KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Unventor]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Does it really matter at the end of the day. I just round to 1600wh. Same with the Tesla, Z10, and V10F. Personally, I describe them all as 1000wh wheels. Close enough.

I somewhat agree with you on this point. On thing is what a spec sheet states, another thing is what that translate into in practice and ride behavior/comfort/usable range and so on. 

Any news on when delivery is due to you @Marty Backe? It must be close now.

I wish I had a dealer/demo opertunity somewhere near me, but I doubt that happening. 

[Marty Backe]

58 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I somewhat agree with you on this point. On thing is what a spec sheet states, another thing is what that translate into in practice and ride behavior/comfort/usable range and so on. 

Any news on when delivery is due to you @Marty Backe? It must be close now.

I wish I had a dealer/demo opertunity somewhere near me, but I doubt that happening. 

I just got word that KingSong is shipping at the end of next week. So it's getting close. Looks like I'll be getting the Nikola and 16X within the same week. Perfect timing for comparisons.

[Kens]

24 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I just got word that KingSong is shipping at the end of next week. So it's getting close. Looks like I'll be getting the Nikola and 16X within the same week. Perfect timing for comparisons.

Two new wheels on the same time? ? That seems a lot of work.. Must be hard for you 

I'm always around the area if you need something like holding the 16X while you filming the Nikola 

[Garrie Lim]

M

3 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Wait, how is 72V rounded up to 84V for marketing?  <1500Wh to  to 1600Wh.  Neither of these is rounding... if true it's lying.

There are two ways of determining what kind of system an electric vehicle is. Either using the traditional 3.6V nominal or 3.7 nominal. 

I use 3.6V because nominal, represents a middle value. A typical 18650 cell has a full charge of 4.2V and a safe cut off at 3.0V. So the middle ground is 3.6V. Yes I’m pedantic like that

 

The question how Gotway and kingsong comes up with the 1600wh is simple. 

If I use 3.7 nominal, then for a 20S system, it would be 20 x 3.7 = 74.0V

74V x 21ah(also rounded up from 20.7v) =1554watt hr

 

And then this value is once AGAIN rounded up to 1600watthrs. 

As for why should we even be bothered with these numbers is that being humans, we tend to make decisions based on certain information, if I can make a Wheel seem more than another, then the customer is more likely to buy it because it seems more.

if you compare 1490 vs 1600 watt hrs, which would you prefer?

 

if you didn’t know any info you would be led to believe that one is better than the other. It is only natural.

For me, I always preferred 

1. Voltage(3.6v nominal), Ah

2. Knowing v and ah allows me

to calculate an accurate watt hr

3. I need to know what type of cell as well

4. Knowing the cell allows me to find the cell data sheet

 

This is just me, if others feel it’s not important then so be it. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Garrie Lim

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Kens said:

Two new wheels on the same time? ? That seems a lot of work.. Must be hard for you 

I'm always around the area if you need something like holding the 16X while you filming the Nikola 

I'm going to use the Nikola and 16X to practice these skills ...

 

[Unventor]

25 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm going to use the Nikola and 16X to practice these skills ...

 

In that case... Prepare for split personality 😁

[Dzlchef]

46 minutes ago, Unventor said:

In that case... Prepare for split personality 😁

I think a couple other things would be split if he tried! 

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I think a couple other things would be split if he tried! 

Hey! Where's your faith in my ability?

[Mike Paolini]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I just got word that KingSong is shipping at the end of next week. So it's getting close. Looks like I'll be getting the Nikola and 16X within the same week. Perfect timing for comparisons.

@Marty Backe  Great to hear!  

 I believe I get the KS16X after you and am hoping for a weekend where I can gather many riders together - I'd appreciate as much forewarning as I can get for that to pass on as much advanced noticed for the Austin/Dallas/Houston/San Antonio crowds as I can.   I'll shoot you my email in a PM.

[Dzlchef]

39 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Hey! Where's your faith in my ability?

I was talking about your jeans because of the awesome splits you can do!

[eddiemoy]

2 hours ago, Garrie Lim said:

M

There are two ways of determining what kind of system an electric vehicle is. Either using the traditional 3.6V nominal or 3.7 nominal. 

I use 3.6V because nominal, represents a middle value. A typical 18650 cell has a full charge of 4.2V and a safe cut off at 3.0V. So the middle ground is 3.6V. Yes I’m pedantic like that

 

The question how Gotway and kingsong comes up with the 1600wh is simple. 

If I use 3.7 nominal, then for a 20S system, it would be 20 x 3.7 = 74.0V

74V x 21ah(also rounded up from 20.7v) =1554watt hr

 

And then this value is once AGAIN rounded up to 1600watthrs. 

As for why should we even be bothered with these numbers is that being humans, we tend to make decisions based on certain information, if I can make a Wheel seem more than another, then the customer is more likely to buy it because it seems more.

if you compare 1490 vs 1600 watt hrs, which would you prefer?

 

if you didn’t know any info you would be led to believe that one is better than the other. It is only natural.

For me, I always preferred 

1. Voltage(3.6v nominal), Ah

2. Knowing v and ah allows me

to calculate an accurate watt hr

3. I need to know what type of cell as well

4. Knowing the cell allows me to find the cell data sheet

 

This is just me, if others feel it’s not important then so be it. 

Garrie,  I'm not sure where you got the 20.7v from...  I think you need to explain to the lay person that each cell also has 3.5ah.  6 parallel packs give you 21ah.  again not sure where the 20.7v is from.  

You are also right that the numbers don't really mean anything.  Both the MSX and 18XL have 1554wh battery, but @Marty Backe was able to get a lot more range out of the 18XL.  

@Marty Backe, what were the final miles you got for both wheels?

 

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm going to use the Nikola and 16X to practice these skills ...

 

You’re lucky that Flickr is currently down. 

[Garrie Lim]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

Garrie,  I'm not sure where you got the 20.7v from...  I think you need to explain to the lay person that each cell also has 3.5ah.  6 parallel packs give you 21ah.  again not sure where the 20.7v is from.  

You are also right that the numbers don't really mean anything.  Both the MSX and 18XL have 1554wh battery, but @Marty Backe was able to get a lot more range out of the 18XL.  

@Marty Backe, what were the final miles you got for both wheels?

 

The Panasonic/Sanyo GA cell is a 3.45ah cell. Not a 3.5ah cell

So 6P is 20.7ah

Like I said, I’m interested in accuracy and not rounding everything up. And I really cannot understand why wheel manufacturers only state full charge voltage and a rounded up watt hrs. 

Its like buying a car and the only information provided to us is how far it can go on a tank of gas. It doesn’t tell us engine capacity or fuel tank capacity etc. 

[Garrie Lim]

Similarly, Kingsong recently “changed” or “upgraded” its ks16X motor specs to 2200w from 2000w.

To the lay person, it might seem like an upgrade or an improvement (compared to nikola). 

 

However if you understand continuous power and peak power, then this 2200w change doesn’t really mean much.

The continuous power rating is just a gauge of how a motor can run without overheating. 2000w vs 2200w is no big deal. 

The peak motor power is the maximum power the wheel can deliver at every specific point of time from the current voltage multiplied by the total amps the controller/motherboard is rated at. 

 

So there is another taking point for this when people do not know what all these numbers mean. Just like 1490whr vs 1554whr vs 1600whr 

[Garrie Lim]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

Garrie,  I'm not sure where you got the 20.7v from...  I think you need to explain to the lay person that each cell also has 3.5ah.  6 parallel packs give you 21ah.  again not sure where the 20.7v is from.  

You are also right that the numbers don't really mean anything.  Both the MSX and 18XL have 1554wh battery, but @Marty Backe was able to get a lot more range out of the 18XL.  

@Marty Backe, what were the final miles you got for both wheels?

 

I’m sure we all can agree on that range is determined by a lot of factors such as riding style, terrain, environmental temperature etc. 

 

It’s  hard to replicate exact conditions even if you tried to

I prefer to estimate my range by going for a long ride around 30-50km. And measuring the voltage used using a voltmeter. And then getting a rough distance per volt reading. 

For 72V(84v) systems, you have 84V to 60V to play with. A total of 24V. 

If you average about 6km per volt then you can calculate you can ride about 6x24=144km

Multiply that by a factor of 0.85 to compensate for efficiency and voltage sag(voltage doesn’t drop linearly, but sigmoid-ly), we can say that if we go at a certain constant speed over flat terrain, we can get about 120km.  

Edited May 25, 2019 by Garrie Lim

[eddiemoy]

13 minutes ago, Garrie Lim said:

The Panasonic/Sanyo GA cell is a 3.45ah cell. Not a 3.5ah cell

So 6P is 20.7ah

Like I said, I’m interested in accuracy and not rounding everything up. And I really cannot understand why wheel manufacturers only state full charge voltage and a rounded up watt hrs. 

Its like buying a car and the only information provided to us is how far it can go on a tank of gas. It doesn’t tell us engine capacity or fuel tank capacity etc. 

As far as I know, KS was using LGEBMJ11865 cells and they are nominally 3500ah.  So maybe that is why GW gets bad miles since they are using inferior cells?

 

[eddiemoy]

4 minutes ago, Garrie Lim said:

I’m sure we all can agree on that range is determined by a lot of factors such as riding style, terrain, environmental temperature etc. 

 

It’s  hard to replicate exact conditions even if you tried to

I prefer to estimate my range by going for a long ride around 30-50km. And measuring the voltage used using a voltmeter. And then getting a rough distance per volt reading. 

For 72V(84v) systems, you have 84V to 60V to play with. A total of 24V. 

If you average about 6km per volt then you can calculate you can ride about 6x24=144km

Multiply that by a factor of 0.85 to compensate for efficiency and voltage sag(voltage doesn’t drop linearly, but sigmoid-ly), we can say that if we go at a certain constant speed over flat terrain, we can get about 120km.  

I would say if marty had a huge minor difference, I would say it could be due to some variance of how he was riding, etc.  But from what i understand the difference was huge.  @Marty Backe would be able to provide the details.  but it was a few miles difference. 

[Garrie Lim]

2 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

As far as I know, KS was using LGEBMJ11865 cells and they are nominally 3500ah.  So maybe that is why GW gets bad miles since they are using inferior cells?

 

If it is using LG mj1 then yes it is a 3.5ah cell then 6P would be 21ah. 

 

But it I wouldn’t call the Panasonic/Sanyo GA inferior though 😝😝😝

[eddiemoy]

2 minutes ago, Garrie Lim said:

If it is using LG mj1 then yes it is a 3.5ah cell then 6P would be 21ah. 

 

But it I wouldn’t call the Panasonic/Sanyo GA inferior though 😝😝😝

Here is marty's KS18XL range test.  he comments about having 20% left after 60 miles of riding.  last few minutes of the video he comments on it.  Plus Marty is on the heavy side.  180lbs with the gear on.

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

I would say if marty had a huge minor difference, I would say it could be due to some variance of how he was riding, etc.  But from what i understand the difference was huge.  @Marty Backe would be able to provide the details.  but it was a few miles difference. 

It is hard to quantify exactly, but after multiple runs with the XL I feel comfortable saying that the XL gets ~10-percent more range than the MSX. Maybe it's 5 to 10 percent. But the bottom line is that the XL gets better gas mileage. I would say that equates to 3 to 5 more miles. I'm not sure that's a huge difference, but it's not nothing 

I may try a formal range test again, but these are 5+ hour rides. That's a big chunk of time and you're not having quite as much fun as you'd like because you are sticking to an identical route with nearly the same speeds. It's almost like a job 

[Dave U]

29 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

That's a big chunk of time and you're not having quite as much fun as you'd like because you are sticking to an identical route with nearly the same speeds.

Suggestion, ride both wheels at the same time. One rider on the MXS and the other on the XL. The lighter rider will make up the difference in weight via wearing a backpack making up the difference in weight. I think a loop between Santa Fe Dam via Rio Hondo River Bike Trail to Long Beach through Seal Beach and back up the San Gabriel River Bike Trail will equate to roughly 60 through 75 miles? The loser takes UBER back to the starting point.  The winner enjoys another 3+ miles.

[Marty Backe]

30 minutes ago, Dave U said:

Suggestion, ride both wheels at the same time. One rider on the MXS and the other on the XL. The lighter rider will make up the difference in weight via wearing a backpack making up the difference in weight. I think a loop between Santa Fe Dam via Rio Hondo River Bike Trail to Long Beach through Seal Beach and back up the San Gabriel River Bike Trail will equate to roughly 60 through 75 miles? The loser takes UBER back to the starting point.  The winner enjoys another 3+ miles.

Good suggestion - particularly the Uber part 

Actually, the loop from the Stonewood Center up to the little water fall and back is 60+ miles. It's easy to find another 10-miles.

Something to keep in mind.

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

It is hard to quantify exactly, but after multiple runs with the XL I feel comfortable saying that the XL gets ~10-percent more range than the MSX. Maybe it's 5 to 10 percent. But the bottom line is that the XL gets better gas mileage. I would say that equates to 3 to 5 more miles. I'm not sure that's a huge difference, but it's not nothing 

I may try a formal range test again, but these are 5+ hour rides. That's a big chunk of time and you're not having quite as much fun as you'd like because you are sticking to an identical route with nearly the same speeds. It's almost like a job 

Marty, I believe your latest video you did comparing it to the msv3+, you were only comparing it up to 57% left on msv3?  Vs 68% o the 18XL.  getting 11% difference, so assuming would be 20% if you run the battery down?  ~14 miles difference.  70miles for 18XL and only high 50’s for msx/msv3?   

[Marty Backe]

23 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Marty, I believe your latest video you did comparing it to the msv3+, you were only comparing it up to 57% left on msv3?  Vs 68% o the 18XL.  getting 11% difference, so assuming would be 20% if you run the battery down?  ~14 miles difference.  70miles for 18XL and only high 50’s for msx/msv3?   

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but I need to truly run the XL down to 5% battery to really know the difference. Maybe sometime in the next couple of months I'll do a test with @Dave U where we ride together on the two wheels. That would be the best. What do you think your riding weight is @Dave U?

[Dave U]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but I need to truly run the XL down to 5% battery to really know the difference. Maybe sometime in the next couple of months I'll do a test with @Dave U where we ride together on the two wheels. That would be the best. What do you think your riding weight is @Dave U?

I'm currently weighing in at 190 Lbs, Looks like you're strapping on a 10 Lbs backpack   but you gave me enough time to lose 10 Lbs. I'll take the XL, Lets do this!