Patton250 Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) Isn’t the throttling for safety? Someone correct me if I’m wrong with this scenario(s) below They set the safety throttling for the reasons like if a 250 pound man cruising at 25 mph floors it to get to 31 mph as fast as possible but if the battery is under 50% power it can’t produce the power necessary to go that fast from 25 mph to 31 mph so the wheel cuts out and the 250 pound man face plants. But then the 180 pound man screams that’s not fair so King Song should lower the throttling to let’s say 30% so now the battery will have to be under that for the same scenario to be harmful to the 180 pound man. But then the 130 pound man screams that’s not fair so King Song should lower the throttling to let’s say 15% so now the battery will have to be under that for the same scenario to be harmful to the 130 pound man. Meanwhile if the throttling is below 50% the novice 250 pound man has no idea that the moment the battery drops below 50% he’s in danger if he tries to floor it at high-speeds. It won’t hurt my feelings one bit if I completely got everything wrong. Let me know. Edited September 29, 2019 by Patton250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted September 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2019 40 minutes ago, Patton250 said: I don’t really know enough about these things man. So what you are telling me is that King Song is wrong and they don’t know what they’re doing? The actual people/engineer who designed, built and programmed the 16X are stupid and have made a programming mistake(s)? You guys here are aware of the flaw(s) in the software program that they are not aware of and you’re desperately trying to inform them before they lose any future customers? That’s what you’re going with? To be honest with you if you say yes I’ll believe you. For the few years that I've been around KingSong they been known as the ultra conservative wheel company. They appear to be still operating under that principle. I can't see how you would construe what I said as equating KingSong engineers to being stupid Management is directing the show here and probably feel that they have the support of their core audience (you?). The motor and electronics have to be at the same caliber (if not better) than Gotway and Gotway has been making 16X class wheels for 2-1/2 years. This is not an engineering problem, it's a management problem. All I'm saying is that they'll lose business. How can I possibly recommend the 16X to people, over the Nikola, if it's a dumbed down wheel (IMO). Then again, maybe they won't lose any business because their core demographic is OK with ultra-conservative wheels, and all the performance guys don't even bother with KingSong. I don't know. I'm loving the 16X @ 1.05 I would probably be very frustrated with 1.06 That's what happened with my KS14S too. I hated it until they released an update that didn't throttle at 50-percent battery. We've been down this road with KingSong before. Just hoping they make things right in 1.07 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patton250 Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: For the few years that I've been around KingSong they been known as the ultra conservative wheel company. They appear to be still operating under that principle. I can't see how you would construe what I said as equating KingSong engineers to being stupid Management is directing the show here and probably feel that they have the support of their core audience (you?). The motor and electronics have to be at the same caliber (if not better) than Gotway and Gotway has been making 16X class wheels for 2-1/2 years. This is not an engineering problem, it's a management problem. All I'm saying is that they'll lose business. How can I possibly recommend the 16X to people, over the Nikola, if it's a dumbed down wheel (IMO). Then again, maybe they won't lose any business because their core demographic is OK with ultra-conservative wheels, and all the performance guys don't even bother with KingSong. I don't know. I'm loving the 16X @ 1.05 I would probably be very frustrated with 1.06 That's what happened with my KS14S too. I hated it until they released an update that didn't throttle at 50-percent battery. We've been down this road with KingSong before. Just hoping they make things right in 1.07 I’ll be honest Marty I really don’t understand the highlighted areas. I’m not sure I get why or what you believe my comments meant. Perhaps “stupid” was the wrong word but what does core audience even mean? At the very least you believe King Song engineers are wrong in their conservative safety measures right? You seem pretty harsh with them on their decision for safety throttling and perhaps justifiably so. I have zero knowledge to argue either way. I said I’d believe you man. :-) The last two paragraphs I understand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Patton250 said: I’ll be honest Marty I really don’t understand the highlighted areas. I’m not sure I get why or what you believe my comments meant. Perhaps “stupid” was the wrong word but what does core audience even mean? At the very least you believe King Song engineers are wrong in their conservative safety measures right? You seem pretty harsh with them on their decision for safety throttling and perhaps justifiably so. I have zero knowledge to argue either way. I said I’d believe you man. :-) The last two paragraphs I understand. You don't understand that they are an ultra conservative company? Here, Facebook, everywhere, people who are particularly worried about safety (the core audience that I'm talking about) will buy KingSong because KingSong plays the game conservatively. There's really nothing controversial about what I'm saying. It's a fact. You keep focusing on the engineers. I'm not. I'm focusing on management. The owner of KingSong for the longest time declared that he wouldn't make a super fast wheel. That changed in the last year. I believe management is telling the engineers to play to the lowest common denominator and produce a wheel that is safe for the 250 and 130 pound guy who doesn't know how to ride a wheel. Edited September 29, 2019 by Marty Backe 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patton250 Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: You don't understand that they are an ultra conservative company? Here, Facebook, everywhere, people who are particularly worried about safety (the core audience that I'm talking about) will buy KingSong because KingSong plays the game conservatively. There's really nothing controversial about what I'm saying. It's a fact. You keep focusing on the engineers. I'm not. I'm focusing on management. The owner of KingSong for the longest time declared that he wouldn't make a super fast wheel. That changed in the last year. I believe management is telling the engineers to play to the lowest common denominator and produce a wheel that is safe for the 250 and 130 pound guy who doesn't know how to ride a wheel. No I didn’t understand that. I really know nothing about them. I’m sorry. What you wrote makes sense now. Thanks man. Was my analysis on the last page correct? Is that how they do it? Will the 250 lb man face plant or not if he try’s to accelerate from 25 to 31 mph quickly when the battery is under 50%? Edited September 29, 2019 by Patton250 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micheal Shen Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: You don't understand that they are an ultra conservative company? Here, Facebook, everywhere, people who are particularly worried about safety (the core audience that I'm talking about) will buy KingSong because KingSong plays the game conservatively. There's really nothing controversial about what I'm saying. It's a fact. You keep focusing on the engineers. I'm not. I'm focusing on management. The owner of KingSong for the longest time declared that he wouldn't make a super fast wheel. That changed in the last year. I believe management is telling the engineers to play to the lowest common denominator and produce a wheel that is safe for the 250 and 130 pound guy who doesn't know how to ride a wheel. Just protect new riders, experienced riders knew what pedal tilt-back means. It's meaningless to argue this here. @Marty Backe @Patton250 Once new riders have faceplant, they just email to the seller and Kingsong that the wheel is not safe. KS-14S / KS-16S / KS-18L / KS-18XL, the speed limit begin from 50% battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Micheal Shen Posted September 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2019 Buffer speed is necessary, while different weight may suite different buffer speed at same battery level. Our tester can set 0~10km/h buffer to test the risk, but users just need a enough safety buffer speed. for weight from 80~120kg. If your weight is 60kg, you can also ride KS-16X 50km/h when battery level is 51%~55%. If your weight is 80kg,, can also ride KS-16X 50km/h when 72%~76%. It's hard to identify the weight for all riders, such as jump, downhill, uphill and many other factors. No matter what the max speed is changed to, the wheel will pedal tilt-back in advance before the motor consumption power is equal to the battery power, maybe 0.5~1s. So that you can notice the wheel is reaching max power. If someone need 0 second buffer time and don't care high risk, you'd better not choose KS wheel. It's meaningless to discuss those thing here. KS wheels are always not welcomed by high risk lovers. Why they are so many people compalining about buffer? bcz KS-16X is sold almost 600pcs each month now., and 1/2 are new riders. If you want to be a volunteer test for less buffer time&speed, you can email to support@szkingsong.com . And we will inform the local seller about that you will take responsibility for your choice and behavior. Do you think this is a good solution for you? 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Harvey Pooka Posted September 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2019 7 hours ago, stephen said: I wonder if he meant it came 1.06 allready installed so he had no option to keep1.05 because it was never there🤔😁 Yes. Stephen is right. That's exactly what I meant. I got my wheel and intentionally tried to update to 1.06 but it said it was already the current version. I just posted to let people know they may no longer have the option of 1.05 if they buy now thinking they could keep that version. I wanted 1.06. I am one of those riders who likes the idea of a buffer. Not because I'm new and inexperienced, but because I'm inept and uncoordinated. (I'm lucky I don't lose an eye every time I brush my teeth.) I buy Kingsong for three reasons. One - I love the handles. Two - I like their focus of being extra cautious on safety. Three - they can update firmware easily to make adjustments. The last two are a combined benefit. They see a potential safety problem and they can instantly respond. Which they did by putting on an immediate throttling to save their riders from injury. Then they can play with their firmware some more to see if they can reduce the throttling while maintaining safety margins which is what they are doing. That to me is how their safety focus and ability to update firmware should work. Kingsong is doing exactly what I expect them to do. What I hate about Kingsong is their communication with their customers about the adjustments they are making. The explanations about what and why they are doing adjustments should come out before or at the least at the same time as they release new firmware versions. They need to treat customers who have already bought differently than those who will buy in the future. A potential future customer should do their research. I knew about the throttling before I received my 16X. I have no right to complain. Those that bought before the throttling should have been told what the throttling was for and how it would work before they updated. Then it is their choice. They can choose safety or risk. Again, they have no right to complain once they made their choice. In my opinion, the backlash is from the lack of choice. Some existing purchasers would have chosen risk (based on their own assessment of their own skill) but Kingsong took that away from them. All the explanations given after the fact will never make these riders happy because their choice was taken from them. They lost what their pre-purchase research told them they were getting. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Been a while since I've dropped in this thread. I just hit 1000 miles today on the 16X. And my 💥 Nikola 100V+ is still at 975 miles. For all the drama around this, I want to stress this point: The 16X is a fine 25 mph wheel. I believe Kingsong is having issues with power delivery once the back EMF gets high enough - Gotway seems to be ahead in that regard. IMHO, I believe this is a hardware issue, not a firmware issue. I would advise Kingsong to just make the marketing message clearer: this is a *max* 25 mph wheel (ankle dippable). My recommended cruising speed is 22 mph. Anything faster is for straight smooth surfaces only. If you want something safer at higher speeds, the answer is Gotway. If you already purchased the wheel, well, Kingsong already has your money. Their attitude towards this and slow firmware approach reflects how little incentive they have for us on the forums. I'll make this simple, here's a flow chart: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted September 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Marty Backe said: The KingSong fans are very quiet compared to the large low-quality fans that Gotway uses. I don’t think the KS fans at this forum are that quiet. 4 hours ago, Patton250 said: So what you are telling me is that King Song is wrong and they don’t know what they’re doing? Quote The actual people/engineer who designed, built and programmed the 16X are stupid and have made a programming mistake(s)? Disregarding the word stupid, heck yeah. And they have been trying to repair their mistakes with several bug fixes already. As you have noticed, the FW is already at 1.06 just a few months after release. People seemed to be perfectly happy with the speed limits that the engineers originally put in place, it’s the limiting introduced in the sixth bug fix that people have issues with. 3 hours ago, Patton250 said: Isn’t the throttling for safety? That is it’s intended purpose, yes. Just like bicycle helmets. Yet some people feel that using a helmet is more dangerous in traffic since cars will not give you as much space. Nothing’s black & white. Quote Someone correct me if I’m wrong with this scenario(s) below You are wrong. 1) A 250 pound man ”flooring it” at 25mph can overlean any wheel at any battery level, regardless of how the low battery speed limits are set. 2) KS decided to publish a wheel with certain limits, and were likely as happy with the limits as their customers were. Then they heard that five people had overleaned on the 16X, under circumstances that they haven’t shared. Despite manufacturing an inherently dangerous vehicle that requires a lot of experience and understanding of various riding scenarios from the rider, they dislike people falling on their vehicles so much that they decide to lower the original limits from every wheel made both since and up to that moment, in hoping that nobody would crash on a KS. They also decreased the performance of hundreds of wheels they had already sold. That’s the part I have most trouble with. ”Here, buy a wheel, it competes with the best wheels on the market! Thank you for the money! Btw, it doesn’t compete with the best ones anymore.” Quote Meanwhile if the throttling is below 50% the novice 250 pound man has no idea that the moment the battery drops below 50% he’s in danger if he tries to floor it at high-speeds. Every EUC rider must learn that one can never ”floor it” on an EUC, especially at 25mph. I believe that wether the tiltback would start at 33 or 29mph makes very little difference to the big guy eating it or not. If fast acceleration is the issue, make limits react to acceleration! I have no trouble riding at 30mph with 5% battery at steady speed on the MSX, and the pedals feel as firm as ever. But one has to understand that riding a low battery is very different than a full battery, and the places where it’s safe to go fast on one are limited. If the rider doesn’t understand that he can’t ride aggressively on a low battery, he can overlean the wheel at 15mph. Lowering the speed limit to 10mph is not the solution. Edited September 29, 2019 by mrelwood 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post stephen Posted September 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2019 Without quoting everything in this thread here's how i see it I spent £2000 on a wheel for the specifications it had ( that's alot of money) i wouldn't of spent £2000 if the specs said it was going to throttle me at 76v or 70v loaded weight which basically got me 18miles before throttling me from 31mph to 18mph for the remaining battery (about 32-35 miles at 18mph) The wheel is fine on 1.05 if you know what your doing and know it's limits even kingsong new its limits hence 50kmh to 25% battery, but the ones what pushed it to much at lower battery and not understanding you can't accelerate that fast at 25-30- 40% battery , as the battery goes down so should the way you handle the wheel ( gotway 80% power is a good way tbh) Anyway because of a few falls kingsong made a quick update to make things safe (to safe) untill they sort the power ratio's I've been riding a test firmware pre(1.07) and its pretty good 30miles before throttling at any speed , i only tested upto 27mph with the odd flutter at 29mph, you will always get them people who try accelerate to fast near the max speed and run out of power ,, the 16x has good acceleration throughout the speed range ,,just don't over do it, I don't know if anything will change with the test firmware but ive asked kingsong if 70v-67V at 22-25 mph underload would be still safe, that would give us 40 miles of fun and still keep the experience riders happy 👍 I'm now on 1.05 firmware and will be staying on for a while at my risk and knowing the limits, even though test firmware was pretty good i think I'll stay for now i might update to 1.07 if they get the bottom %end right 1.06 was just a quick safe update from kingsong 1.07 i think most people will be happy with it ,it brings more than just throttling.smoothness and responsiveness seemed better but that's a trade off for me This wheel is fantastic i absolutely love it, its got everything you need upto 31mph 😁 i am now glad i spent £2000 if they get 1.07 right they will be a lot of happy safe customers intermediate or experienced 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said: My recommended cruising speed is 22 mph. Anything faster is for straight smooth surfaces only. I'm beginning to wonder if I can still take you seriously. I have a few more kilos on my scales (78kg) than you and with 1.0.6 I have no problems driving 40km/h on uneven roads. Also didn't have the feeling that I was at the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, buell47 said: I'm beginning to wonder if I can still take you seriously. I have a few more kilos on my scales (78kg) than you and with 1.0.6 I have no problems driving 40km/h on uneven roads. Also didn't have the feeling that I was at the limit. Right, it’s not like I have 1000 miles on this wheel. Guess I’m also not one of the faster riders who ride the beeps, nor was I the first to bring up the pedal dip issue for the past 2 months and prove it on video. Oh wait, all of that is indeed me. If you read my latest wheelog post you would understand why I recommend that 🐌 cruising speed. That is my conservative recommendation. If you’re experienced, cruise at whatever speed you want. For me personally, that’s 46 kmh on the 16X, and 61 kmh on the Nik+. Edited September 29, 2019 by chrisjunlee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 1 hour ago, stephen said: ( gotway 80% power is a good way tbh) GW ”80%” alarm is based on speed and battery level, not power availability or usage. Every GW model has it’s own preprogrammed speed threshold for the alarm that goes down with battery level. For example on the 84V MSX it is 55km/h @ 100% battery, and down to 45km/h @ 10% battery. Free air speed with full battery is 78km/h, and 55 is roughly 80% of that, hence the name for the alarm. I think the 18XL does already have an actual power usage based tiltback or at least a warning, since the wheel knows when to say ”overpower” even before an overlean. A local rider was able to make it play at walking speed on a tricky little incline, so at least it’s not based on speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 6 minutes ago, mrelwood said: GW ”80%” alarm is based on speed and battery level, not power availability or usage. Every GW model has it’s own preprogrammed speed threshold for the alarm that goes down with battery level. That's what i meant 😁😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 13 hours ago, Mrd777 said: Hey Folks, Quick question on the fan. What temp does it engage? I have yet to hear it. All my Gotway’s have the fan going on fairly early. thanks I think the fan kicks in at 50 degrees, or when charging the wheel. there was something in firmware update text about this. But that said it do not make much noise. It should run at half speed if it is at 40 degrees while charging. or something like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, chrisjunlee said: My recommended cruising speed is 22 mph. or 33 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: If you’re experienced, cruise at whatever speed you want. For me personally, that’s 46 kmh on the 16X, 46 km/h sounds more realistic, but earlier you wrote 22 mph, that's 35km/h. So what is your recommended speed? Edited September 29, 2019 by buell47 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Just now, stephen said: That's what i meant 😁😁 Ah, sorry! I think an actual power based limit works better since it takes the environmental factors, rider weight etc into account. GW wheels can still be accidentally overleaned without the alarm playing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 12 hours ago, Marty Backe said: The KingSong fans are very quiet compared to the large low-quality fans that Gotway What do you mean, that I am quiet? Sorry I just couldn't help it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: think the 18XL does already have an actual power usage based tiltback or at least a warning, since the wheel knows when to say ”overpower” even before an overlean. A local rider was able to make it play at walking speed on a tricky little incline, so at least it’s not based on speed. This was already possible with the KS16B - to get the overpower message at inclines .... and overleaning it without a message. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadRunner Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 7 hours ago, Micheal Shen said: KS-18XL, the speed limit begin from 50% battery. That’s news to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 30 minutes ago, RoadRunner said: That’s news to me. He did a mistake: 50% for 18L and 25% for 18XL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RoadRunner Posted September 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2019 3 hours ago, stephen said: I'm now on 1.05 firmware and will be staying on for a while at my risk and knowing the limits, even though test firmware was pretty good i think I'll stay for now i might update to 1.07 if they get the bottom %end right That’s how i will do it as well. They took so long to get the 1.05 out and tested it enough, I’ve seen a few test videos on Facebook where they were really hitting it hard and they finally released it and it was fine. And then all of a sudden FW 1.06 was out, and i thought wow that was quick must be just a few tweaks but as i was reading about the throttling in the description i luckily didn’t do the update because iam absolutely fine with 1.05. My X didn’t make any problems on FW 1.05 since 1300km, no pedal dipping, no sudden tiltbacks, nothing, runs like a Beast. What i don’t understand is that kingsong keeps saying they did the speed throttling for the new riders that they don’t overlean and kiss the floor but on the other hand they removed the 200km/40kmh unlocking thing. Would be better to have something to choose like the riding modes, Learner, Intermediate, Pro. Let us decide ourselves if we want to ride at the limit or not. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadRunner Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 7 hours ago, Micheal Shen said: If you want to be a volunteer test for less buffer time&speed I already am a tester for that since I’m on FW 1.05, and I’m fine. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadRunner Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 26 minutes ago, Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina said: He did a mistake If you’re representing a company you shouldn’t do mistakes like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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