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Jean Dublin

KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

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If you want to ride above 40 km/h, those tiltbacks will be really really annoying. And they start early, from 76 V idle.

If you're happy staying below 30 km/h (=32 km/h wheel speed), then 16X is an amazing wheel!

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10 minutes ago, fryman said:

Sure, if you ignore the tilt back or warning beeps.

With the 16B it was "easily" possible to overlean before any tiltback started. Regarding beeps it depends at which speed they are set - if only at tiltback speed, no beeping will happen, too.

Have no such overlean data for the KS16S or other wheels, it could be quite possible too. Just needs stronger acceleration and the overlean happens at higher speeds. Imho if one accelerates really hard in such ranges a tiltback won't help too much, anyhow as the overlean is just to come anyhow and not enough time left to react.

10 minutes ago, fryman said:

  My point is that the 16X should be safe with lower throttling and currently Kingsong is saying it is not.

Somewhere here afair was reported that the KS16X can draw much more current as the KS18XL, so should also accelerate much better?

As it seems this higher burden/acceleration possibilities are now countered with this new throttling?

The only way to drive a wheel safely is to not accelerate to hard at higher speeds.

8 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Yeah I don't really get what's going on either.

And i'd assume we'll never really will...

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I read a lot of people comparing 18 inch wheels to 16 inch wheels. From an engineering point of view there is only so much ferromagnetic material you can pack on a 16inch wheel.

In a brushless motor of a given size there is only so much power you can extract before saturating the core. (Even pushing efficiency to the max)

For a given maximum allowable current at a given voltage (i.e. Watts) you have to compromise between torque(acceleration) and speed. 

I think the Kingsong fans have cornered the Kingsong engineers. (I must say, I saw this coming :popcorn:) Been there...:wacko:

I remember saying, "The last 10% of performance gets you in 90% of the trouble"

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42 minutes ago, Tadas said:

Just came back from riding v1.06. Logged all the tiltback events, here are the numbers after digging through Wheellog's log.

...

Kingsong reports higher speed compared to GPS, to get real speed I correct kingsong's speed by factor of 0.94.

...

 

KS16X v1.06 tiltbacks.ods 26.44 kB · 0 downloads

Your numbers are "worse" than the speed reduction graph resulting from the following assumptions:

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

100% is assumed 4,1125V average cell voltage for all wheels.

...

KS16X (1.06) with 3.15V==0%. Downto 50% 50 km/h, then linear decrease to 25 km/h at 0%.

...

Here 68V would lead to 38 km/h, 72V to 48 km/h.

From your first graph (KS speed numbers) one gets for 68V ~32km/h, 72V ~ 41 km/h, leading to reaching 50 km/h at ~76V. That'll be average ~3.8V per cell which is above 50% battery charge no matter how one sets the limits...

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23 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Sorry, but measuring sub 2-seconds accelerations with a phone app?

That's never going to be accurate. Your phone does GPS sampling at 1Hz. That's 1 sample per second, including the lack of GPS accuracy. How will this ever give a meaningful result where you can compare 1.9s vs 1.7s. or 5.7 vs 6.1.

If you don't have at least 10Hz sampling with a high precision active GPS antenna, the results are worthless.

 

@ir_fuel

I'm not sure yours is the total picture  - because the the same sampling rate is applied consistently (1Hz which is sample per second).

Moving into more detail though, since GPS is providing 1 location point every second, we can measure total distance traveled in that 1 second (and here I'm assuming no wobble or bounce issues).  And that allows for us to compute the time it took, in fractions of a second, to cover the distance (e.g. Assuming I've done my math correctly, @ 20kph over a period of 1.6 seconds a distance of 8.89 meters would be traveled and over 2 seconds it would be 11.11 meters). So given GPS point T1 minus point T0 it is reasonable to compute when we reached 20khp in tenth of a second accuracy.

Which brings me to my next point, GPS isn't the only way to do it.  Going a different path leveraging the accelerometers - which on the iPhone at least sample at 50Hz - a sample ever 0.02 seconds.  And naturally two methods could be combined as well.

So while it may not reach the level of precision in sampling you' prefer for the GPS method alone, it does not invalidate it, it simply requires more math to figure to walk backwards from the total distance traveled to compute what the time in seconds would have been at a target speed of 20khp.  And even if the programer was lazy, it would still provides an indication of what a higher sampling rate would point to - both wheels are reaching similar speeds at similar intervals.  

Lastly, for what it is worth, people have tested these apps against the measurements on quarter mile tracks with pretty good results.

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4 minutes ago, Patricio Bohórquez Rodríguez de Medina said:

How is the latest update (firmware v1.07) going? Any improvements? It is already available.

It was only an app update

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8 minutes ago, Flying W said:

I'm sure kingsong can have a heavier rider do some testing.

We need Kuji to eat more rolls to achieve his final form, Mount Fuji

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43 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

I honestly do not know what all the whining is about for 1.06.   The KS16x is fun wheel and it delivers.  

And maybe its just me, but I'm okay with safety limitations to keep me upright, skin on my bones, and all my teeth configured as they currently are.   We as a riding community should be DEMANDING safety first and foremost.  Performance comes after safety - because if it is the other way around, eventually these will be outlawed everywhere.

Also I'm not really sure that a *version 1.0* of a *brand new engine* and *new control system* (and the new software also going with it), running a 16x3" tire, really belongs at speeds greater than 25 mph in the first place - at 40% or 100% of battery.   If you need those kinds of speeds, maybe think 18" or 22"  100v (not 16" 84v).

As it is, I can feel myself become airborne in the 20's and I'm heavier rider (also riding at 35-37 PSI).  That fat tire *does* transmit more road noise to the rider (which I assume is why a lot of you are running it below manufacture recommended PSI levels),  and this combines with the higher peddles, which  while wonderful off road and at lower speeds for turns, result in a higher center of gravity and less stability (e.g. infamous hard acc and breaking side-to-side-wobbles - though tire may has have input into this).   Nothing comes for free, there is always a trade off.

So my 2 cents, King Song keep doing what you are doing.  If you can zero in on the numbers to give us a bit more, great, if not, that is cool also.  Because the KS16x is great wheel, and I dig it as is.  

(But I do wish you'd fix the BlueTooth .25 second lost playback and release the iOS app that shows the correct power levels).

 

 Just out of curiosity but did you actually read the detailed explanations as to why people are upset? 

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Just been on my msx and did 26mph and it felt fast now im wondering if kingsong 25mph and 20mph are actually correct , the ks16x takes seconds to get to 25mph but doesn't feel like 25mph when you are there but it does accelerate fast and feels so smooth ,,, more testing needed as im beginning to think something is wrong 🤔

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Here's my 2 screens of speed you can clearly see after my days ride where it started throttling .. Plus you can clearly see i wasn't doing top speeds even when i had the voltage if i did my battery would of gone down quicker, and if i had I'd even have less fun of a day out

Look at the speed it was only a leisurely range test too

1st screen is the return home and 2nd screen is the beginning

 

Screenshot-20190905-203845-com-android-c


Screenshot-20190905-203602-com-android-c

 

If i was on a clear stretch the please decelerate and tiltback would of been constant but that why i bought the 16x because i don't have clear stretches but when it is clear i want to do at least 25mph , i didn't exactly floor it did i

Edited by stephen

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17 minutes ago, Tadas said:

gps_speed = 0.94 * ks_speed

Now we know GPS is inaccurate by 6% - excellent work 😎

@stephenbruh, that's the longest image of all time - of all time. RIP thumbs.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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