KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Patton250]

13 minutes ago, KAY GEE said:

King song fan boys would not be pleased with you Uncle Marty, King song is the benchmark for build and quality 

Ah yes that must be it. You’re a right nice fella aren’t you?

um..... I own more Gotways then KS. But don’t let that stop you from taking shots. 

20 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I obviously don't own a 16X. My being hard on the 16X is purely based on what people have been expressing here and elsewhere. I believe I've said zero about rideability. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm echoing objectively stated criticisms:

• Poor shell seals from the environment
• Wheel oscillations issues (where the wheel looks like it's on top of a Saturn V rocket to the moon)
• Firmware changes that alter the performance of the wheel post-purchase
• Non-optimal tire choice (this may be more subjective, but it seems very common)
• Crappy shell padding
• An app that provides meaningless battery levels
• I think there's a few more items, but they aren't coming to me right now.

If someone thinks this is unfairly hard, then they're a fanboy. Sorry 

You do realize you just proved my point right? :-)

Edited September 16, 2019 by Patton250

[Mrd777]

Putting all the negatives, positives, agreements and disagreements we have heard on the 16x, I have to say this wheel is certainly getting a lot of attention from all of us. We are up to 165 pages on it, so there must be something there!

I am quite curious about this wheel and the overwhelming support on it’s agility. I have one coming this week, so I’m looking forward to comparing it to my dedicated Gotway wheels.

lets see..

[Patton250]

10 minutes ago, Mrd777 said:

Putting all the negatives, positives, agreements and disagreements we have heard on the 16x, I have to say this wheel is certainly getting a lot of attention from all of us. We are up to 165 pages on it, so there must be something there!

I am quite curious about this wheel and the overwhelming support on it’s agility. I have one coming this week, so I’m looking forward to comparing it to my dedicated Gotway wheels.

lets see..

 I guarantee you’ll love how it rides. Let’s just hope you don’t experience any problems. Marty‘s list was quite accurate unfortunately. Fortunately what’s on his list hasn’t affected everyone.

[eucinsea]

I love mine as well. Other than the 1.06 throttling issue right now its perfect for me with batch 1 stock tire.  

[KAY GEE]

2 hours ago, Patton250 said:

Ah yes that must be it. You’re a right nice fella aren’t you?

um..... I own more Gotways then KS. But don’t let that stop you from taking shots. 

You do realize you just proved my point right? :-)

I don't think you get my drift , there's no EUC manufacturer that's immune from defects, be it build quality or software issues. Take the Ninebot Z10, that EUC is the best designed and crafted EUC to date, but of what use is that to riders when the electronic components are nothing to write home about, on the other hand GotWay EUC's do not have that astute build quality of the Ninebot Z10, but it performs well compared to the Z10. 

So do you think EUC riders want a beautiful designed and crafted wheel that might have issues later on or a no-nonsense wheel that performs handsomely out of the box? 🤔 

[Jon Stern]

I've ridden maybe 30 miles on the CYT H-5167.

At first I thought the difference from the CX was quite subtle, but the more I ride with the CYT the better it feels.

I took it on some rocky, gravely trails today and it was so smooth.

One thing I've noticed is less tram-lining. To me that's important, as that's not a sensation I enjoy.

The wobbles are quite mild now. it's still a wobbly wheel, but now the wobbles seem like a minor quirk of character, rather than something threatening and dangerous.

I'm loving the 16x with this tire. If the next controller board that's heading my way fixes my random tilts, I'll be very happy with the 16x indeed.

[The 1.06 throttling hasn't been an issue for me yet, as most of rides have been of modest length, and I'm making sure I charge the wheel frequently (not best for battery life, I know).]

Edited September 17, 2019 by Jon Stern

[Mike Paolini]

906 Firmware.  35 PSI, rider weight 220+ 10 pounds of gear.

iOS App reporting max speed 41 mph, external recorder reporting 20 mph.  Average speed seems right, it was a group ride.
 

[mrelwood]

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

iOS App reporting max speed 41 mph, external recorder reporting 20 mph.

That sounds a lot like the mph showing as kph. 41 km/h = 25.5 mph, minus KS extra and possible external recorder tolerance = 20mph.

Did you use the latest version of the app?

[eddiemoy]

10 hours ago, Unventor said:

I found the offset stance is very difficult to master as the wheel is so nimble so it moves with slightest weight difference. That is not the same that it cannot be done, I just currently can't use it. That is why I had to relearn to ride as I am using my feet and legs different to shift balance and forince the wheel with angle moments. 

But getting better at it. I would say it takes more skill to ride the KS16X, compared to my KS18L. Or it could call different skills. But that is also why I have a bigger grin on my face every time. 

My KS18L is very similar to my car in feel, Mazda CX-5, relative big and heavy yet easy to drive. 

The KS16X is more like a Mazda MX-5, smaller nimble, very fun to ride, but without traction control and a manual stick. It is not about top speed, it is about fun to drive that this is all about. It demands something but gives somuch back. 

As of braking, it does it good, real good but you need to practice this to do it hard. Right now I know I have to stane at one spot on the pedals. If I don't do that, I get either speed wobbles or break wobbles. Since speed is not what I do, my stance is set to preferences to break, just in case. 

I only have 226km.on it so far. The past 120km I have gotten a lot more sync to the wheel. So I think in time I will be able to do more. 

But an old dog learning new tricks takes more time. 

I've found the CYT tire with the correct pressure makes the 16X act very similar to the KS18L, no more twitchy feeling of the wheel.  

[eddiemoy]

52 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

I've ridden maybe 30 miles on the CYT H-5167.

At first I thought the difference from the CX was quite subtle, but the more I ride with the CYT the better it feels.

I took it on some rocky, gravely trails today and it was so smooth.

One thing I've noticed is less tram-lining. To me that's important, and that's not a sensation I enjoy.

The wobbles are quite mild now. it's still a wobbly wheel, but now the wobbles seem like a minor quirk of character, rather than something threatening and dangerous.

I'm loving the 16x with this tire. If the next controller board that's heading my way fixes my random tilts, I'll be very happy with the 16x indeed.

[The 1.06 throttling hasn't been an issue for me yet, as most of rides have been of modest length, and I'm making sure I charge the wheel frequently (not best for battery life, I know).]

The CYT to me makes the wheel feel more normal like the other KS wheels.  You can take that as a plus or a minus.  If you are looking for a different feel, then stick with the CX tire.  But I prefer the CYT tire.  I just got another two tires and will be swapping out the CST tire on the Nikola + soon as I have some time.  Just got back from vacation.  LOL

But key with the CYT tire is pressure.  I find the lower pressure makes it less squirrelly at speeds and makes it feel much more controlled.

[Mishkin]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That sounds a lot like the mph showing as kph. 41 km/h = 25.5 mph, minus KS extra and possible external recorder tolerance = 20mph.

I just want to point out that while it seems to be an issue for many people/wheels based on comments I see about speed measurements across these forums, my KS16S is bang on +/-1km only.... compared with phone gps speedometers, and even roadside speed signs that display your current speed as you pass. PSI variances between 30-40 don't seem to have a material impact either.

[Jon Stern]

10 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

The CYT to me makes the wheel feel more normal like the other KS wheels.  You can take that as a plus or a minus.  If you are looking for a different feel, then stick with the CX tire.  But I prefer the CYT tire.  I just got another two tires and will be swapping out the CST tire on the Nikola + soon as I have some time.  Just got back from vacation.  LOL

But key with the CYT tire is pressure.  I find the lower pressure makes it less squirrelly at speeds and makes it feel much more controlled.

I've never ridden another KingSong, so I'm not looking for novelty.

I started this tire at about 21psi (I'm light), and haven't felt the need to change it yet.

[mrelwood]

 

8 minutes ago, Mishkin said:

my KS16S is bang on +/-1km only....

My 16S is not bad either. I think it changed after that, since I think it’s been reported mostly on the 18(X)L. 16X seems to follow this new inflation trend.

 

[eddiemoy]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I obviously don't own a 16X. My being hard on the 16X is purely based on what people have been expressing here and elsewhere. I believe I've said zero about rideability. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm echoing objectively stated criticisms:

• Poor shell seals from the environment
• Wheel oscillations issues (where the wheel looks like it's on top of a Saturn V rocket to the moon)
• Firmware changes that alter the performance of the wheel post-purchase
• Non-optimal tire choice (this may be more subjective, but it seems very common)
• Crappy shell padding
• An app that provides meaningless battery levels
• I think there's a few more items, but they aren't coming to me right now.

If someone thinks this is unfairly hard, then they're a fanboy. Sorry 

I think anyone who is looking at the 16X would be happy with the wheel with a few adjustments.  Obviously if you are looking for a wheel that is faster and you accept the risk that comes with that, then go with GW.  

I'm personally happy that KS went with the CX wheel so now we know the tire affects the ride so much.  Gyro, no gyro.

It is their first wheel with PWM power delivery, oscillation was solved in firmware update.  I prefer to have the ability to update the firmware vs not.  It can get better with the correct firmware vs GW where it is fixed and any issues you need to buy a new board.  Someday, GW will figure this  out.  

Some folks on the edge of outgrowing the speed limit of the KS wheels are obviously not very happy with the conservative nature of the speed throttling.  I don't think it can be fixed without going to 100v.  I'm fine with it since I don't ride all that long and it is quick.  quicker than the Nikola.  If I didn't need over 31mph, I would prefer the 16X.  I still have it and I still ride it for when I don't need to go above 31mph.  Feels fantastic now that I have the correct tire on there and tire pressure.  

I think the App needs improvement that same with GW.  that is why there are thirdparty apps.

Shell can be improved, same can be said of GW.  Weather seal, non existent in all wheels.  This is not new.  I can imagine it being much more difficult to take apart with some weather seal and possibly screwing it all up or needed to put new weather seal every time you open your wheel up.

Padding feels fine to me.

I think you are also triggered when people criticize GW.  Marty, you are the biggest GW fanboy and forgive them for just about everything.  LOL

 

[Hibiki Mr.H]

Look, I have 4 KS wheels including the 2nd 16X I just got few days ago and sold all my GW wheels. @Marty Backe you can call me KS fanboy all you want. But I gotta tell you........ KS16X really has some issues!!   

I expect KS can do better.....but they really have some QC issues with their 16X 
I also think there are some problems with their new hardwares like the new 2200w motor and the new shell (not the proven durable, rounded shape they had) and they are trying to fix everything with firmware updates.
From a software engineer stand point, if KS engineers can't fix the same bugs in their apps and firmware in 3 releases, they might as well quit their jobs. Not to mention, people's safety depends on it.
If it's really hardware flaws.....come on KS !! start shipping those parts replacement already !!

IMHO, I think for KS16X owners, it's either:
1. very lucky to have a 100% working 16X while some other people don't ( I call this QC issue KS!! )

2. love 16X so much and willing to look past the "minor" problems as there's always risk to buy early batches.

3. the way they ride their wheels are not affected much by the problems (ie. not riding at top speed, not riding long distance...etc)

My KS16Xs are at v1.01 and v1.06 firmware.
I keep the "old" one at v1.01 because I am so afraid of making it worse by updating firmware.
CURRENTLY,
i don't ride at top speed (to avoid throttling and hard tilt back at high speed). 
i don't play music with BT (to avoid BT interference problem).
i don't ride aggressively (to avoid oscillations issue).
i don't ride off road (to avoid dust got in the shell)
i don't use KS mobile app (incorrect top speed / avg. speed...etc)

But I really hope KS can fix all the problems soon whether with hardware or software.

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Hibiki Mr.H said:

Look, I have 4 KS wheels including the 2nd 16X I just got few days ago and sold all my GW wheels. @Marty Backe you can call me KS fanboy all you want. But I gotta tell you........ KS16X really has some issues!!   

I expect KS can do better.....but they really have some QC issues with their 16X 
I also think there are some problems with their new hardwares like the new 2200w motor and the new shell (not the proven durable, rounded shape they had) and they are trying to fix everything with firmware updates.
From a software engineer stand point, if KS engineers can't fix the same bugs in their apps and firmware in 3 releases, they might as well quit their jobs. Not to mention, people's safety depends on it.
If it's really hardware flaws.....come on KS !! start shipping those parts replacement already !!

IMHO, I think for KS16X owners, it's either:
1. very lucky to have a 100% working 16X while some other people don't ( I call this QC issue KS!! )

2. love 16X so much and willing to look past the "minor" problems as there's always risk to buy early batches.

3. the way they ride their wheels are not affected much by the problems (ie. not riding at top speed, not riding long distance...etc)

My KS16Xs are at v1.01 and v1.06 firmware.
I keep the "old" one at v1.01 because I am so afraid of making it worse by updating firmware.
CURRENTLY,
i don't ride at top speed (to avoid throttling and hard tilt back at high speed). 
i don't play music with BT (to avoid BT interference problem).
i don't ride aggressively (to avoid oscillations issue).
i don't ride off road (to avoid dust got in the shell)
i don't use KS mobile app (incorrect top speed / avg. speed...etc)

But I really hope KS can fix all the problems soon whether with hardware or software.

Yep, you're a fanboy for sure 

[DragonFZ]

12 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

I love my D3o pieces as well, but I might suggest you look at actual Motor Cycle Level 2 armor before you send the money on the Flex Force...

I've 5 motorcycle Jackets and gear (including racing boots)... it is too freaking hot to wear in Texas. Of the 5, 2 are mesh Fieldsheer but no rib protection. I felt the pedal jab 2 inches below my ribs. Just an ugly looking bruise, so I ordered a light jacket with rib protection.  I've crashed with my Street&Steel Jacket on Electric Skateboard, I would suggest protection that is closely wrapped to the body since Motorcycle Jackets are designed on the interior, there is too much play for me (got abrasions on my skin inside Jacket). My leather Fieldsheer Jacket is a different story... great protection but too hot (will wear for winter). Just like all my 2 crashes, no time to push off or adjust for combat rolls or MA rolls... just not happening (for those that think it is possible). I also ordered the Flexmeter... I agree it is the best on the market.

[DragonFZ]

12 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Yea, you nailed it.  I've come to believe ultimately with the wobbles that's really design issue.   The Higher Peddles (.2" higher than an MSX) on a shorter wheel (16" vs 18") result in a change in the balance point and leverage. Combine this with the high torque motor and the result is ride wobbles.  They may eventually be able to tune the motor to reduce them during breaking, but I would not expect that any time soon.

 I feel like it just a characteristic of this wheel riders need to understand.

(And riders should probably practice the emergency stop technique that has you convert the linear movement to circular rotation around a pivot point -  one foot off to pivot with while the other controls the wheel,  borrowed from the martial arts.  Sadly I can't find the video where I learned it to post it here, but it has saved my bacon several times).

Totally agree... However, When I get a chance I want to check if there is a misaligned valve hole issue on my wheel (what someone posted on here).

[Marty Backe]

17 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I think anyone who is looking at the 16X would be happy with the wheel with a few adjustments.  Obviously if you are looking for a wheel that is faster and you accept the risk that comes with that, then go with GW.  

I'm personally happy that KS went with the CX wheel so now we know the tire affects the ride so much.  Gyro, no gyro.

It is their first wheel with PWM power delivery, oscillation was solved in firmware update.  I prefer to have the ability to update the firmware vs not.  It can get better with the correct firmware vs GW where it is fixed and any issues you need to buy a new board.  Someday, GW will figure this  out.  

Some folks on the edge of outgrowing the speed limit of the KS wheels are obviously not very happy with the conservative nature of the speed throttling.  I don't think it can be fixed without going to 100v.  I'm fine with it since I don't ride all that long and it is quick.  quicker than the Nikola.  If I didn't need over 31mph, I would prefer the 16X.  I still have it and I still ride it for when I don't need to go above 31mph.  Feels fantastic now that I have the correct tire on there and tire pressure.  

I think the App needs improvement that same with GW.  that is why there are thirdparty apps.

Shell can be improved, same can be said of GW.  Weather seal, non existent in all wheels.  This is not new.  I can imagine it being much more difficult to take apart with some weather seal and possibly screwing it all up or needed to put new weather seal every time you open your wheel up.

Padding feels fine to me.

I think you are also triggered when people criticize GW.  Marty, you are the biggest GW fanboy and forgive them for just about everything.  LOL

 

A fanboy isn't going to own multiple wheels from different companies. At least by my definition I'm not a fanboy. I list all the problems with the various Gotway wheels and don't attempt to sweep said problems under the rug. I flatly deny your assertion that I forgive them for just about everything.

I didn't think I was triggered by any Gotway comments in this thread. We're talking about the less than stellar release of the 16X here.

No doubt the padding feels fine. But I can attest to the low quality padding that KingSong uses on their wheels (not just the 16X). It's fine until you have to remove it (which they force you to do whenever you open the wheel). Then it rips ever so easy 

The dust that I'm seeing in the 16X is unacceptable and I do not see that in other wheels (including KingSong). I'm not talking about water proofing the wheel, where I agree with your statements.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Mike Paolini said:

906 Firmware.  35 PSI, rider weight 220+ 10 pounds of gear.

iOS App reporting max speed 41 mph, external recorder reporting 20 mph.  Average speed seems right, it was a group ride.
 

So the app speed is worthless???

[Jon Stern]

34 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Shell can be improved, same can be said of GW.  Weather seal, non existent in all wheels.  This is not new.  I can imagine it being much more difficult to take apart with some weather seal and possibly screwing it all up or needed to put new weather seal every time you open your wheel up.

They just need some silicone or poron gaskets. It would mean that there would be more compression required when attaching the outer shell, and it might grow the wheel by a few millimeters, but this is easily achieved and manageable (there is a big range of material durometers available).

[DragonFZ]

18 hours ago, Kens said:

On the night Group ride, it was organized by OneWheel DFW... there was 3 other EUC riders, Z10, Nickola 100V and KS16S. Ok, the Nickola was expected... Big. But I was surprised how small the Z10 look. First time seeing it in real life. 16S look small too.

[Mike Sacristan]

5 hours ago, KAY GEE said:

I commented on this already, there is a rider from Seattle, Chris I think is his name who has hit 42 mph on his, and he goes past 30mph most of the time. 

Yes I saw that you commented on it. I just wanted to answer it as well to add +1 in that I also don't have any trouble hitting speed on the Nik+.
So that people stop blaming the damn wheels and instead start looking at what they are doing wrong!

I have no problem with speed wobbles on the MSX, Nik+ or 16X.
I can cause speed and brake wobbles on the Nik+ and 16X with improper technique. Easiest to get brake wobbles on the 16X though.
5000km on my MSX. 1200 on the 16X. My MSX fits like a well worn glove.
I ride with bent legs and keep a low center of gravity. I do not squeeze the pads.
On the 16X I ride with a loose posture and try to have a neutral pelvic tilt. I do not use the pads for turning but will use them for hill climbing.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Can someone post a side by side picture from the CST C-1488 and the CYT H-5167 tire? 

[Mike Sacristan]

7 hours ago, Patton250 said:

 Know that I am fully counting on the CX tire I ordered to completely change how I feel about the Nikola Plus.  I believe it will fix the problem if not I will be selling it.  It’s very smooth up to 25 mph now. Of course the tire was out of balance just like my previous Nikola.  But the good people here showed me how to make it better by deflating it and reseating it.  It fixed about 80% of the bounce just like it did with my last one.  Now I just need to eliminate the wobbles.   I love how some just chime in saying it’s me the rider that’s the problem and that’s fine but I have no problem going that fast on all my other wheels including my previous Nikola. Well that went 31mph and I went that fast on it all the time.  But even with that Nikola it was nowhere near as stable as the 16X IMHO.  So I’m hoping the reason is the tire. I really like the CX. I also really like the Nik+.  It’s a beautiful looking wheel and very comfortable.  So probably next Sunday I will attempt to change the tire. Pray for me as I have no idea what I’m doing. LOL 

Wait a second. Isn't the CX tire the stock tire for the 16X?
Damn man you will be the first person to do something so crazy. Awesome!

I know man I know... but still the wheels behave differently. I lower my stance a bit more on the Nik+ and I lean crazy forward. I don't really know much about your riding style either. It would be interesting to know more about how you ride and not just what other wheels you ride. I had insane problems with the MSX wobbling as soon as I tried going past 22mph. The MSX! Turns out my riding style wasn't suited for it so I had to unlearn everything I learned from the Ninebot One E+. And the wheel that you think is stable is the one most people think is not.

If you had a super power I guess it would be you doing hard things easily and easy things would be hard for you lol.

Or maybe the bump is really that bad? Let someone else try your Nik+?