KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Patton250]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think the KS fans at this forum are that quiet. 

 

 

Disregarding the word stupid, heck yeah. And they have been trying to repair their mistakes with several bug fixes already. As you have noticed, the FW is already at 1.06 just a few months after release. People seemed to be perfectly happy with the speed limits that the engineers originally put in place, it’s the limiting introduced in the sixth bug fix that people have issues with.

 

That is it’s intended purpose, yes. Just like bicycle helmets. Yet some people feel that using a helmet is more dangerous in traffic since cars will not give you as much space. Nothing’s black & white.

You are wrong.

1) A 250 pound man ”flooring it” at 25mph can overlean any wheel at any battery level, regardless of how the low battery speed limits are set.

2) KS decided to publish a wheel with certain limits, and were likely as happy with the limits as their customers were. Then they heard that five people had overleaned on the 16X, under circumstances that they haven’t shared. Despite manufacturing an inherently dangerous vehicle that requires a lot of experience and understanding of various riding scenarios from the rider, they dislike people falling on their vehicles so much that they decide to lower the original limits from every wheel made both since and up to that moment, in hoping that nobody would crash on a KS.

They also decreased the performance of hundreds of wheels they had already sold. That’s the part I have most trouble with. ”Here, buy a wheel, it competes with the best wheels on the market! Thank you for the money! Btw, it doesn’t compete with the best ones anymore.”

 

Every EUC rider must learn that one can never ”floor it” on an EUC, especially at 25mph. I believe that wether the tiltback would start at 33 or 29mph makes very little difference to the big guy eating it or not.

If fast acceleration is the issue, make limits react to acceleration! I have no trouble riding at 30mph with 5% battery at steady speed on the MSX, and the pedals feel as firm as ever. But one has to understand that riding a low battery is very different than a full battery, and the places where it’s safe to go fast on one are limited. If the rider doesn’t understand that he can’t ride aggressively on a low battery, he can overlean the wheel at 15mph. Lowering the speed limit to 10mph is not the solution.

Thanks man. This all makes sense now except the helmet analogy. That’s just people trying to prove Darwin correct. 

So it seems KS’s biggest thing is safety. I have a solution. How about an electronic waiver? They email you a waiver document that you have to get signed by a lawyer as a witness waiving all your rights to sue them or the retailer that sold you the wheel if you destroy your head/ face / over all body and once they receive it they will issue you a private firmware update that will remove all throttling. There you go. Easy. :-)

Would that be satisfactory?  It seems to me that would work. Then beginner riders could keep the firmware where it is until they get experienced and then they could request the private firmware update after waving their rights to sue. Everyone would be happy. The experienced rider we get the speed they wanted, the beginner riders would have the safety and KS and their distribution partners would not have to worry about being sued.

[Patton250]

6 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Been a while since I've dropped in this thread. I just hit 1000 miles today on the 16X. And my 💥 Nikola 100V+ is still at 975 miles.

For all the drama around this, I want to stress this point: The 16X is a fine 25 mph wheel. 

I believe Kingsong is having issues with power delivery once the back EMF gets high enough - Gotway seems to be ahead in that regard. IMHO, I believe this is a hardware issue, not a firmware issue. 

I would advise Kingsong to just make the marketing message clearer: this is a *max* 25 mph wheel (ankle dippable). My recommended cruising speed is 22 mph. Anything faster is for straight smooth surfaces only. 

If you want something safer at higher speeds, the answer is Gotway. 

If you already purchased the wheel, well, Kingsong already has your money. Their attitude towards this and slow firmware approach reflects how little incentive they have for us on the forums.

I'll make this simple, here's a flow chart:

Well my friend I own both wheels. I own the 16X and the 100V Nikola Plus. Believe me I love the Nikola but the 16X is remarkably superior when it comes to stability and ride smoothness IMO. The 16X may not go 40MPH but the petals are so hard on the Nikola you practically have to lean it with all your weight to get it to go past 30 mph. That’s just not comfortable or fun. Plus that wheel does not feel comfortable at high-speed’s like the 16X does. 

[chrisjunlee]

4 hours ago, Patton250 said:

Well my friend I own both wheels. I own the 16X and the 100V Nikola Plus. Believe me I love the Nikola but the 16X is remarkably superior when it comes to stability and ride smoothness IMO. The 16X may not go 40MPH but the petals are so hard on the Nikola you practically have to lean it with all your weight to get it to go past 30 mph. That’s just not comfortable or fun. Plus that wheel does not feel comfortable at high-speed’s like the 16X does. 

Hardness = the motor being strong at high speed, unlike the 16x which can barely remain hard at 25 mph.

Stability at high speed: even with the CX tire?

[Patton250]

57 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Hardness = the motor being strong at high speed, unlike the 16x which can barely remain hard at 25 mph.

Stability at high speed: even with the CX tire?

Dude lol. You and I have different 16x’s. Lol. Very different. 

[CampDylan]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:23 AM, Nathan Gosamo said:

still don’t know how to ride past 25kmh/15mph as you might expect, the wheel wobbles because I’m still new at this. How do I deal with this ? I tried to squeeze the wheel harder with my legs but it still wobbles.

I’m a new rider too, 5 days into mine with fw 1.05.  Initially with 35psi I found that a duck-footed stance (toes out) worked pretty good with the heels touching the body.  Couple days later I tried the feet way out from the body, about 2”, and not so duck-footed - THIS!   I not only find that riding  at higher speeds is more stable but also controlling it at very low speed‘s and enabling me to make sharper turns with more stability.   Just yesterday and today my confidence level has grown protractedly since I was able to figure out how to unlock the higher speeds and I am now comfortably riding at 24 mph 38.6kmh) max .   However, at that speed I get an occasional slow wobble that feels a little disconcerting but even that I’m becoming more comfortable with. 

 Initially my tire would not hold air very well at all, I would have 35 PSI and then by the end of the day to drop down to about 13 or 15. I bought some of that inner-tube armor goop, pumped in there and now it holds pretty good a few days in and I’ve only lost 5 pounds pressure.  

[CampDylan]

18 hours ago, RetroThruster said:

I received mine on Monday (the 23rd)) and it came with 1.05, I'm still new but see no reason to change it til maybe the 1.07 comes.

I’m keeping mine at 1.05 as well, so far so good.   From what I remember, the main issues that they were addressing with the upgrade was to better control the speed wobbles with very hard braking (after strong acceleration),  and also a problem with playing Bluetooth music while riding?  Unfortunately they also added the speed throttling versus battery voltage. I’m continuing to test as I’m learning my riding habits versus the battery voltage see if it will even affect me should I decide to go ahead and upgrade the firmware.  

[redfoxdude]

2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Hardness = the motor being strong at high speed, unlike the 16x which can barely remain hard at 25 mph.

I personally haven't had issues with it not being "hard."

I also wanted to say that the pedal tilting is not necessarily indicative of the wheel being inherently underpowered. I'm not sure if that's what you are saying, though. Assuming that the motor does have more power available, it could certainly be that the control algorithm may not have a fast enough response to prevent some output error when there is a sharp input such as your pedal flicks, or perhaps a severe pothole or change of incline. Perhaps it's a direct consequence of King Song's overall "softer" pedal feel.

All said, I tried to flick the pedals with my ankles and didn't get tilt. Though maybe I'm a wuss and am not whipping them fast enough. I have been comfortably cruising at ~26-27mph without issues up to this point.

[Tom D]

1 hour ago, CampDylan said:

I’m a new rider too, 5 days into mine with fw 1.05.  Initially with 35psi I found that a duck-footed stance (toes out) worked pretty good with the heels touching the body.  Couple days later I tried the feet way out from the body, about 2”, and not so duck-footed - THIS!   I not only find that riding  at higher speeds is more stable but also controlling it at very low speed‘s and enabling me to make sharper turns with more stability.   Just yesterday and today my confidence level has grown protractedly since I was able to figure out how to unlock the higher speeds and I am now comfortably riding at 24 mph 38.6kmh) max .   However, at that speed I get an occasional slow wobble that feels a little disconcerting but even that I’m becoming more comfortable with. 

 Initially my tire would not hold air very well at all, I would have 35 PSI and then by the end of the day to drop down to about 13 or 15. I bought some of that inner-tube armor goop, pumped in there and now it holds pretty good a few days in and I’ve only lost 5 pounds pressure.  

Dylan - As a fellow Oahu rider, check your tires very carefully for thorns.  As far as flats go, I am probably the king of flats on this forum.  The primary culprit in Hawaii is the Long Thorn Kiawe tree (https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/long-thorn-kiawe/).  I have armored all my wheels with liners and Slime, but these thorns will go through anything.  Over the years I've gotten a lot better at identifying grows and staying clear to mitigate punctures.  I've had two hard falls related to these thorns...air immediately expelled and I went flying.

My point is, inspect your tire very carefully.  I just found a thorn imbedded in my 16X tire last weekend (lost count how many I've picked up).  It was about 1.5" long and buried deep (difficult to see).  I removed it with a letterman and of course lost all my air.  I buy lots of tubes from Jason LoL.  Just wanted to share as you don't want to lose air while cruising at moderate to high speed.  These thorns are brutal and get dispersed widely. 

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, Tom D said:

Dylan - As a fellow Oahu rider, check your tires very carefully for thorns.  As far as flats go, I am probably the king of flats on this forum.  The primary culprit in Hawaii is the Long Thorn Kiawe tree (https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/long-thorn-kiawe/).  I have armored all my wheels with liners and Slime, but these thorns will go through anything.  Over the years I've gotten a lot better at identifying grows and staying clear to mitigate punctures.  I've had two hard falls related to these thorns...air immediately expelled and I went flying.

My point is, inspect your tire very carefully.  I just found a thorn imbedded in my 16X tire last weekend (lost count how many I've picked up).  It was about 1.5" long and buried deep (difficult to see).  I removed it with a letterman and of course lost all my air.  I buy lots of tubes from Jason LoL.  Just wanted to share as you don't want to lose air while cruising at moderate to high speed.  These thorns are brutal and get dispersed widely. 

1.5" thorns. Wow 

The thorns that I get stuck in my tire are usually not long enough to puncture the tube. But sometimes they do. Fortunately Slime has been working for those.

[chrisjunlee]

25 minutes ago, Tom D said:

Dylan - As a fellow Oahu rider, check your tires very carefully for thorns.  As far as flats go, I am probably the king of flats on this forum.  The primary culprit in Hawaii is the Long Thorn Kiawe tree (https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/long-thorn-kiawe/).  I have armored all my wheels with liners and Slime, but these thorns will go through anything.  Over the years I've gotten a lot better at identifying grows and staying clear to mitigate punctures.  I've had two hard falls related to these thorns...air immediately expelled and I went flying.

My point is, inspect your tire very carefully.  I just found a thorn imbedded in my 16X tire last weekend (lost count how many I've picked up).  It was about 1.5" long and buried deep (difficult to see).  I removed it with a letterman and of course lost all my air.  I buy lots of tubes from Jason LoL.  Just wanted to share as you don't want to lose air while cruising at moderate to high speed.  These thorns are brutal and get dispersed widely. 

Wow. They get up to 4” long. Insane.

Maybe there’s armored tires you can look into?

 

[chrisjunlee]

3 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

Assuming that the motor does have more power available, it could certainly be that the control algorithm may not have a fast enough response to prevent some output error when there is a sharp input such as your pedal flicks, or perhaps a severe pothole or change of incline. Perhaps it's a direct consequence of King Song's overall "softer" pedal feel.

Doesn't explain why this doesn't happen at lower speeds.

The only difference between lower and higher speed is back-EMF. That is what I mean by power delivery system. IMHO, Gotway has figured out how to buffer more 'power' at low voltages than Kingsong. Kingsong will never admit to this of course, and maybe they're in a bit of denial.

I've been mentioning this since I noticed this at 300 miles, and noone batted an eye.

There is one thing Kingsong is suppose to excel at: "safety" - well, the Nikola is a much safer wheel by a long shot, simply because at any of the 16X's speed, it does a better job balancing you. That is a fact.

I can't make that clearer to the KS fanboys in here.

"But bruh, it's a feature, Kingsong has softer ride, it's a feature"

Ok, I challenge Kingsong to make a hard riding mode that I can't pedal dip at 25mph. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Patton250]

7 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Doesn't explain why this doesn't happen at lower speeds.

The only difference between lower and higher speed is back-EMF. That is what I mean by power delivery system. IMHO, Gotway has figured out how to buffer more 'power' at low voltages than Kingsong. Kingsong will never admit to this of course, and maybe they're in a bit of denial.

I've been mentioning this since I noticed this at 300 miles, and noone batted an eye.

There is one thing Kingsong is suppose to excel at: "safety" - well, the Nikola is a much safer wheel by a long shot, simply because at any of the 16X's speed, it does a better job balancing you. That is a fact.

I can't make that clearer to the KS fanboys in here.

"But bruh, it's a feature, Kingsong has softer ride, it's a feature"

Ok, I challenge Kingsong to make a hard riding mode that I can't pedal dip at 25mph. 

Um.......ah........ Didn’t your Nikola Plus like blow up causing your group to run away like a hand grenade had just landed? :-) Just saying. Enjoy your 16X while your Nikola is in recovery.

[Patton250]

Just now, chrisjunlee said:

Ouch. 

[Marty Backe]

Let's take it notch down guys 

[Patton250]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Let's take it notch down guys 

I’m sure he’s just kidding. I know I was joking around.

[RockyTop]

This is what I am talking about when I say that Gotway just wants to keep the pedals level even if it take 80 amps to do it. It seems sluggish to some because you feel that you have to lean harder. all you really do is let yourself fall forward then put pressure on your toes and you take off. The KS does this for you by delaying its movement. It lets you get ahead of it then catches you. But the result is soft pedals and the Gotway guys don't like it. 

Both are great!!!!!!   It is all in what you get used to. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by RockyTop

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

This is what I am talking about when I say that Gotway just wants to keep the pedals level even if it take 80 amps to do it. It seems sluggish to some because you feel that you have to lean harder. all you really do is let yourself fall forward then put pressure on your toes and you take off. The KS does this for you by delaying its movement. It lets you get ahead of it then catches you. But the result is soft pedals and the Gotway guys don't like it. 

Both are great!!!!!!   It is all in what you get used to. 

The pedal dipping is sudden and large - not gradual at all. Here's a 30° dip at 25 mph.

This is different than the rubbery band 5° dip you get at lower speeds. This is full on feeling like a free spinning hinge. Furthermore, the resistance lowers as speed increases. 

Note: if this is a feature, I'm not equipped atm to have faith and maintain that lean. I would need a track one-piece suit and track boots.

I'll also like to stress this: I like this wheel. I'm only harping on this to let others be aware of and ride within the limitations of this wheel. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[redfoxdude]

2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Doesn't explain why this doesn't happen at lower speeds.

The only difference between lower and higher speed is back-EMF. That is what I mean by power delivery system. IMHO, Gotway has figured out how to buffer more 'power' at low voltages than Kingsong. Kingsong will never admit to this of course, and maybe they're in a bit of denial.

I've been mentioning this since I noticed this at 300 miles, and noone batted an eye.

There is one thing Kingsong is suppose to excel at: "safety" - well, the Nikola is a much safer wheel by a long shot, simply because at any of the 16X's speed, it does a better job balancing you. That is a fact.

I can't make that clearer to the KS fanboys in here.

"But bruh, it's a feature, Kingsong has softer ride, it's a feature"

Ok, I challenge Kingsong to make a hard riding mode that I can't pedal dip at 25mph. 

Maybe? The system may need to be adjusted to account for a different response at higher wheel speeds. I get your point, but I'm not completely convinced that firmware improvements couldn't help. Not trying to defend King Song.. My experience with the wheel has also been different. I just got back from a ride going 26-27mph and couldn't get it to dip any more than I could at lower speeds, even going 25mph uphill.

Either way, 'twas a lot of fun, and I am really enjoying this wheel!

Edited September 30, 2019 by redfoxdude

[CampDylan]

5 hours ago, Tom D said:

Long Thorn Kiawe tree

Holy crap, yes I know those thorns well and have been quite impressed by the "craftsmanship" of that tree to produce such a strong, long and finely pointed thorn - I see a lot of them up on Diamond Head, thanks for the warning.

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

 

This is different than the rubbery band 5° dip you get at lower speeds. This is full on feeling like a free spinning hinge.

 

They are not over powering their wheels like we do. Trust me they won’t understand. I can get the MSX to dip too. But it kinda dips and then slowly adjusts back to level. 

The KS wheels are great for the less than very aggressive riders. Even then many of the racers win on KS wheels. Force Vs finesse. 

Although 6 months back one guy really did just need to recalculate his wheel. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by RockyTop

[Patton250]

8 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

The pedal dipping is sudden and large - not gradual at all. Here's a 30° dip at 25 mph.

This is different than the rubbery band 5° dip you get at lower speeds. This is full on feeling like a free spinning hinge. Furthermore, the resistance lowers as speed increases. 

Note: if this is a feature, I'm not equipped atm to have faith and maintain that lean. I would need a track one-piece suit and track boots.

I'll also like to stress this: I like this wheel. I'm only harping on this to let others be aware of and ride within the limitations of this wheel. 

Once again I must say you and I have very different 16X’s. Mine does not do that. Ever. 

[Mike Sacristan]

9 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

The pedal dipping is sudden and large - not gradual at all. Here's a 30° dip at 25 mph.

This is different than the rubbery band 5° dip you get at lower speeds. This is full on feeling like a free spinning hinge. Furthermore, the resistance lowers as speed increases. 

Note: if this is a feature, I'm not equipped atm to have faith and maintain that lean. I would need a track one-piece suit and track boots.

I'll also like to stress this: I like this wheel. I'm only harping on this to let others be aware of and ride within the limitations of this wheel. 

Have you tried this on another 16X?
Have you tried any steep inclines?
Is this with bluetooth speaker on or off? I keep mine off.

27 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Once again I must say you and I have very different 16X’s. Mine does not do that. Ever. 

Same here... and I tend to ride my 16X faster more often than I ride my MSX simply because the 16X just wants to go fast while the MSX requires that much more intent.

I also take my 16X on crazy hills and make it grind up at 3 mph and never the slightest indication of any dipping.
I was even at 30% battery and hitting tilt back at 42kmh.. no problems at all. Very subtle tilt back though. The kind of resistance that the MSX naturally gives me at the same speed so I have to remind myself that 16X tilt back = stop pushing and MSX "tilt back" = push.

FW 1.05.

I'm a light rider though but so is Chris.

 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

@Mike Sacristan, that`s because you are a real pussy and you should`nt only train your upper body, even the ankle muscles.

()

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

@Mike Sacristan, that`s because you are a real pussy and you should`nt only train your upper body, even the ankle muscles.

()

It’s not like that. 

Let me change my words . Some riders are more skilled at being proactive. They get to the right place at the right time and work with the wheel. ( finesse) 

Others are better at reactive. Plow through and recover. By nature the only advantage is more skill with the unknown  (force) 

At 220 pounds I wish I had the skills for finesse. 

A good example: My brother competed in motocross. He would tear me up on the track. He hit every jump perfect with beauty. I slammed and bounced behind him and could not keep up. Yet when we hit the mountain trails I had to keep stopping to wait to wait for him. I just plowed through and recovered. He could not see the landings and that held him back.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Well explained, reminds me of my young years (until about 30), when I was more like you. With increasing age probably more like your brother. Not from the weight, but from the riding style. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by buell47