KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Unventor]

33 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Today when i jumped on the XL for a few minutes the pedals felt really flat, the angle on the X is a bit higher.

Did anyone do a pedal angle mod on the kingsong before, if yes how, because i like the angle of the X more.

@Sebadid a guide on that on his blog site. Suspension mod he called it, sideeffekter is an angel added to pedals. 

https://najednymkole.pl/en/how-to-add-shock-absorption-to-your-king-song-euc/

Edited August 10, 2019 by Unventor
Added link to guide.

[Unventor]

24 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

However the 20-25% discrepancy on the Kingsongs can probably be calculated if they are a fixed number.

On my KS18L is isn't that high. Maybe 10-15% (more towards 10) the problem is it isn't constant. What is constant is what the wheel report. Using different GPS solutions report different. Both phone apps and Sony fdr-x3000r camera. 

So in the end I started just to go by what the wheel reports. It is similar to my car. It report like 5% too high a speed compared to GPS... Most cars are set up that way to ensure you don't get cought speeding. 

[Mike Sacristan]

After reading the last posts and especially the discussion that started from Chris and that was answered by MrElwood and others I feel that there is a tiny tumour beginning to grow in my brain. My only chance is to express myself so here goes.

Also Chris, as I have said I highly value your posts and tests and information that you share. Today you will be the one being tested though.

5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

We really don't need to be doing the full 70 mile range test.

As I've stated long ago, we just need to integrate Power over time ( ∫W(t)*dt ) which gives us total energy over that distance - thereby giving us motor efficiency. This would also allow for more control over variables due to the shorter distances it allows (rider weight, tire pressure, speed, start/stop, etc).

That is exactly the data I would be gathering if I was writing an industry whitepaper.

This sounds like an inferior method and the burden is on us to disprove it.

5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Unfortunately, I don't think people understand what I'm saying, so eyes glaze over and all this just goes over their head XD

The statement above was the false dilemma. There are other reasons. Sadly the above sentence was a poor choice of wording and came out rather insulting. It was not ironic that this was pointed out to you by mrelwood. What mrelwood means is that when one says something and someone else takes offence that one should look in the mirror. It is not a matter of intent but a matter of output. My brother was at a dinner and one of the people at the table was going for seconds. He said, "Are you sure you should get seconds? You look like you could lose some weight". I'm sure he meant well though. Or did he? Maybe he didn't mean anything bad. But that's not the same thing. Genuinely meaning well requires effort. Good is not an absence of evil. That's why we could have neutral Paladins in Dungeons and Dragons. Since this whole line of thinking seemed alien to you it was then stated that you have a lot to learn. Not an insult but a revelation and invitation to you. Such learning would require humility though and that is also something that must be learned.

It's not that we don't understand what you're saying. It's that most people on this forum are fond of using razors after a long life of explaining to people why they shouldn't eat soup with a fork.

If I were to suggest that we flip 5 coins instead of 50 coins to reach statistical significance in random generation I would put the burden of proof on myself. I would explain why my method could yield similar results with less work/effort. Your method sounds like a lower resolution version of that which is being done and adding the word dimensions is simply not enough. Here are some reasons as to why nuances would be lost:

Voltage is not linear. Less linear at the top and even less linear at the bottom. More linear at nominal voltage or around 3.7V.
Voltage use on all wheels is not known nor should it be assumed that it is known until proven. This questioning back becomes a question boomerang. Are you sure you're not Swedish?
Range tests will expose and illustrate the expected experience, comfort, overheating and errors.
When does the wheels slow down? Does it slow down in stages or linearly? Once or several times? Like the V10 or like the 18XL or like the MSX? The all slow down differently. It took us over a year to understand the speed reduction for the MSX. Same goes for 18XL.
Samples taken would have to be standardised and there are not so many 16X riders out there right now.
We could do both though and simply start a new thread called: "The mini range test thread" where riders could start at 80% battery and ride it to 70% battery and post the results.

For me it is important to know that the 18XL goes down to 3.0V and the 16X goes down to 3.15V.
It is also important for me to know that the discharge rate from 3.3 to 3.0 is steeper than the discharge rate from 3.6 to 3.3.
It would not be enough for me to read a whitepaper that says that expected range is based on 30kmh rider weighing 140lbs using 16Wh/km and that you can almost mathematically calculate Wh/km for higher weights in a linear fashion. Almost. Because twice the weight wouldn't cost twice the power. At PSI X and temperature Y and elevation Z. 

So the burden of proof goes back to you now. If you have a superior method please go ahead and suggest it, explain it, defend it, etc.

Before I go... although I do find fallacies incredibly entertaining they do have a purpose. The purpose is to encourage logical thinking and to avoid falling into illogical traps. Your argument wasn't refuted because of genetic fallacy. It was disregarded because you did not qualify. However if a dog did bite me 10 times and I flinch the 11th time it goes for me I wouldn't appreciate it if someone yelled GENETIC FALLACY at me.

Every time I get into a problem in my life I fight my narcissistic side and hope that the error lies in me. Because in the end it is easier for me to change myself and improve myself than what it is for me to change and improve others.

This was me being my best! Hope the tumour goes away now!
Don't forget to look up fallacy fallacy.

Like and subscribe! 

[houseofjob]

On 8/8/2019 at 6:42 PM, chrisjunlee said:

To unlock the full potential of this wheel, you need to ride in soft mode. Hence why I'm putting up with it.

No, no, maybe I was unclear.

For Gotway, yes soft (or softer) mode is the key to unlocking the potential of the wheel: this is like set in stone in my mind as I have experienced it first hand.

But this only for Gotway.

I've ridden in soft modes for other manufacturers, and the pedal response curves just don't have enough difference from their hard modes to really be useful. 

In the case of KS & IM (whose modes are very similar feeling in my experience), they just soften across the board as the modes move to medium and soft; the actual signature of the response curve has not changed.

Hence, for non-Gotway, I just ride Hard mode, as there's no point (plus, unless this was fixed by a recent firmware, KS was telling us during the preproduction run that the firmware bobble issue was only being fixed for the 16X Hard mode)

On 8/9/2019 at 1:50 AM, chrisjunlee said:

@houseofjobcan you explain why soft mode gets you the maximum potential of a wheel?

I think I need to make a separate, more definitive post at least on this, as I feel like I repeat myself all over different threads (and this has been good for me to refine my views on the why?, but again, requires me to keep re-drafting the same explanation)

On 8/8/2019 at 6:46 PM, ir_fuel said:

You need room to carve, I guess? I ride a lot on bike paths and I don't have much space to go left right. It's getting better now I must say, by locking the euc with my heels/ankles. Just need more road miles to adapt my riding.

Keep at it I think.

Bike paths are enough space IMHO to s-carve brake, you just need to be adept at hip movement, using alternating heels, wide stance, etc.

If you're feet are not mobile, yes it will be hard to do this

If you also carve where your torso moves with the carve, yes, it will also be harder to do this (on forward or braking carves, your torso should face straight, while the legs will pivot and turn with the carves, as this is basically ski technique: torso up is calm and moves down the mountain, never changing directions, while the lower half does all the work and movement).

On 8/8/2019 at 6:58 PM, Gustesta said:

Does it carve better than the Z10?

On 8/8/2019 at 6:56 PM, Gustesta said:

I really prefer wheels that are easy carving.

Do you think the 16x is better at carving than the Z10?  I didn't like the Z10 and I sold it.  

My V10F is so easy to carve etc.

The main factor in ease of carving is predominantly wheel width IMHO.

So, if you like the 2.5" V10F, you're not gonna get better by going up .5" width in the 3" wide 16X or up 1.6" in the 4.1" wide Z10.

[Mike Sacristan]

34 minutes ago, Unventor said:

On my KS18L is isn't that high. Maybe 10-15% (more towards 10) the problem is it isn't constant. What is constant is what the wheel report. Using different GPS solutions report different. Both phone apps and Sony fdr-x3000r camera. 

So in the end I started just to go by what the wheel reports. It is similar to my car. It report like 5% too high a speed compared to GPS... Most cars are set up that way to ensure you don't get cought speeding. 

And the speeds?
And for the 16X?
Why don't we know these numbers??? How hard can it be?

Aaaaargh!!!

[RoadRunner]

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

hip movement

Like dancing salsa. 

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

 After this post I have come to the conclusion that,  A.  You are most definitely a multimillionaire, B.  You have an incredibly smoking hot wife that is an 11 out of 1-10.  C.   You could kick Chuck Norris’s ass. :-)

Thank you <3

[houseofjob]

9 hours ago, Daniel-Son said:

I was going to wait for next week to do another range test but, my feet felt fine this morning. My plan was to ride under 20 mph for as long as I can possible go. The first hour, was great! I was having fun carving, at speed of around 15 mph, this wheel is really fun to ride. The second hour, still feeling good but my feet began to hurt. The third hour, my feet really starts to hurt and the temperature outside starts to heat up quickly. The fourth hour, my feet is in so much pain they start to go numb. I finally ended my trip at 4 and a half hours and I still had 20% battery! 

I will never do this again! (Not without a seat)

1) screenshot - 65 mile/48 gps miles 3hr 24min with 23% until throttling.

2) screenshot - 80.5 miles/59 gps miles 4hr 17min with 1% until throttling.

3) 4) 5) My final numbers - 82.8 miles/60.6 gps miles with 20% battery still left! Very impressive!

Nice test!

EUC Foot pain is the over-tensing of the foot arches. I'm not sure what foot size you are, but even the largest of EUC foot pedals today don't exactly fit the average-to-bigfooter feet completely, so part of the foot tends to hang off. So when you are applying pressure to the pedals (braking or accelerating), and your riding technique is to keep the whole foot evenly on the pedal, the foot is partly struggling to stay on the pedal many times due to the overhang, so forefoot and heel try to squeeze in closer together, to stay on, leading to over-stressing the foot arch muscles that sit inbetween forefoot and heel. This phenomena especially gets worse when bracing over sketchy terrain.

To combat over-tensing arches over long rides, try to ride in a manner where, for accelerating, you are alternating foot presses to left-then-right pedal (remember, EUC acceleration does not require force to both pedals), lifting the heel up in the air of the pedal you are accelerating with, pressing on just your toes/forefoot. This will alleviate arch tension by giving the foot arches regular interval chances to rest. Even better, when accelerating on toes/forefoot per the above, on the opposite foot, place your weight on that foot's heel, not the whole foot (again, pressing with both forefoot + heel creates arch pain). Also being in a constant wheel body-leaning carve angling will help this technique even more.

With the above method, these days, I barely will feel foot arch pain, even on longer rides. 

 

2 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

Like dancing salsa. 

LOL, exactly  

Hips are the key to all human movement I think.

Edited August 11, 2019 by houseofjob

[TedTheAtheist]

13 hours ago, Daniel-Son said:

I was going to wait for next week to do another range test but, my feet felt fine this morning. My plan was to ride under 20 mph for as long as I can possible go. The first hour, was great! I was having fun carving, at speed of around 15 mph, this wheel is really fun to ride. The second hour, still feeling good but my feet began to hurt. The third hour, my feet really starts to hurt and the temperature outside starts to heat up quickly. The fourth hour, my feet is in so much pain they start to go numb. I finally ended my trip at 4 and a half hours and I still had 20% battery! 

I will never do this again! (Not without a seat)

1) screenshot - 65 mile/48 gps miles 3hr 24min with 23% until throttling.

2) screenshot - 80.5 miles/59 gps miles 4hr 17min with 1% until throttling.

3) 4) 5) My final numbers - 82.8 miles/60.6 gps miles with 20% battery still left! Very impressive!

 

Your feet only hurt if you don't tell them to relax CONSTANTLY. I've been riding since 2015 and I still have to tell my feet to relax.
My feet DO relax when I'm riding somewhere where I've already been quite a few times - no problem. They only tense up when I'm at a new place/area, and I don't know the place.

However, that's when I tell them to relax.. and as long as I start that from the very beginning, I'll be fine the whole time!

[Unventor]

9 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

And the speeds?
And for the 16X?
Why don't we know these numbers??? How hard can it be?

Aaaaargh!!!

I have not yet worked out an algorithm for the KS18L yet even after a year and 2700+ km (KS 😉 km). 

As you know I am still waiting for my KS16X to arrive, so how this turns out I can't even guess. 

I can add that my Inmotion V8 also was off between wheel reported and GPS logged distance. I only did like 400 km on it but my estimate is something like 5% too high on the wheel compared to GPS. 

We live in a colourful world, no black and whites only.... Many this are not as simple as one might would hope for. 🙄

[ir_fuel]

Pretty impressed by those calling it a stable wheel. I still have to concentrate not to have left/right wobbles at 35+km/h, and have to concentrate A LOT not to have huge wobbles when braking from those speeds. What works for now is pushing my heels towards the body of the wheel when riding, and combining this with locked knees when braking. But having to do this I can hardly call the wheel "stable" since I have to put this effort in. My Z10, that's a stable wheel. I can just ride it 40+km/h without doing any effort or concentrating on foot placement etc, and when I brake it's rock solid straight line braking.

 

[Jon Stern]

7 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Pretty impressed by those calling it a stable wheel. I still have to concentrate not to have left/right wobbles at 35+km/h, and have to concentrate A LOT not to have huge wobbles when braking from those speeds. What works for now is pushing my heels towards the body of the wheel when riding, and combining this with locked knees when braking. But having to do this I can hardly call the wheel "stable" since I have to put this effort in. My Z10, that's a stable wheel. I can just ride it 40+km/h without doing any effort or concentrating on foot placement etc, and when I brake it's rock solid straight line braking.

 

Same for me. I'm riding at 20psi (I weigh 128 lbs without gear). I might try dropping the pressure a few psi.

[Unventor]

I think part reason for people having wobbles is the increased pedal hight. This should mean distance from pedels to wheel/motor axel is shorter, so you need to "work more" to move wheel or catch balance. Or this is what I am expecting at least. Still 2+ weeks before I can test out my theory 😕. 

[Patton250]

Mine is incredibly stable. Every bit as stable as my Z10 or any other wheel I own. In fact now that the silly tilt back in the first 1/4 mile is gone there is absolutely nothing wrong with this wheel. It’s the best riding wheel I own. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Patton250

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, Jon Stern said:

Same for me. I'm riding at 20psi (I weigh 128 lbs without gear). I might try dropping the pressure a few psi.

Clamping the euc with my lower legs on braking seems to work. I m riding at 2 bar.

[ir_fuel]

Of all the wheels I had so far (Inmotion V8, Rockwheel GT16, Ninebot Z10, Gotway Mten3, Gotway MCM5) this is the first wheel on which I experience this.

[Jon Stern]

43 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Of all the wheels I had so far (Inmotion V8, Rockwheel GT16, Ninebot Z10, Gotway Mten3, Gotway MCM5) this is the first wheel on which I experience this.

I get it a little on my V8. I think it might be me.

[magicrobots]

Here's some video jumping over a curb sized block of wood in the woods using onewheel "bonk" technique!

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by magicrobots

[chrisjunlee]

4 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Pretty impressed by those calling it a stable wheel. I still have to concentrate not to have left/right wobbles at 35+km/h, and have to concentrate A LOT not to have huge wobbles when braking from those speeds. What works for now is pushing my heels towards the body of the wheel when riding, and combining this with locked knees when braking. But having to do this I can hardly call the wheel "stable" since I have to put this effort in. My Z10, that's a stable wheel. I can just ride it 40+km/h without doing any effort or concentrating on foot placement etc, and when I brake it's rock solid straight line braking.

 

 

4 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

Same for me. I'm riding at 20psi (I weigh 128 lbs without gear). I might try dropping the pressure a few psi.

 

Dropping the pressure significantly reduced the wobbles for me.

BW: 137 lbs, ungeared.

At 30psi, I get wobbles past 15mph.

At 18psi, it feels planted, no wobbles until 25+mph? And this is with an asymmetrical stance.

As @ir_fuel said, it might be placebo nonsense, but 20 PSI vs 18 PSI made a difference for me. I can’t find anything to support the notion of an inflection point for pneumatic tires, so it probably is placebo

Also, my stand pump gauge was waaaay off, and it wasn’t a linear systematic offset.

Edited August 11, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[chrisjunlee]

As for braking wobbles, I can’t figure out how to aggressively straight line brake on this wheel without wobbles. Have tried both symmetrical and asymmetrical stances.

If I slowly decelerate at, let’s say 50% effort, it doesn’t wobble. But as soon as I try to brake it hard, it wobbles.

But it doesn’t bother me too much, since I’ve learned how to heel pump brake.

Edited August 11, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Ben Kim]

Not being trollish at all, it just seems like everyone here is trying very hard to like this wheel, but it’s not what they expected. Is this a fair assessment?

[ir_fuel]

19 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

As for braking wobbles, I can’t figure out how to aggressively straight line brake on this wheel without wobbles. Have tried both symmetrical and asymmetrical stances.

If I slowly decelerate at, let’s say 50% effort, it doesn’t wobble. But as soon as I try to brake it hard, it wobbles.

I get stability when clamping the wheels with my legs under braking.

[Patton250]

3 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Not being trollish at all, it just seems like everyone here is trying very hard to like this wheel, but it’s not what they expected. Is this a fair assessment?

Nope.  I don’t like this wheel at all. I love it. 

[ir_fuel]

10 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Not being trollish at all, it just seems like everyone here is trying very hard to like this wheel, but it’s not what they expected. Is this a fair assessment?

I see what you are pointing at, and in a sense you are right. At this point in time (I have 160km on my wheel, most of them off road), if I had to get rid of all my wheels and keep only one to do it all, I'm not sure this one would be it. Compared to all other wheels I had it seriously lacks straight line stability at higher speeds. I don't know where it comes from and I find it strange that all of the sudden I have to adapt to something I never needed adapting to before. This is my 3rd 16" wheel so it's not as if my experience is limited to the Z10 and dunno, a Gotway Monster or whatnot.

This is not the wheel for me to do normal road riding. The lack of stability under braking limits my enjoyment as I will always need to be on the lookout and super defensive, because I know I can't stop it as hard as I can stop any other wheel I had ridden until now. Off road there are zero issues as I don't hit such speeds (25mph). If you are not confident under braking you should not be going fast. This is why I am impressed by people here going 30mph with this thing. I honestly don't understand how they do it.

Right now the Z10 still has a very important place in my wheel collection. The only thing the KS16X has going for it, compared to the Z10, is that it is A LOT more comfortable over bumps and cracks. I wish I could combine all the features of the KS16X with the stability of the Z10. That would for me be the perfect wheel on the road.

Will this improve? Time will tell.

 

I would love to see some videos of current owners here going 25mph and doing hard braking.

Edited August 11, 2019 by ir_fuel

[magicrobots]

1 minute ago, ir_fuel said:

I wish I could combine all the features of the KS16X with the stability of the Z10. That would for me be the perfect wheel.

Maybe swapping the tire could achieve this?