KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

I was going at the end lol but i was worried about stopping,,, how do you stop and get off lol 😂

any women about? aim and crash spetacular into a new "friend"

ohh hold on that lady assisting you, gf or wife....plan b...

[Nils]

4 minutes ago, Unventor said:

And bearded and insulated for cold time here in Sweden...just in case. 

I stay bearded at all times, constant vigilance Besides, I tried shaving it off one time many years ago and I didn't recognize myself.

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

any women about? aim and crash spetacular into a new "friend"

ohh hold on that lady assisting you, gf or wife....plan b...

Plan b wait till the gf not there then take a fall 😂😂

[eddiemoy]

17 hours ago, mrelwood said:

% doesn’t mean very much between manufacturers. Gotway’s 0% = KingSong’s 20%. And since the discharge curve is not linear, probably neither have even the 50% in the middle. Even the 100% is not the same.

Add Gotway starting to beep at 15% (= KingSong 32%), and the KingSong speed reduction under 30%, multiplied by how easy the rider is annoyed by either feature, and you see that 440% of the perceived 10% range difference is up to personal misjudgement and lack of understanding the %.

I would advise not to determine anything from having ridden the battery down to 68%.

Edit: As Marty said, when the wheel stops, it stops, no matter the percentage, or even voltage. But I think even more important is how empty you are comfortable riding until it is no longer fun or meaningful. You are not going to plan your trips to end with careful crawling for the last 5 miles.

Who cares what the actual voltage is of the pack.  What is important is usable battery.  If GW can’t figure out how to give their riders safe access to the “hidden” battery, does it even matter.  Don’t make excuses for them please.  

Also, I rather ride a wheel slowly for 5 miles as you call it crawling than to carry a 50lb wheel 5 miles.  I wouldn’t call it crawling.  It isn’t the unhindered speed but I’ll take it any day over carrying the wheel home. 

[eddiemoy]

14 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@eddiemoy @Marty Backe The 18(X)L discharges the cells down to 3.0V. All Gotways discharge only to 3.3V. So you get more range because the batteries are emptied further. That's the secret. I seem to recall a rumor GWwill do that from the Nikola, too, to stay competitive on range, but maybe I totally imagined that

 0% on a Gotway (3.3V) is 25% on the 18XL (also 3.3V!). So in other words, the GW absolutely definitely already has stopped you from riding (heavy low battery tiltback) before the 18XL even starts any battery related speed reductions!

I wrote about that here:

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/13209-speed-reduction-graph-rider-info-needed/?tab=comments#comment-234939

Until GW can figure out how to allow their riders safe access to the claimed hidden remaining battery this is all moot.  If this is true about the voltage, it just means KS has figure out how to allow the rider to access the pack until 3.0V and GW didn’t.  And until GW does figure it out you can’t say oh it is because they call 3.3v zero.  Fact is they decide 3.3v is not rideable anymore.  

[bruno356]

Hi guys, not overly knowledgeable about the EUC batteries except they are the same type in a different format/enclosure to those used in quad copters etc (model planes), in this hobby it is recommended that if you want long life from your batteries,  one should not allow the voltage to drop below 3.3v per cell (3 volts or below will or may damage the battery cell) and the storage voltage on my charger is set to 3.85v per cell (instead of the nominal 3.7v).

I just assume that the above would apply to the EUC cells as well. So if KS is allowing voltages to drop down to 3v per cell this may not necessarily be a good thing over the long term considering that not all cells are perfectly the same. There is always a slight voltage difference between cells  (this increases with age or number of charge cycles over time) and 3.3 volts allows a safety margin to ensure that some cells do not drop below 3v and inevitably fail. 

Regards - bruno

Edited May 26, 2019 by bruno356

[stephen]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Who cares what the actual voltage is of the pack.  What is important is usable battery.  If GW can’t figure out how to give their riders safe access to the “hidden” battery, does it even matter.  Don’t make excuses for them please.  

 

2 hours ago, bruno356 said:

So if KS is allowing voltages to drop down to 3v per cell this may not necessarily be a good thing over the long term considering that not all cells are perfectly the same. There is always a slight voltage difference between cells  (this increases with age or number of charge cycles over time) and 3.3 volts allows a safety margin to ensure that some cells do not drop below 3v and inevitably fail. 

If this is true maybe gotway are protecting are longevity of our batteries  😊 no excuses needed 

Only time will tell i suppose 

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Who cares what the actual voltage is of the pack.  What is important is usable battery.  If GW can’t figure out how to give their riders safe access to the “hidden” battery, does it even matter.  Don’t make excuses for them please.

You seem to have completely missed my point. I’m annoyed that my MSX starts beeping so early, when there is still a good amount of juice for peaceful travelling.

What I wanted to bring up was that your range calculations based on Gotway vs KingSong 100 -> 70% were pointless and does not give us any data.

8 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Also, I rather ride a wheel slowly for 5 miles as you call it crawling than to carry a 50lb wheel 5 miles.  I wouldn’t call it crawling.  It isn’t the unhindered speed but I’ll take it any day over carrying the wheel home. 

Me too, of course. But I fail to see how this correlates to my posting.

I’m certain the 18XL has a better range, both before alarms/speed reductions and to the final stop. But comparing percentages between manufacturers does not tell us that.

[meepmeepmayer]

10 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Until GW can figure out how to allow their riders safe access to the claimed hidden remaining battery this is all moot.  If this is true about the voltage, it just means KS has figure out how to allow the rider to access the pack until 3.0V and GW didn’t.  And until GW does figure it out you can’t say oh it is because they call 3.3v zero.  Fact is they decide 3.3v is not rideable anymore.  

 What's there to figure out? They could change a number in the firmware and that's it. They just decided not to, for whatever reason.

And nothing is moot if I just state the (apparent) facts. The 18XL vs MSX range discrepancy was mentioned and this is (part of) the explanation.

Not sure why you are so incensed by two people stating this

[eddiemoy]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 What's there to figure out? They could change a number in the firmware and that's it. They just decided not to, for whatever reason.

And nothing is moot if I just state the (apparent) facts. The 18XL vs MSX range discrepancy was mentioned and this is (part of) the explanation.

Not sure why you are so incensed by two people stating this

Who has actually confirmed the number?  Who has run it down to zero on each wheel and measured?  

Somehow we are to assume someone is correct that somehow GW not known for restricting anything is somehow restricting the battery pack?  Sorry, but doesn’t sound right to me.  GW doesn’t restrict speed, don’t restrict when voltage goes too low allowing for cut outs   Don’t restrict current so the motor wires and mosfets get destroyed. But again, some how they had the sense to restrict the battery pack.  I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t make any sense to me.  

Last time I checked GW hasn’t figured out how to join the 21st century and allow for firmware upgrades with their app. How are you to upgrade the firmware?  Buy a new board?  And the diehard GW fans say it is a good thing.  Same as those people who own non Tesla’s.  LMAO.  

Will wait for @Marty Backe‘s side by side test.  Maybe he can measure remember to measure the output voltage of the packs to confirm the cut off (zero percent) voltage. 

[stephen]

7 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Will wait for @Marty Backe‘s side by side test.  Maybe he can measure remember to measure the output voltage of the packs to confirm the cut off (zero percent) voltage. 

I've got this if this helps 0.4% i rode my msx untill it was no longer ridable due to tiltback so far tilted back

[meepmeepmayer]

The 3.0V number for the 18(X)L is from here:

The Gotway numbers (4.1125V - 3.3V) are from here:

In general, GW keeps it (too) simple and "overengineers" (in the widest sense) in response, while KS is "smart" in how they design their wheel electronics. Both are valid approaches.

For example:

• Gotways don't complain until you reach 15% battery (ignoring top speed reductions which are still very high even at the low end) and they can do that because 15% battery is actually a high voltage. Meanwhile KS start at 25% but let you run down the voltage much lower, so their 25% is actually notably lower in comparison.
  Range (KS) vs. low battery safety (GW).
• GWs let you stress the hardware till it breaks, while KS will limit current and whatnot. That is nice if it prevents the wheel from dying (really hard to accomplish on modern GWs, see the MSX car push test), but is a problem if it's done overly carefully. For example, @Kuji Rolls 18XL + MSX steep short hill test showed that the KS drops you (presumably due to some limiter) while the MSX just powers through.

People will have different views on what is better.

@eddiemoy you seem to be in a strong anti-GW mood at the moment and state a lot of nonsense in that above post so I'm not saying much on that

Edited May 26, 2019 by meepmeepmayer
spelling

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

I've got this if this helps 0.4% i rode my msx untill it was no longer ridable due to tiltback so far tilted back

You were only able to get 47 miles from a full charge?  Ok.  So it seems GW has put their zero at 3.3v.  

[stephen]

1 minute ago, eddiemoy said:

You were only able to get 47 miles from a full charge?  Ok.  So it seems GW has put their zero at 3.3v.  

Yeah that's on a good day 🙄

[eddiemoy]

2 minutes ago, stephen said:

Yeah that's on a good day 🙄

Something wrong with your wheel?  I think Marty was able to get 57miles.  

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The 3.0V number for the 18(X)L is from here:

The Gotway numbers (4.1125V - 3.3V) are from here:

In general, GW keeps it (too) simple and "overengineers" (in the widest sense) in response, while KS is "smart" in how they design their wheel electronics. Both are valid approaches.

For example:

• Gotways don't complain until you reach 15% battery (ignoring top speed reductions which are still very high even at the low end) and they can do that because 15% battery is actually a high voltage. Meanwhile KS start at 25% but let you run down the voltage much lower, so their 25% is actually notably lower in comparison.
  Range (KS) vs. low battery safety (GW).
• GWs let you stress the hardware till it breaks, while KS will limit current and whatnot. That is nice if it prevents the wheel from dying (really hard to accomplish on modern GWs, see the MSX car push test), but is a problem if it's done overly carefully. For example, @Kuji Rolls 18XL + MSX steep short hill test showed that the KS drops you (presumably due to some limiter) while the MSX just powers through.

People will have different views on what is better.

@eddiemoy you seem to be in a strong anti-GW mood at the moment and state a lot of nonsense in that above post so I'm not saying much on that

Although I appreciate you providing a link to US69’s comment regarding voltage, would like to see something like what @stephen provided.

I’m not sure what you are referring to about nonsense.  You mention easy as updating the firmware.  I pointed out the contrary.  It isn’t as easy to use the last 25% as you may think without injury to the rider.  It requires a lot more knowledge than you think to come up with a safe algo.  

Just seen many of the arguments justifying GW inability to update firmware.  Kind of like the arguments you get on the playground of the kid that doesn’t have it saying I didn’t want that anyway.

So in summary GW starts limiting much earlier and don’t allow use of the last 20% of the battery?   

[stephen]

38 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Something wrong with your wheel?  I think Marty was able to get 57miles.  

Marty's lighter than me and my roads are all hills ,,

I've often thought mine was low but I'm not going into that debate again lol

[mrelwood]

54 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Just seen many of the arguments justifying GW inability to update firmware.

I don’t think any on this thread though.

54 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

So in summary GW starts limiting much earlier and don’t allow use of the last 20% of the battery?   

Your affection towards the % as a measurement unit is slightly adorable.

As has been said, there are a few differing takes on what is the safe ”0%” of a li-ion cell. It is up to the manufacturer to decide what is the last 20%.

Tesla cars don’t charge past ”80%”. You must be furious for the lost fifth of range.

I don’t think the MSX limits anything until the battery drops to (not sure, 0 or) 5 GW%, which is when it gives a smooth tilt-back. If the battery stays under that limit for a moment, the tilt-back stays on.

The 15 GW% limit is just a beeping alert.

Edited May 26, 2019 by mrelwood

[eddiemoy]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think any on this thread though.

Your affection towards the % as a measurement unit is slightly adorable.

As has been said, there are a few differing takes on what is the safe ”0%” of a li-ion cell. It is up to the manufacturer to decide what is the last 20%.

Tesla cars don’t charge past ”80%”. You must be furious for the lost fifth of range.

I don’t think the MSX limits anything until the battery drops to (not sure, 0 or) 5 GW%, which is when it gives a smooth tilt-back. If the battery stays under that limit for a moment, the tilt-back stays on.

The 15 GW% limit is just a beeping alert.

The only issue with % is the wrong interpretation by the third party apps.  Not sure what is your issue with %.  

Yes let’s leave it up to GW to tell us what is safe.   So you don’t know when MSX limits?  Would think you know your wheel like the back of you hand.

you definitely have no clue on Tesla.  Not sure where you got the no charge past 80%. Please stop talking about Tesla. LOL

[meepmeepmayer]

Firmware change =/= firmware update. I meant GW could simply change their firmware in new wheels if they wanted to go down to 3.0 by replacing a few numbers. Is that a technical challenge?

The power needed for balancing doesn't change with any internal stuff, so the battery voltage is either enough to provide the power, or not. So either GW needlessly limits too early, or KS are unsafe (in comparison) at low battery levels and might be easily overleaned then. That's how I see it.

I don't think KS can magically get more out of low voltage batteries than GW, at least not without downsides (like current limiting which in the end just drops you off, too).

So much on this topic instead of the 16X. Maybe we need a dedicated "Kingsong vs. Gotway: 3, 2 ,1 , FIGHT!" containment thread

[eddiemoy]

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Firmware change =/= firmware update. I meant GW could simply change their firmware in new wheels if they wanted to go down to 3.0 by replacing a few numbers. Is that a technical challenge?

The power needed for balancing doesn't change with any internal stuff, so the battery voltage is either enough to provide the power, or not. So either GW needlessly limits too early, or KS are unsafe (in comparison) at low battery levels and might be easily overleaned then. That's how I see it.

I don't think KS can magically get more out of low voltage batteries than GW, at least not without downsides (like current limiting which in the end just drops you off, too).

So much on this topic instead of the 16X. Maybe we need a dedicated "Kingsong vs. Gotway: 3, 2 ,1 , FIGHT!" containment thread

OK, you were just saying it was simple for GW to change their firmware in house and nothing about how to get it to the riders.  Got it.  How silly of me to assume that it also meant getting it into the hands of the people who own and use the wheel.  

Yes, getting a little off topic.  

Would definitely be interested in what the actual range is for the 16X.

@Marty Backe, when you do the testing can you please use a third party app like strata to measure how much miles you have gone.  I know the wheel apps are not accurate.

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

OK, you were just saying it was simple for GW to change their firmware in house and nothing about how to get it to the riders.  Got it.  How silly of me to assume that it also meant getting it into the hands of the people who own and use the wheel.  

Yes, getting a little off topic.  

Would definitely be interested in what the actual range is for the 16X.

@Marty Backe, when you do the testing can you please use a third party app like strata to measure how much miles you have gone.  I know the wheel apps are not accurate.

 

I never use the wheel apps. I record all my rides with a very reliable GPS app.

Yes, I'm very interested in what kind of range I get on the 16X when I ride it on my standard range test track.

[Unventor]

I agree very much with @meepmeepmayer, let's this go back to info about KS16X and leave the word war of KS vs GW behind please. 🤐

Personally I couldn't give a rats a... about battery % and voltage. Nor if it does 45 or 50 kmh. 

To me it is all about ride comfort 🥴 and feeling and behaviour of the wheel. 🤤

So how well does it cushion bumps and how is the weight balance, breaking and acceleration feel. These are something we unfortunately do not see in spec sheet, but hopefully @Marty Backecan share some light with his first test.

OK so I might be a slight of a fan boy trusting that KS gets this right and messing up things badly. But I badly like to have a second wheel that is both as good as my KS18L is IMHO yet different but not to different 🙄 (if you get what I mean). 

So I hope it breaks better than my KS18L and that KS do decide to make a seat after all. 

The sad part is the teaser part pull out video showing option of side stickers. On a Russian forum of ecodrift I read KS will not be doing that 😞, which I think is sad as I love to see diversity of loos and colours. Same goes with a cover for the wheel. 

I guess KS didn't see the 🤑 of accessory to this design... yet. 

I do hope they make a 1 step trolley instead of the 2 step of KS18L, in favour of the stability of the trolley but time will tell. 

[Unventor]

I found the forum I wrote about earlier. 

I feel almost like "reading"comics books... Looking at pictures... and using browser translation 😁

https://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=58041.0

There are some pictures showing the inside structure of the case, that I found interesting. More that word war of battery use. But maybe that is just me. 

Another interesting part is they call it 17X.

[meepmeepmayer]

Not sure what to think about this new pedal.