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Jean Dublin

KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

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Regarding losing traction, which came up as a suspected reason for @Gaz Bon’s unfortunate fall. If the wheel is skidding sideways, I’m pretty sure the rider would remember what happened, since there is still a good amount of time before hitting ground.

I have ridden large distances on all kinds of unpaved and other off-road conditions pretty much every week for the last two years. High speeds on gravel and dirt roads and pathways, and slower speeds on forest paths, cliffs etc. On both 16S and MSX, both with various different tires.

Losing traction in front to back direction takes huge amounts of force on any surface. Wet mud is clearly the most slippery, but even there I haven’t had even a slightest slip. Sideways wet mud is dangerous and requires a lot of concentration from the rider, but even in those situations relaxed braking and accelerating is no problem. Accelerating straight on unpaved surfaces (other than wet mud or roots), I don’t think any wheel has enough power to start skidding. Especially at 10+ mph speeds.

The one thing I can think of that’s sort of reminicent of losing traction is to have a spot of soft gravel, dirt or sand where the wheel sinks a bit, and despite staying upright, slows down fast enough for the unprepared rider to continue without the wheel. But that of course leaves clear indications where the wheel sinked, so the crash wouldn’t be a mystery.

Edit: A dynamic tilt-back limit can be made much more gradual than a strict speed based one, since power and speed reserves are already taken in consideration. A slow enough tilt-back wouldn’t cause heart attacks and/or endanger any riding situation, even when it comes up as a surprise. Like on the MSX, the tilt-back slope is about 6km/h, while on the 16S it’s 1.5km/h.

Edited by mrelwood

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15 hours ago, pico said:

If I was marketing I would offer two versions with two  different vocations!

16XT 

16XS

T for TORQUE, S for SPEED!

That sounds familiar. Didn't Gotway do that for a while with early versions of MSuper? The customer could choose a version with high torque or a version with high speed. For some reason it did not continue.

Edited by MaxLinux

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34 minutes ago, Mishkin said:

I basically want a 16S with more range so I'm hoping my use case fits into the 16X even if there are still other problems to work out for other riders wanting more (and rightly so for them of course). Cheers!

That is how I felt about wanting an upgrade from my Glide 3/V8. Just more range without having to lug my charger around.

I have been extremely happy with the 16x. I haven't gone over 24 Mph , cruising at 15 Mph on bike paths, and 20 Mph on Streets. Love how stable it is at pedestrian speeds. 

I am riding with stock 1st batch tire on 30 psi. 200 lbs ish with gear and backpack.

 

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7 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:
  11 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Overlean = you lean and the wheel can't catch you fast enough; power remains on

This was not my quote @Gaz Bon 😉,

It’s @chrisjunlee

 

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2 hours ago, Mishkin said:

@stephen Thank you for your 16X videos posted in this thread and the other ones on your YouTube channel (regardless of firmware version). As I live vicariously through everyones opinions on the wheel here until mine arrives, your videos are a reminder of how enjoyable someone can find the ride of the 16X, regardless of the issues being raised. I expect to be a 35kph max rider, and I basically want a 16S with more range so I'm hoping my use case fits into the 16X even if there are still other problems to work out for other riders wanting more (and rightly so for them of course). Cheers!

The 16x is the perfect wheel in every way it's just pure fun , it's smooth , it feels small you can throw it about and the acceleration is perfect wether your going up hill on the flat the speed is constant , if Kingsong can keep 25mph down to at least 25% battery you'll have hours of fun , the problems people are having is at top speed if you don't live on the edge of that I'm sure we'll be fine 👍

It surley is an outstanding wheel , it keeps me smiling 😁

1 hour ago, prasket said:

That is how I felt about wanting an upgrade from my Glide 3/V8. Just more range without having to lug my charger around.

I have been extremely happy with the 16x. I haven't gone over 24 Mph , cruising at 15 Mph on bike paths, and 20 Mph on Streets. Love how stable it is at pedestrian speeds. 

I am riding with stock 1st batch tire on 30 psi. 200 lbs ish with gear and backpack.

 

I still would say if you want 31mph buy a wheel what can at least go 35+ mph so you have some mph buffer and not living on the edge of top speed of the 16x

8 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

 

Yep T version that would have my name all over it 

I'll second that

Edited by stephen

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1 hour ago, stephen said:

if Kingsong can keep 25mph down to at least 25% battery you'll have hours of fun , the problems people are having is at top speed if you don't live on the edge of that I'm sure we'll be fine 👍

 

This would be great!

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On 9/5/2019 at 5:46 PM, Mike Paolini said:

@ir_fuel

I'm not sure yours is the total picture  - because the the same sampling rate is applied consistently (1Hz which is sample per second).

Moving into more detail though, since GPS is providing 1 location point every second, we can measure total distance traveled in that 1 second (and here I'm assuming no wobble or bounce issues).  And that allows for us to compute the time it took, in fractions of a second, to cover the distance (e.g. Assuming I've done my math correctly, @ 20kph over a period of 1.6 seconds a distance of 8.89 meters would be traveled and over 2 seconds it would be 11.11 meters). So given GPS point T1 minus point T0 it is reasonable to compute when we reached 20khp in tenth of a second accuracy.

Which brings me to my next point, GPS isn't the only way to do it.  Going a different path leveraging the accelerometers - which on the iPhone at least sample at 50Hz - a sample ever 0.02 seconds.  And naturally two methods could be combined as well.

So while it may not reach the level of precision in sampling you' prefer for the GPS method alone, it does not invalidate it, it simply requires more math to figure to walk backwards from the total distance traveled to compute what the time in seconds would have been at a target speed of 20khp.  And even if the programer was lazy, it would still provides an indication of what a higher sampling rate would point to - both wheels are reaching similar speeds at similar intervals.  

Lastly, for what it is worth, people have tested these apps against the measurements on quarter mile tracks with pretty good results.

Let's agree to disagree.

You are already linearly interpolating input values that have a deviation of several meters, to calculate a non-linear value (you are not going constant speed, you are accelerating). On top of that you add a very noisy accelerometer. (I do iOS development for a living, I know what the accelerometer and GPS are capable of, and I spend my free time working with race cars and sometimes motor cycles, so I also know about the Harry's laptimers and other things that exist on smartphones, compared to high end solutions such as a RaceLogic Vbox, or AiM race dashboards).

Anything with a sampling rate lower than 10Hz and the necessary hardware to compensate for inaccuracies is useless, and the lower the speed the worse it gets. 30 km/h = 3.6m/s. If your GPS has a 2 meter deviation (which is really not a lot) and you sample 2 times in 2 seconds worst case vs best case you end up with 2 points that are either 11.2 meter apart or 3.2 meter apart. If you go lower speeds it's even worse. And on top of that you have to non-linearly interpolate between those values to find the different timestamps at certain speeds? 

Of course this will work better when you are driving your car on a drag strip or a race track, where you are going 50-200 km/h. The faster you go the less the constant deviation of the GPS becomes an issue.

The most precise way I can think of measuring this is by attaching an AiM Solo to your wheel. That's perfectly possible. I have a few of them at home, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig to test accelerations on an euc :D

 

 

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On 9/7/2019 at 5:48 AM, Gaz Bon said:

Just had a face plant @ Speed maybe 45kph  on dirt

That's fast for that wheel IMO.

For me it's a wheel to reach those speeds on smooth paved roads. 

Then again, that's my completely subjective opinion, not based on any hard data or specs whatsoever. I would take an MSX if those speeds on that terrain were my objective. 100V while we're at it.

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9 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

That's fast for that wheel IMO.

For me it's a wheel to reach those speeds on smooth paved roads. 

Then again, that's my completely subjective opinion, not based on any hard data or specs whatsoever. I would take an MSX if those speeds on that terrain were my objective. 100V while we're at it.

MSX is my normal/daily ride  + me riding like i was on the MSX + Only having 60Kms on the 16X + unsuitable tire maybe for the terrain = Crash

 

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On 9/6/2019 at 6:28 PM, prasket said:
  • 16x is now making a sound that gets dogs attention. I have passed by probably 75 dogs in past week on my KS 16x on 1.05 and maybe one of them paid any attention to me. This morning EVERY dog I passed started barking and trying to get at me on my EUC. Very bad for me as there are SOO many dang dogs around Seattle. I was REALLY happy in 1.05 as it seemed dogs just ignored me like I was on a bicycle. :)

Tagging @Micheal Shen @US69 to hopefully get attention on the sounds making dogs crazy in 1.06.

i had the same thing... the dog was very aggressive..

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Sometimes I forget just how fast the 16X goes....

0E7CD9F8-1C7A-4D25-8444-64C03C35B4F2.thumb.jpeg.cddaec33370dce15d1e3fea372b0253e.jpeg

 

Was not even leaning aggressively forwards and then I heard “pls decelerate” followed by the beeps. 

Strangely no tiltback....

🤣🤣🤣

 

Edited by Garrie Lim

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2 hours ago, Garrie Lim said:

Sometimes I forget just how fast the 16X goes....

0E7CD9F8-1C7A-4D25-8444-64C03C35B4F2.thumb.jpeg.cddaec33370dce15d1e3fea372b0253e.jpeg

 

Was not even leaning aggressively forwards and then I heard “pls decelerate” followed by the beeps. 

Strangely no tiltback....

🤣🤣🤣

 

I guess when pedal tilt back little, you stop accelerating. And the pedal is recovered

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3 hours ago, Garrie Lim said:

Strangely no tiltback....

I seem to recall that they made the tilt-back softer in one of the updates. If you didn’t even notice, it sounds like very good news regarding the long awaited death of the omnious tiltback of death!

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3 hours ago, Micheal Shen said:

I guess when pedal tilt back little, you stop accelerating. And the pedal is recovered

The moment I heard the pls decelerate and beeps I stopped leaning forward. Pretty sure I didn’t feel any tiltback

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2 hours ago, Garrie Lim said:

The moment I heard the pls decelerate and beeps I stopped leaning forward. Pretty sure I didn’t feel any tiltback

I'm reporting that to kingsong I've just done a test👍

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50 minutes ago, stephen said:

Testing firmware ks16xt 9.06

Firmware seems Pretty good so far ,well better than 1.06 😀maybe it might get tweaked a little more

I did notice no tiltback on a few occasions when it said please decelerate,it should tilt at the same time

Things may vary for different people as it's based on voltage usuage ,,weight terrain,wind etc

I did a video when battery reached 30% 

Not getting tiltback early now ,,here's the vid 

Only as accurate as in real time filming

 

Nice job Steve! I would rather have a polite voice encouraging me to de-accelerate than have an unexpected tilt back. IMO throttling back to 18MPH is a satisfactory speed to reach your final destination. 

Edited by Rehab1

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