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KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)


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1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

was there any comments about how they feel about the comparison?

They was comments about the nikola squeeking and a big group of Chinese buyers returned some of there's due to the pedal hangers differ causing pedal dip . The Nikola with side pads on make it wider than the 16x . 16x very good torque same as the nikola in comparison, very very nimble on the 16x, lifting with the handle and lift sensor is solid and works , I've asked kev to ask if kuji has the 2200w motor so I'll update. I'll update more if more is posted 👍 

Here's it next too the msx

Screenshot-20190609-154418-com-whatsapp.
Screenshot-20190609-154148-com-whatsapp.

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21 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Better pedals, you can buy the upgraded pedals now.  I think the ergonomics of the wheel is already great.

Well Jason pedals will not fit the KS16X due to new attachment design. But then again they are only 2cm short totally. To me it is a welcome trade of. My Jason pedals got a few scrapes due I have a tight turn in a roundabout that is hard to make with speed especially if I have both cars and cycles and pedestrians incoming too. 

22 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Already has better higher density LED's, this isn't a feature I like.  I rather it have no LED's. 

Well I guess you don't ride evening or night in traffic. Any light is better than none as long you can change from rainbow colours. Any blue light are no-go in Scandinavian traffic, as they are allowed only on emergency vehicle (police, fire department, ambulances). 

Now what is obvious is that put 100 people in a chat room and you have 120 opinions on how to make next wheel. I for one is glad we don't have one wheel to rule them all. 

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15 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

There is a limit to what can be squeezed into the round shape of the 16S.  You cannot squeeze more batteries into the shell without making it too thick hence the new shape is a little wider and a little taller.  

We won't really know how much of the shape and space inside the 16x is functional until we get a proper teardown. Good design is hard, it involves creativity and compromise, think of how Ninebot inset part of the Z10's battery into the motor's cavity.

22 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Thinness and thicker tires don't mix.  You are asking for opposites.  LOL.

Why not? What's preventing them from using the added space in new and more creative ways? What is preventing them from reducing the tolerances between the tire and the shell and reducing the thickness of the shell and the padding? Again, good design is hard.

27 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Better pedals, you can buy the upgraded pedals now.  I think the ergonomics of the wheel is already great.

There is always room for improvement

29 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Taller body is lends to better ergonomics. 

This could be true

33 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

You can only have the wheel so thin because of the batteries.

As long as they keep building battery packs in blocks this will continue to be an issue. Inmotion and Ninebot have been the most creative in this area. 

35 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

No one has any dampening and I don't think this is a good idea

I'm referring to all the components that rattle inside Kingsong wheels (handle etc), make it a more quiet, refined, wheel

 

37 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

simple is better

I agree 

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40 minutes ago, wheelr said:

We won't really know how much of the shape and space inside the 16x is functional until we get a proper teardown. Good design is hard, it involves creativity and compromise, think of how Ninebot inset part of the Z10's battery into the motor's cavity.

Think here the Z10 battery changed the ride dynamics of the wheel which I hated.

43 minutes ago, wheelr said:

As long as they keep building battery packs in blocks this will continue to be an issue. Inmotion and Ninebot have been the most creative in this area. 

Not when it changes the ride dynamics of the wheel.  The Inmotion is top heavy, didn't like the feel of that.  the Z10 with the battery in the middle might have been the cause of the gyro effect, or could be combo of the big wheel.  

 

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57 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well Jason pedals will not fit the KS16X due to new attachment design. But then again they are only 2cm short totally. To me it is a welcome trade of. My Jason pedals got a few scrapes due I have a tight turn in a roundabout that is hard to make with speed especially if I have both cars and cycles and pedestrians incoming too. 

Well I guess you don't ride evening or night in traffic. Any light is better than none as long you can change from rainbow colours. Any blue light are no-go in Scandinavian traffic, as they are allowed only on emergency vehicle (police, fire department, ambulances). 

Now what is obvious is that put 100 people in a chat room and you have 120 opinions on how to make next wheel. I for one is glad we don't have one wheel to rule them all. 

Have you confirmed that jason's pedals will not fit?  The only thing that matters is the width of the pedal hanger.  From what I've seen in the pictures, they have the same pedal hanger width of all the other wheels 2.25" with zero gap.  

Correct, I don't like to ride at night because of the in-ability to see clearly.  I'm sure they can change the light colors.  via the app.

 

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1 hour ago, wheelr said:

The 16x is supposed to be the evolution of the 16s

I don't believe so. The 16X seems to be designed as a performance/offroad 16 incher (well 17 incher) parallel to the 16S, which is still in production and has recently gotten a refresh (unfortunately without a spec bump, which for a 35kph wheel in today's market would have been nice). Same as the Nikola, the Tesla is still in production and got an update recently.

So both companies seem to be going parallel paths with one smaller, lighter, more manageable 16 incher for commuting etc. and a bigger 16 incher where they go all-in.

You're right though, the 16S size could probably fit a 1600Wh battery (like the ACM) if they wanted to do it (and maybe did some small modifications). The 16X and Nikola are both bigger and heavier than they needed to be judging from the specs alone.

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22 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Have you confirmed that jason's pedals will not fit?  The only thing that matters is the width of the pedal hanger.  From what I've seen in the pictures, they have the same pedal hanger width of all the other wheels 2.25" with zero gap.  

Correct, I don't like to ride at night because of the in-ability to see clearly.  I'm sure they can change the light colors.  via the app.

 

Jason said so a while back. And also said pedals are not spring positioned but are floppy with magnetic fixed point like the Z10. That was when he confirmed size of pedels too. 

But it matters less as I am getting a KS16X unit asap I can buy on. Then I will have to take the pluses and minuses for what they came up with from KS. 

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8 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Jason said so a while back. And also said pedals are not spring positioned but are floppy with magnetic fixed point like the Z10. That was when he confirmed size of pedels too. 

But it matters less as I am getting a KS16X unit asap I can buy on. Then I will have to take the pluses and minuses for what they came up with from KS. 

Oh damn it. I hope we can still do the kick deploy on these pedals.  I don't like touching the pedals with my hands.  OCD thing I guess...  It is still as big as the Inmotion V10 ones, 24cm.

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1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

Oh damn it. I hope we can still do the kick deploy on these pedals.  I don't like touching the pedals with my hands.  OCD thing I guess...  It is still as big as the Inmotion V10 ones, 24cm.

No you have to disengage pedels by the app. Same goes for trolly. You have 10 free test tries. 🤑 New app version 4.0 only costs 10$, and will release in about 2 weeks. 

Last minute changes to satisfy those complaining about rattling handle. 😎

Ohh darn it isn't 1st of April anymore 😏

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On 6/8/2019 at 7:24 PM, Marty Backe said:

(Nikola trolley handle) Good to know that non-locking is the norm.

I can't remember where I saw it, but somebody complained that the scorpion style handle on an inMotion swung up (due to centrifugal force) and hit him hard in a mild crash. And it's not locking. Maybe it would be good to nail it down during a ride: velcro strap or 3D print a latch or ...

Edited by erk1024
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54 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

A properly executed suspension system works just like - or better than - a bigger or slightly deflated tire.

Several people have mentioned the suspension system as a request for future EUC features, and some people - you included - have responded how a suspension system will mess up the riding experience or dynamics. But, how would you know when you have never tried riding on one?

I have experimented with a few DIY suspension systems in the pedals of both 16S and the MSX. The ones that work well enable me to ride with a slightly higher tire pressure, which improves handling. The suspension also decreases the load on the wheel at sharp bumps, potholes, curbs etc, and increases the pedal grip as there is a lot less shaking going on on uneven terrain.

If the manufacturers implement suspension in the wheel design, it will be nothing short of a game changer, and I believe it is bound to find it’s way to the standard EUC design in some form at some point. One could see the 3” tire as being one already.

If you consider the 3” tire suspension, why not you legs?  If you consider 3” tire suspension, why not the older 2.125” tires?  All your talk and you circle back to the tires being suspension and only 3” can be considered?  What about the 4” on the Z10?  Let me guess, it isn’t the same cuz it is pneumatic vs tube filled?

i don’t agree with your assessment of a mechanical suspension reducing load on the wheel.  Any suspension will be under tension when riding.  I don’t see how this would decrease anything. I would think it would make things worse since it is under tension.  i.e. when you hit a pothole, it will spring down to the hole faster maybe causing more damage to the wheel.  How would the suspension account for the different weights?   You think that that it would increase pedal grip?  I see the opposite since we are just standing on the pedal unsecured, what happens to you in a car when you hit some big potholes?  Butt leaves the seat?  Please quit it with the suspension nonsense. Use what god gave you, your legs. 

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@eddiemoy I am just another one that totally disagrees with your argument regarding suspension. Suspension well designed and adjustable for weight with incorporated shock ab-sobers (important to stop bounce) would be a good thing, not everyone has young forgiving knees that are basically used as shock ab-sobers. This enhancement will come, just a matter of time.

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1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

If you consider the 3” tire suspension, why not you legs?  If you consider 3” tire suspension, why not the older 2.125” tires?  All your talk and you circle back to the tires being suspension and only 3” can be considered?  What about the 4” on the Z10?  Let me guess, it isn’t the same cuz it is pneumatic vs tube filled?

i don’t agree with your assessment of a mechanical suspension reducing load on the wheel.  Any suspension will be under tension when riding.  I don’t see how this would decrease anything. I would think it would make things worse since it is under tension.  i.e. when you hit a pothole, it will spring down to the hole faster maybe causing more damage to the wheel.  How would the suspension account for the different weights?   You think that that it would increase pedal grip?  I see the opposite since we are just standing on the pedal unsecured, what happens to you in a car when you hit some big potholes?  Butt leaves the seat?  Please quit it with the suspension nonsense. Use what god gave you, your legs. 

I don’t know if you are trying to pick a fight with me or if you really don’t understand the physics involved. Either way, it seems that trying to explain why everything you just wrote is nonsense would be a waste of time.

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18 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

I could use both wheels with suspension and without. Sometimes I want the heavy battlecruiser, and other times I want tight, stiff manual response. EUC's have so much room for improvement.

Sounds like you want a road-preview active suspension. These systems scan the road ahead to make adjustments earlier than a non-preview active suspension, which rely purely on feedback from the wheel movement sensors.

I'm sure we'll get such systems on EUCs before next century.

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2 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

Sounds like you want a road-preview active suspension. These systems scan the road ahead to make adjustments earlier than a non-preview active suspension, which rely purely on feedback from the wheel movement sensors.

I'm sure we'll get such systems on EUCs before next century.

Oh, I just meant different wheels, not necessarily a single adjusting one, although that does sound intriguing. Suspension could take some of the challenge of riding away and become boring like a bicycle. It could also be the key break-though to freeway speeds and road legal EUCs.

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2 hours ago, Mono said:

Let me start with the disclaimer that I am not in the pro-suspension camp. I am not, because suspension aggravates the biggest flaw of EUCs (from my perspective) by adding even more weight. Placing the suspension between pedal and shell also has the considerable disadvantage of a quite large unsprung mass. And it's hard to see how to come up with a better (good) suspension design for EUCs.

To me it's difficult to predict riding experience with suspension of relevant travel (suspension did not catch on for skiing, for example), but it is IMHO worth to at least explore the possibilities if weight is not considered the deal breaker.

Now the responses to all the questions (I assume more or less reflecting @mrelwood's position on suspension):

Sure, the legs are our suspension. The disadvantage: it needs a lot of practice and permanent attention. Mistakes have happened and will happen, some of which can probably be prevented with built-in suspension. I doubt that suspension can fully replace the leg work any time soon, if ever.

Any tire is part of the suspension of the vehicle. Larger tires tend to give better suspension, but size is not the only factor. I don't understand the opposition between pneumatic and tube filled, as a tube seems to imply pneumatic functioning.

Suspension decreases peak forces, I would say big time, actually.

I agree that additional damage from traversing a deep pothole may be possible. I think it is a very unlikely scenario though and usually suspension will reduce or prevent damage. It is often better to go down through the pothole and up at the end than to sail through it and hit the opposite side face-on.

The same question you can ask for your car, or for a motorbike, and the answer is the same: it doesn't need to account for different weights to be effective. It could account for weight by having adjustable pretension and/or damping.

Probably yes.

When your car hits a pothole you are very happy that it has suspension, for sure, even if you don't think that you are happy.

The more effective the suspension is, the less butt leaves seat. I am not sure, maybe you think about suspension to be like an undamped spring, which it is not.

Are you saying suspension is nonsense because it is not God-given? :thumbup:

It's hard to see that suspension will fully replace the leg work ever, but it may make the ride smoother and safer (though the increased speed that riders will chose with suspension equipped wheels may well cancel the added safety).

From my POV, if you are looking at suspension from a car perspective, it clearly cannot work in our scenario.  And what are you trying to dampen?  You cannot build in enough travel for it to make any sense.  1-2 inches of travel?  3-5 inches?  Again, we are not strapped in to the EUC.  I don’t ever want to be. Hitting any significant bump if you are not ready, you will be thrown suspension or not.  

There isn’t any way to replace your legs.  There is so much we can absorb, trying to build in a foot of of travel is impossible.  Don’t think there is anything they can build that is better than your legs. 

Your reference to a car suspension is weird, it is kid of like us standing on the EUC with our legs locked.  What ever the car transmits to us we absorb with our spine.  Like with any stiff sports car.  On a bus when it is bouncing up and down and you are standing.  If your have your legs bent, you don’t feel much. 

Why even use other vehicles when they all don’t apply.  Guess just to try to get the point across.  Easiest is just to ride with your legs locked and then try it with your legs bent.  It is a huge difference going over bumps.  One is teeth chattering the other I didn’t feel a thing. 

If you have bad knees, put a brace on or don’t ride in the rough.  Suspension isn’t going to help.

Good luck to all those who think a suspended EUC is a good idea.  

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7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t know if you are trying to pick a fight with me or if you really don’t understand the physics involved. Either way, it seems that trying to explain why everything you just wrote is nonsense would be a waste of time.

I understand physics of it all.  I know how it works in a car and bike, but I cannot see it working here in our application.   Especially since we use our pedals to control the wheel.  Why would you want that to move?  Disaster comes to mind. 

If you plan on standing on the EUC like an idiot relying on suspension to make you a better rider is isn’t going to happen.  

There is just no way to design something better than your legs or even remotely come close.  

Pedals/hangers need to be the strongest part, putting in suspension would make it weak and point that moves will fail.  

Again, good luck with that idea.  From my POV, will never happen.  

 

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3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Again, we are not strapped in to the EUC.

The idea that one would need to be strapped to a vehicle because it has suspension doesn't make any sense to me. It seems, we have a totally different conceptions of what suspension means and implies. Maybe a good summary is that I believe suspension reduces the (vertical) motion of the sprung mass, while you seem to suggest that suspension increases the (vertical) motion of the sprung mass.

I am even pretty certain though that one of the main reasons to introduce suspension is to reduce vertical motion of the sprung mass. So be it, I guess that's not going to change any time soon :cheers:

Just FTR, I am a fierce proponent of bent and soft knees, I believe it is one of the major safety measures we have when riding an EUC.

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