when we need it?
If anybody asks us a question about voltage discharge we can tell them off and bark at them for not using the search function and checking out the 16x rumours thread. :clap3:

 

I ride the 84V MSX and weigh about 74kg. The wheel usually starts beeping at around 52-53kph but if I try to lean less as I go faster I can overcome the beeping. 

 

So far the fastest I've managed was 55kph without beeping. I’ve not done any similar test so far as I don’t wanna become “superman” and fly off my wheel. 

 

Im sure at full charge and correct riding style I could probably go near 60kph but it would be really pushing it. 

Edited by Garrie Lim
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Every time you call Gotway a liar I think of this clip lmao:

:D

I'll add a clip from a favorite Simpson episode of mine. Substitute Martin, the first kid presenting, for KingSong and Homer for Gotway and it's not too different from what I imagine @eddiemoy might feel at times with regards to Gotway (it's such a great episode regardless, no offense intended at any rate!) :D 

 

 

Edited by Nils

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8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How does it work? The wheel gets softer with lower battery? Didn't know that.

Yes, definitely not as responsive near the 50% range for the KS18L. I haven't detected this behavior in the XL yet, although I haven't ridden nearly as much as the 18L. I also have yet to experience the sharp tilt-back on the XL like I did on the 18L.

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1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

Yes, definitely not as responsive near the 50% range for the KS18L. I haven't detected this behavior in the XL yet, although I haven't ridden nearly as much as the 18L. I also have yet to experience the sharp tilt-back on the XL like I did on the 18L.

range would be over 50% more and i think the slowdown doesnt begin until 30% so you would not only have the bigger battery but be able to ride to a lower percentage without slowdown, wouldnt be common to ever get it unless you went on a long distance ride

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13 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 

How does it work? The wheel gets softer with lower battery? Didn't know that.

Power comes from voltage. Whenever we say a wheel max speed is xxx kph, it is based on full charge basis. As voltage drops, max speed will decrease. 

Every electric vehicle has 3 basic components 

1. Battery (voltage)

2. Controller/motherboard(ampere)

4. Motor(watts)

 

Battery provides the voltage but voltage changes all the time, an 84V wheel like msx or nikola or ks16X is only 84v the moment you unplug the wheel after a full charge. From that point on, voltage drops following a sigmoidal curve, quickly and steeply at first before being constant in the middle and then dropping very quickly again as it approaches cut off voltage  

 

Take for example the MSX

Theorectically, the max power would be 84.0V x 50a =4200w

 

however that won’t happen because by the time the motor reaches max performance the voltage would have dropped.

 

As you ride, the voltage drops and the max amount of power also drops  

 

Thant is why at lower voltages the wheel doesn’t go as fast. The juice simply isn’t there.

 

this is also why when you are at critically low voltages, the Wheel beeps very easily because any sudden or steep forward lean would cause the wheel to require a surge of power to compensate, and if the voltage sag is too great and drops to the cut off value, the wheel will cut. Hence at low speed you have to go slow and do gentle leaning  

 

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This is also why I hate how the msx is called an 84V wheel. It isn’t. 

 

The proper term is 72V system. 

 

Same goes for the monster or other “100v” systems.  They are actually 88V systems. 

 

20s: 72v system, 84v max charge

24s: 88v system, 100.8v max charge 

Edited by Garrie Lim
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3 hours ago, Rywokast said:

range would be over 50% more and i think the slowdown doesnt begin until 30% so you would not only have the bigger battery but be able to ride to a lower percentage without slowdown, wouldnt be common to ever get it unless you went on a long distance ride

The issue is not top speed reduction, but a noticeable drop in acceleration at any speed, even from stopped.

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3 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

The issue is not top speed reduction, but a noticeable drop in acceleration at any speed, even from stopped.

oh really? interesting..

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5 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

oh really? interesting..

Again. It’s due to voltage. Decrease in voltage will decrease the acceleration 

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32 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

These stupid KingSongs are sooooo loud. That high pitch whine is maddening on a quiet still night. Really looking forward to them addressing this loud issue on the 16X..

I also hated the whine on the  ks16s i hope it's fixed on the 16x .my msx is super quite even when it's stood still i don't even know if it's turned on 

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1 hour ago, Garrie Lim said:

Again. It’s due to voltage. Decrease in voltage will decrease the acceleration 

i havent noticed it before but then again i never ride my wheels below 30% usually and am considered a feather weight rider lol

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1 hour ago, stephen said:

I also hated the whine on the  ks16s i hope it's fixed on the 16x .my msx is super quite even when it's stood still i don't even know if it's turned on 

the classic kingsong music, at least people can hear you coming xD but last i heard they had changed the motor last minute to a new 2200 nominal and tuned it to eliminate the noise.. at least thats the rumor, who knows how successful they actually were

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3 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

These stupid KingSongs are sooooo loud. That high pitch whine is maddening on a quiet still night. Really looking forward to them addressing this loud issue on the 16X...that will be the main reason I buy one and sell my KS18XL

Really? It bothers you that much? 

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20 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I guess I should call all Kingsongs unsafe and irresponsible because they let you empty the battery (too) far, allowing for an easy overlean at low battery, and maybe even damage to the cells and premature aging.

Totally inconsistent with KS engineering philosophy. A company that will not let you go too fast allows you to ride low enough to damages the battery cells? Whatchutalkinboutwillis! :confused1:

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9 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Totally inconsistent with KS engineering philosophy. A company that will not let you go too fast allows you to ride low enough to damages the battery cells? Whatchutalkinboutwillis! :confused1:

untrue, cell cut off is 2.5v.  allowing you to go down to 3.0v will not damage the cells.  plus the firmware is very conservative when going down from 3.3v-3.0v.

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3 hours ago, Garrie Lim said:

Again. It’s due to voltage. Decrease in voltage will decrease the acceleration 

as far as i know, hub motors top speed is related to the voltage while the torque is related to the amps you get out of the wheel.  There is a rating per hub motor called the revolution per volt.  If you take a look at the boosted board motors, they have crazy high revolutions per voltage.  the voltage also goes down when the amps are high because the high amps cause internal resistance of the wire to go way up.  that is the voltage drop you see when wheel is under load.   

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47 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

untrue, cell cut off is 2.5v.  allowing you to go down to 3.0v will not damage the cells.  plus the firmware is very conservative when going down from 3.3v-3.0v.

:confused1:. I think you may misunderstand me. I am agreeing with your point about 3.0 being safe, and disagreeing with the notion that it is potentially damaging. I can’t imagine Kingsong engineering unsafe operating parameters into their wheels; contradicts their philosophy.

Edited by Lutalo
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2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

the classic kingsong music, at least people can hear you coming xD but last i heard they had changed the motor last minute to a new 2200 nominal and tuned it to eliminate the noise.. at least thats the rumor, who knows how successful they actually were

It’s not a rumor. KS is using a 2200 watt nominal motor paired with a 1554wh battery. Speed will continue to be limited at 50 kph.

Edited by Lutalo
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44 minutes ago, stephen said:

Yeah wine is still there

 

Is this a video of the latest 16x with the new 2200W motor after improvements regarding the whining noises? 

 

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5 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

I just got back from a night ride with my KS18XL. I've been riding my Gotways a lot recently. The 18L/XL is much more sensitive to accelerate (less leaning force required) than Gotways. This sensitive acceleration makes the slowing of acceleration more apparent.

These stupid KingSongs are sooooo loud. That high pitch whine is maddening on a quiet still night. Really looking forward to them addressing this loud issue on the 16X...that will be the main reason I buy one and sell my KS18XL.

How do you manage to move about in general traffic, if it is such a problem? 

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The voltage explanation for the 18(X)L behavior makes no sense. Sure, the voltage drops, that's how batteries work. You can simply draw more current to get the same power. It's not like the wheel has much choice how much power to use.

Since a 6p (or 4p) battery can deliver much more current than regular riding needs, no problem! So if the KS gets "weaker" below 50%, that's on the firmware and on purpose. Slower or softer response (like a softer riding mode) to flatten current spikes and power draw.

Wheels do not just get weaker on their own, do they? Never heard anything like that. Never noticed it on my ACM which is as rock hard just before the low battery tiltback throws me off as it is at full battery. And that just does not make sense.

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