KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[meepmeepmayer]

The key to a good calibration is a) most importantly, NOT having the wheel tilted sideways during the entire calibration b) having the wheel still during the entire calibration. Maybe try another calibration? This dipping/raising stuff really shouldn't happen!

[Mike Paolini]

1 hour ago, CampDylan said:

Can you please explain how to do this to a noob?  I’m waiting on mine, ship speed, and it will be my first wheel ever.  I’m compiling  “how-to” notes before mine arrives, thanks!

@CampDylan

 

There is a settings page in the App for this.  Horizontal Calibration.  It will give you some instructions about the power button.   You hit confirm, power off the EUC, Long press it on for beeps, and more beeps like holding it exactly level and upgright.   Then shut it off and turn it back on again.

Also remember it ships software locked, and you must use the App to unlock it on the first screen.   There is a silver sticker on the top referencing this, and I completely missed it until US69 pointed it out - probably because the first part of it is written in Chinese so I skipped all of it.

 

[Mike Paolini]

10 minutes ago, magicrobots said:

Just rode out to grab lunch and got both behaviors, but only at the beginning of the ride. Wonder if it takes a mile or so for the gyro sensors to "warm up" or something.

At the end of a long straight I was crossing the street and when I slowed for the curb cut, it tilted me back far on my heels and stayed there until I was going straight on the sidewalk again.

Then I went down a slight hill onto a dirt path, it dropped my toes for a few moments. 

 super disconcerting

@magicrobots

That sounds right to me.   All the times it has occurred have been less than 5 mins into riding I think.    One of those though, the wheel had been on and ridden a while, and I had stored it on its' side for about 10 mins.   I remember thinking if it took a while to level.

However the ride at <10mph where it occurred, I had already zipped down the hill, hit a stop sign, turned right and gone 2 blocks on straight and level and smooth when it occurred.   So again within say 10 mins of turning it on, but certainly it was working normally at the time prior till.

On the other hand just got back from a 7 mile ride, where it did not occur ( but I was cruising between 10-20 most of the way).

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Do these brake lights actually exist?

[Mike Paolini]

4 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Do these brake lights actually exist?

Yes, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how they work.  They just seem to randomly go off or blink.    Tried to figure it out yesterday with Jermey and failed.

[Mike Paolini]

9 hours ago, stephen said:

Come on guys do some hill tests 😁

@stephen I live on hills that have caused KS16S to fail to climb them.  This has no problems with my Hills in 108 degree heat with a 222 pound (plus gear) rider on it

[meepmeepmayer]

Just now, Mike Paolini said:

Yes, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how they work.  They just seem to randomly go off or blink.    Tried to figure it out yesterday with Jermey and failed.

This is hilarious. EUCs are like Alien artifacts, we have to figure out how the mysterious lights work and what they mean

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Maybe like my BMW... 

Off = driving forward 

On = normal braking 

Flashing = hard braking 

Always off = broken  

Edited July 31, 2019 by buell47

[Dave U]

7 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

Yes, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how they work.  They just seem to randomly go off or blink.    Tried to figure it out yesterday with Jermey and failed.

They might be used as turn signals as well as a brake light. Have someone follow you from behind and do a stop to see if the brake lights (both light up) goes on and then do a left turn to see if only the left red lights blink? and so on.If you are moving i believe they remain off.

[Mike Paolini]

@buell47

 I uploaded a quick clip I made from the first day first ride, and used a section where they seemed to be working correctly.   I think what was throwing us yesterday was it was a tight area and they seem to stay of for a few seconds after breaking now that I watch the video.  (Also they seem more an idea than an execution - I doubt anyone behind me would actually see them because they are so low and recessed. 
 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Mike Paolini

[Unventor]

I would expect next app release might have some configuration on the break light indicator function.

So you are there is nothing in the manual about this. Yes I know they normally not worth anythings. But maybe this one time? 

[Rehab1]

6 hours ago, Scatcat said:

No Rehab1 no, don't go into the light!

I should have caught your response before boarding the plane. You never told me that I would become sick. 

[magicrobots]

1 hour ago, Mike Paolini said:

@magicrobots

That sounds right to me.   All the times it has occurred have been less than 5 mins into riding I think.    One of those though, the wheel had been on and ridden a while, and I had stored it on its' side for about 10 mins.   I remember thinking if it took a while to level.

Just happened again to me on a narrow sidewalk on a bridge and nearly tossed me off the side of the bridge.

The whole ride home I had given up on the wheel, no trust, can't enjoy it, gonna sell it, get an 18xl, I hate this thing.

Then halfway home I loved it again.

Definitely an abusive relationship.

Also - I'm at 107 miles - are we thinking that weird behavior might go away at about 125 miles / 200km?  *crosses fingers*

Edited July 31, 2019 by magicrobots

[BleepBloopBlop]

1 hour ago, magicrobots said:

Also - I'm at 107 miles - are we thinking that weird behavior might go away at about 125 miles / 200km?  *crosses fingers*

How many days have you had your 16X? Good job getting out and using it! 

[Jon Stern]

I just went for a lunchtime ride. I was getting the random tiltback (and one or two tilt forwards) every couple of minutes. Frequently at very, very low speeds. See the photo for the kind of tilt I'm getting. This is persisting after I stop and on times slowly drifted back to level. Other times, I cycled the power.

I tried changing the riding mode from "Experiment" to "Riding". Same behavior.

I tried changing the "Warping Speed" setting incase the setting hadn't correctly been received by the wheel (I suspect there's no handshaking between the app and the wheel). No difference.

Tried lowing the last alarm and warping speed, but then got annoyed by the alarm and set it back up again. For some random reason, I was able to ride for 10-15 mins without any random tiltback.

I thought maybe the issue had gone away and it was some kind of warping setting reception error, but then while at my desk with no motion, the wheel tilted back once more.

As it is, the wheel is close to unrideable. I suspect it's a firmware-related issue, but I don't know if this is on KingSongs' radar (@US69 @Kuji Rolls?).

Edited August 1, 2019 by Jon Stern

[meepmeepmayer]

Might this be a side effect of the oscillation fix?

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

On 12/29/2018 at 10:51 PM, Jean Dublin said:

Real Range Tests:

None available yet, as soon as I see any I'll share the details or link here. If you already have a 16X, please do a range test and share it (PM me to let me know, so I can put it here). 

I have added the above to the first post.

I'm seeing all kinds of "Range" on Specs descriptions by KingSong and dealers, from 100km to 160km.

Who will be the first to do a real life range test? @magicrobots @Mike Paolini @BleepBloopBlop @chrisjunlee @Jon Stern

@Patton250@Patton250 @HarpMudd@Daniel-Son

Please ideally provide:

Load (rider + gear/backpack), Temperature, road conditions, amount of hills, riding style (relaxed, aggressive), average speed (GPS recording even better, for example, "GPS Speed" for Android is good). Any other details you see relevant. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Jean Dublin

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

I just went for a lunchtime ride. I was getting the random tiltback (and one or two tilt forwards) every couple of minutes. Frequently at very, very low speeds. See the photo for the kind of tilt I'm getting. This is persisting after I stop and on times slowly drifted back to level. Other times, I cycled the power.

I tried changing the rided mode from "Experiment" to "Riding". Same behavior.

I tried changing the "Warping Speed" setting incase the setting hadn't correctly been received by the wheel (I suspect there's no handshaking between the app and the wheel). No difference.

Tried lowing the last alarm and warping speed, but then got annoyed by the alarm and set it back up again. For some random reason, I was able to ride for 10-15 mins without any random tiltback.

I thought maybe the issue had gone away and it was some kind of warping setting reception error, but then while at my desk with no motion, the wheel tilted back once more.

As it is, the wheel is close to unrideable. I suspect it's a firmware-related issue, but I don't know if this is on KingSongs' radar (@US69 @Kuji Rolls?).

Some form of this happens with my Z10. Some other Z10 owners experience it and some don't. So it's not firmware. I'm convinced it's due to the use of a low quality part. If I were the only person to experience it, that the problem is due to a random failure. But since many people have the same problem, it's poor design or component selection.

Until others report the same problem I would have to assume you have bad hardware.

11 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Might this be a side effect of the oscillation fix?

Only if every 16X owner has the same problem.

[Mike Paolini]

1 hour ago, magicrobots said:

Just happened again to me on a narrow sidewalk on a bridge and nearly tossed me off the side of the bridge.

The whole ride home I had given up on the wheel, no trust, can't enjoy it, gonna sell it, get an 18xl, I hate this thing.

Then halfway home I loved it again.

Definitely an abusive relationship.

Also - I'm at 107 miles - are we thinking that weird behavior might go away at about 125 miles / 200km?  *crosses fingers*

 

23 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

I just went for a lunchtime ride. I was getting the random tiltback (and one or two tilt forwards) every couple of minutes. Frequently at very, very low speeds. See the photo for the kind of tilt I'm getting. This is persisting after I stop and on times slowly drifted back to level. Other times, I cycled the power.

I tried changing the rided mode from "Experiment" to "Riding". Same behavior.

I tried changing the "Warping Speed" setting incase the setting hadn't correctly been received by the wheel (I suspect there's no handshaking between the app and the wheel). No difference.

Tried lowing the last alarm and warping speed, but then got annoyed by the alarm and set it back up again. For some random reason, I was able to ride for 10-15 mins without any random tiltback.

I thought maybe the issue had gone away and it was some kind of warping setting reception error, but then while at my desk with no motion, the wheel tilted back once more.

As it is, the wheel is close to unrideable. I suspect it's a firmware-related issue, but I don't know if this is on KingSongs' radar (@US69 @Kuji Rolls?).

@magicrobots @Jon Stern - I wasn't able to reproduce it on my lunch ride, though I was 10-20 mph mostly.

So this really seems to be a low speed high torque kind of thing?  Sort of the inverse of the Kuji problem.  I can't help but wonder if the issue he found was a high frequency version of this - where our peddles tilt back slowly and only for a few seconds, perhaps his were rapidly tilting and untiling causing that front to back oscillation?

In any case, keep logging the data and trying to narrow the recreation scenarios (and Jon if you get in a situation where you keep having it recreate like that, grab screen shots of the stats on the device and check the errors section please!  As annoying as that may be, recreation is the fastest way to debug and fix such a thing).   I sent snap shots of your posts here to Jason over at eWheels.com to make him aware, along with my own 4 experiences with this. 

I've got another buddy here in Austin that just had his show up, I'll get him trying to reproduce it also on Thursday when I see him.

 

12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Some form of this happens with my Z10. Some other Z10 owners experience it and some don't. So it's not firmware. I'm convinced it's due to the use of a low quality part. If I were the only person to experience it, that the problem is due to a random failure. But since many people have the same problem, it's poor design or component selection.

Until others report the same problem I would have to assume you have bad hardware.

I hope not.  :-(

[Mike Paolini]

15 minutes ago, Jean Dublin said:

I have added the above to the first post.

I'm seeing all kinds of "Range" on Specs descriptions by KingSong and dealers, from 100km to 160km.

Who will be the first to do a real life range test? @magicrobots @Mike Paolini @BleepBloopBlop @chrisjunlee @Jon Stern

@Patton250

Please ideally provide:

Load (rider + gear/backpack), Temperature, road conditions, amount of hills, riding style (relaxed, aggressive), average speed (GPS recording even better, for example, "GPS Speed" for Android is good). Any other details you see relevant. 

@Jean Dublin - it's unlike to be for at least a week or two.  My legs are pretty shot from the last few days to the point where I'm really wobbly when breaking.  This old man needs time to recover.

[Mike Paolini]

26 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Might this be a side effect of the oscillation fix?

Fix isn't released to us yet - best guess will be Friday right now from what I hear.

Ideally that fix also fixes this, but who knows these these blackboxes and the opposite of logging they have.   (Man it would be nice if they had log mode like drone flight records so we could see what the inputs and outputs were).

[erk1024]

6 hours ago, CampDylan said:

Can you please explain how to do this to a noob?

When you do the calibration, you want the wheel to be level (both front and back and side to side). And you don't want the wheel to be moving around while you're doing it. I usually level it with a leveling app on my phone and use gaffer's tape to hold it still (against a vertical post) while I do the calibration. 

Advanced: Some riders like some front-to-back tilt while they are riding, so they will tilt it a few degrees on purpose. But best to experiment with that later when you have more experience.

On my 18XL, there is not a great place to check if the wheel is level, so I use the pedals. The pedals have a side to side tilt, so you have to account for that.

Edited July 31, 2019 by erk1024

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

53 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

@Jean Dublin - it's unlike to be for at least a week or two.  My legs are pretty shot from the last few days to the point where I'm really wobbly when breaking.  This old man needs time to recover.

Sure, take a break

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Some form of this happens with my Z10. Some other Z10 owners experience it and some don't. So it's not firmware. I'm convinced it's due to the use of a low quality part. If I were the only person to experience it, that the problem is due to a random failure. But since many people have the same problem, it's poor design or component selection.

Until others report the same problem I would have to assume you have bad hardware.

Only if every 16X owner has the same problem.

It's not necessarily a hardware issue. These days there are so many interactions between hardware and firmware.

What if the firmware is missing a gyro self-calibration function? Or what if the firmware is accidentally activating gyro self-calibration at the wrong time? What if the firmware is tuned for typical gyro behavior and hasn't been correctly set up to account for part-to-part gyro variability (golden vs limit samples)?

Of course there's also the potential for something like a missing factory-level calibration process, and that would be indistinguishable from a hardware issue and it wouldn't be correctable in the field.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

It's not necessarily a hardware issue. These days there are so many interactions between hardware and firmware.

What if the firmware is missing a gyro self-calibration function? Or what if the firmware is accidentally activating gyro self-calibration at the wrong time? What if the firmware is tuned for typical gyro behavior and hasn't been correctly set up to account for part-to-part gyro variability (golden vs limit samples)?

Of course there's also the potential for something like a missing factory-level calibration process, and that would be indistinguishable from a hardware issue and it wouldn't be correctable in the field.

I wish that were the case with my Z10