KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Jon Stern]

25 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

We really don't need to be doing the full 70 mile range test.

As I've stated long ago, we just need to integrate Power over time ( ∫W(t)*dt ) which gives us total energy over that distance - thereby giving us motor efficiency. This would also allow for more control over variables due to the shorter distances it allows (rider weight, tire pressure, speed, start/stop, etc).

That is exactly the data I would be gathering if I was writing an industry whitepaper.

Unfortunately, I don't think people understand what I'm saying, so eyes glaze over and all this just goes over their head XD

It goes over their heads because you're the smartest person on the forum, right?

You might find that people are willing to listen to you more if you drop that attitude. You never know who you're talking to on the internet.

I have a bachelor's degree in Physics and a Ph.D. in electronics. You don't need to talk down to me.

I work with many other Ph.D.s (including specialists in battery technology) and we do perform real world battery tests on our cameras until shutdown. We don't only use first order, linear approximations which gloss over critical details like changes to battery internal resistance over temperature, efficiency of power regulators vs input voltage, etc.

You can integrate power over time, but it won't get you the definitive answer.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Jon Stern

[chrisjunlee]

11 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

It goes over their heads because you're the smartest person on the forum, right?

You might find that people are willing to listen to you more if you drop that attitude. You never know who you're talking to on the internet.

I have a bachelor's degree in Physics and a Ph.D. in electronics. You don't need to talk down to me.

I work with many other Ph.D.s and we do perform real world battery tests on our cameras until shutdown. We don't only use first order, approximations which gloss over critical details like changes to battery internal resistance over temperature.

You can integrate power over time, but it won't get you the definitive answer.

Wow, the chip on your shoulder to read it that way. And I'm fine if that's your takeaway and you miss my point. I'm just going to step back while you battle with your insecurities, not going to get dragged into this.

Some friendly advice: when reading things, always assume good intent. Take it or leave it.

Edited August 10, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Jon Stern]

36 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Wow, the chip on your shoulder to read it that way. And I'm fine if that's your takeaway and you miss my point. I'm just going to step back while you battle with your insecurities, not going to get dragged into this.

You made a statement that suggested you had a chip on your shoulder about people not listening to you. I hadn't even been reading all your posts as there too much going on here recently to keep up, so I didn't even take your comment as being aimed at me.

Maybe I over-reacted because I'm hangry right now, but statements along the lines of "I'm right, people just don't understand me" generally don't go over well on forums, where tone and body language are missing.

You can stick with being right if you want. I don't care. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Jon Stern

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, Daniel-Son said:

I was going to wait for next week to do another range test but, my feet felt fine this morning. My plan was to ride under 20 mph for as long as I can possible go. The first hour, was great! I was having fun carving, at speed of around 15 mph, this wheel is really fun to ride. The second hour, still feeling good but my feet began to hurt. The third hour, my feet really starts to hurt and the temperature outside starts to heat up quickly. The fourth hour, my feet is in so much pain they start to go numb. I finally ended my trip at 4 and a half hours and I still had 20% battery! 

I will never do this again! (Not without a seat)

1) screenshot - 65 mile/48 gps miles 3hr 24min with 23% until throttling.

2) screenshot - 80.5 miles/59 gps miles 4hr 17min with 1% until throttling.

3) 4) 5) My final numbers - 82.8 miles/60.6 gps miles with 20% battery still left! Very impressive!

 

looks like that kingsong distance calculation is even more inflated than the 18XL.  

[BleepBloopBlop]

That is exactly what I expected for the distance discrepancy on the kingsong app. I really wish it was closer to reality! Seems this wheel doesn't do 50km/hr as advertised due to the inflated numbers out of the app.

[chrisjunlee]

5 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

You made a statement that suggested you had a chip on your shoulder about people not listening to you. I hadn't even been reading all your posts as there too much going on here recently to keep up, so I didn't even take your comment as being aimed at me.

Maybe I over-reacted because I'm hangry right now, but it statements along the lines of "I'm right, people just don't understand me" generally don't go over well on forums, where tone and body language are missing.

You can stick with being right if you want. I don't care. 

Where I was coming from: I thought I made a good suggestion to this thread's demand for range and efficiency data, but noone seemed to pick up on it.

I interpreted that as: "hmm, I guess it doesn't make sense to most readers, and the few that would run with it, haven't seen it". My attitude behind that is more of someone not being familiar with Chinese writing, than of "oh these peasants, if they only knew better"

FWIW, I see this happening at times at work, myself included: we'll be so heads down into one approach, a blank-slate outsider will suggests something simpler from a different angle, it just flies over our head and we don't even register it.

[chrisjunlee]

9 minutes ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

That is exactly what I expected for the distance discrepancy on the kingsong app. I really wish it was closer to reality! Seems this wheel doesn't do 50km/hr as advertised due to the inflated numbers out of the app.

How do we know it's not the GPS speedometer app on our phones being inaccurate?

For instance, I've been using strava to record my rides, and the speed has been all over the place: average speed is low, but top speed has been 39 mph.

[Ben Kim]

11 minutes ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

That is exactly what I expected for the distance discrepancy on the kingsong app. I really wish it was closer to reality! Seems this wheel doesn't do 50km/hr as advertised due to the inflated numbers out of the app.

I did a top speed run on my 18S, I was riding the tiltback and GPS showed i barely touched 27 mph. This is on a GoPro which is much more accurate than 1Hz phone GPS. 

[BleepBloopBlop]

I haven't seen faster than 28mph on my GPS app. Time to find some radar signs to ride past here in Portland lol. 

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, Jon Stern said:

It goes over their heads because you're the smartest person on the forum, right?

You might find that people are willing to listen to you more if you drop that attitude. You never know who you're talking to on the internet.

I have a bachelor's degree in Physics and a Ph.D. in electronics. You don't need to talk down to me.

I work with many other Ph.D.s (including specialists in battery technology) and we do perform real world battery tests on our cameras until shutdown. We don't only use first order, linear approximations which gloss over critical details like changes to battery internal resistance over temperature, efficiency of power regulators vs input voltage, etc.

You can integrate power over time, but it won't get you the definitive answer.

 It’s not really an attitude my friend it’s pride.   Some people think they are the same thing but really they are not. 

Proverbs 11:2

:-)

thanks for your help with updating with the jump drive by the way. I read your post and it help me. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Patton250

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

I see that people are getting 50-60mi on the KS16X 84v

I get 50-60 KM on my 1600Wh 84V MSX. (~200lbs, fast riding, mostly off-road and steep hills.)  Until I upgrade it to 2100Wh, hopefully before it snows!

 

2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

We really don't need to be doing the full 70 mile range test.

Depending on what we want to know. So far it seems that the ones asking for the range tests want to know how far they could ride with the wheel. For that, you really do.

Quote

As I've stated long ago, we just need to integrate Power over time ( ∫W(t)*dt ) which gives us total energy over that distance - thereby giving us motor efficiency. This would also allow for more control over variables due to the shorter distances it allows (rider weight, tire pressure, speed, start/stop, etc).

I haven't seen anyone being interested in the motor efficiency of the 16X. It doesn't give most users anything worth knowing. The variables you mention all effect the range, but are very difficult to calculate. So why not go directly for the exact measurement that people want to know?

Issue #1 in your suggestion: The shorter the tested distance, the greater the variance between results. If you set out to ride a mile (or ten), you keep the test running at the back of your head, and you ride differently than usual. Also, the wind can blow from only one direction. The tire is already warm at the start of the test, or it is colder than it would be on average over the full range. You keep your speed down to get a good test result, which is incredibly hard to do for 100km. You choose a route that has less starts and stops. All these gets the result further away from what we want to know.

Issue #2: Motor, or even wheel efficiency doesn't seem to vary very much even between different wheels. What does vary (in addition to external parameters such as rider weight, riding style, speed, etc), is:

• What is the voltage range that the wheel allows to be used,
• When does the low battery tilt-back and warnings kick in,
• How soon does the low battery behaviour grow unbearable, and perhaps most importantly:
• How was the overall experience compared to another distance test, on a different wheel, made by the same person.

Quote

That is exactly the data I would be gathering if I was writing an industry whitepaper.

Not sure if it is common for those whitepapers to omit the most important factors. When asking for the range results, the users of this forum don't want to read an industry whitepaper, but about real life range experiences. 

Quote

Unfortunately, I don't think people understand what I'm saying, so eyes glaze over and all this just goes over their head XD

If you really fail to see the condescending tone on that quote, you need to look in the mirror first whenever someone misunderstands the point your trying to deliver. There's a lot to learn for you.

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

How do we know it's not the GPS speedometer app on our phones being inaccurate?

KingSong reported speed and mileage exaggerations have been a known issue for years. It has been tested thoroughly on several KS models, apps, phones, maps, riders, and continents.

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

Where I was coming from: I thought I made a good suggestion to this thread's demand for range and efficiency data, but noone seemed to pick up on it.

I interpreted that as: "hmm, I guess it doesn't make sense to most readers, and the few that would run with it, haven't seen it".

In reality, your idea was not a suitable one for the purpose. And the ones that you perhaps hoped to respond might have gotten a bit bored to your notable preference to argue instead of collaborate.

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by mrelwood

[RoadRunner]

I was out with my sister today mainly off-road in the woods. She rode the XL, i was on the X.

At the end we had made 72km, battery difference was very big.

She had 62% i had 36%. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Daniel-Son]

25 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

I was out with my sister today mainly off-road in the woods. She rode the XL, i was on the X.

At the end we had made 72km, battery difference was very big.

She had 62% i had 36%. 

 

 

 

 

 

I see seven LED’s. That’s 55%

[RoadRunner]

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by RoadRunner

[RoadRunner]

11 minutes ago, Daniel-Son said:

I see seven LED’s. That’s 55%

Well that’s funny my german booklet says only ten bars are for the battery. 

 

[RoadRunner]

[chrisjunlee]

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I haven't seen anyone being interested in the motor efficiency of the 16X. It doesn't give most users anything worth knowing. The variables you mention all effect the range, but are very difficult to calculate. So why not go directly for the exact measurement that people want to know?

Issue #1 in your suggestion: The shorter the tested distance, the greater the variance between results. If you set out to ride a mile (or ten), you keep the test running at the back of your head, and you ride differently than usual. Also, the wind can blow from only one direction. The tire is already warm at the start of the test, or it is colder than it would be on average over the full range. You keep your speed down to get a good test result, which is incredibly hard to do for 100km. You choose a route that has less starts and stops. All these gets the result further away from what we want to know.

Those variances are why we would want to collect data and have statistics work for us since we would have so many more measures to work with - in other words, I'm suggesting a method to increase our sampling resolution. As an added benefit, that opens up so many more dimensions.

Please don't misinterpret that statement as: "range tests are inferior and have no value".

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Issue #2: Motor, or even wheel efficiency doesn't seem to vary very much even between different wheels. What does vary (in addition to external parameters such as rider weight, riding style, speed, etc), is:

• What is the voltage range that the wheel allows to be used,
• When does the low battery tilt-back and warnings kick in,
• How soon does the low battery behaviour grow unbearable, and perhaps most importantly:
• How was the overall experience compared to another distance test, on a different wheel, made by the same person.

If wheel efficiency did not vary much, then we wouldn't need to do distance tests, since we know the battery capacity.

As for the voltage range and alarm warnings: aren't those already known invariants for Kingsong and Gotway?

I value the overall experience reviews - but that's a small pool and to draw from. What I'm suggesting, is a lower effort metric, with the benefit of adding another dimension to characterize our wheels.

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If you really fail to see the condescending tone on that quote, you need to look in the mirror first whenever someone misunderstands the point your trying to deliver. There's a lot to learn for you.

The irony.

Seems like you're set on the offensive, and not seeing any value in what I'm suggesting. N.B. It's good to play devil's advocate even if you want to antagonize me and the ideas I offer. 

49 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

In reality, your idea was not a suitable one for the purpose. And the ones that you perhaps hoped to respond might have gotten a bit bored to your notable preference to argue instead of collaborate.

Ah, in other words, you've just admitted you've succumbed to the genetic fallacy, and thereby haven't fairly evaluated the idea. 

Arguing and collaboration are two completely different concepts, aka false dilemma.

And before you rage: I do understand me pointing out the fallacies in your thinking is probably annoying, but it does show a level of respect that reflects my expectations of you. 

On another note: I'm one of the few that's actually provided a long range datapoint on the 16X. So I'm not against long range tests.

[stephen]

26 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Well that’s funny my german booklet says only ten bars are for the battery. 

 

Tell them nein,, it's wrong😁😁 may confuse even more for us 😂

Edited August 10, 2019 by stephen

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

KingSong reported speed and mileage exaggerations have been a known issue for years. It has been tested thoroughly on several KS models, apps, phones, maps, riders, and continents.

Oh I believe it. I'm more alluding to if we have anything more accurate. My phone GPS speed measurements are all over the place.

[RoadRunner]

Today when i jumped on the XL for a few minutes the pedals felt really flat, the angle on the X is a bit higher.

Did anyone do a pedal angle mod on the kingsong before, if yes how, because i like the angle of the X more.

[Patton250]

55 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Those variances are why we would want to collect data and have statistics work for us since we would have so many more measures to work with - in other words, I'm suggesting a method to increase our sampling resolution. As an added benefit, that opens up so many more dimensions.

Please don't misinterpret that statement as: "range tests are inferior and have no value".

If wheel efficiency did not vary much, then we wouldn't need to do distance tests, since we know the battery capacity.

As for the voltage range and alarm warnings: aren't those already known invariants for Kingsong and Gotway?

I value the overall experience reviews - but that's a small pool and to draw from. What I'm suggesting, is a lower effort metric, with the benefit of adding another dimension to characterize our wheels.

The irony.

Seems like you're set on the offensive, and not seeing any value in what I'm suggesting. N.B. It's good to play devil's advocate even if you want to antagonize me and the ideas I offer. 

Ah, in other words, you've just admitted you've succumbed to the genetic fallacy, and thereby haven't fairly evaluated the idea. 

Arguing and collaboration are two completely different concepts, aka false dilemma.

And before you rage: I do understand me pointing out the fallacies in your thinking is probably annoying, but it does show a level of respect that reflects my expectations of you. 

On another note: I'm one of the few that's actually provided a long range datapoint on the 16X. So I'm not against long range tests.

 After this post I have come to the conclusion that,  A.  You are most definitely a multimillionaire, B.  You have an incredibly smoking hot wife that is an 11 out of 1-10.  C.   You could kick Chuck Norris’s ass. :-)

[Patton250]

 Today the update via jump drive went absolutely perfect thanks to help from this forum. This wheel is incredible. It’s my fastest wheel and most stable. It’s definitely the most pleasurable wheel I’ve ever ridden. I also got the pebble watch working with wheel log. Good times. Thanks EUC forum. 

[Mike Sacristan]

47 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Oh I believe it. I'm more alluding to if we have anything more accurate. My phone GPS speed measurements are all over the place.

What app are you using? If I smooth out the extreme highs Runkeeper works okay.
I have also compared Runkeeper with my Gopro6 gps and compared those with what my MSX reports.
It's decent enough. However the 20-25% discrepancy on the Kingsongs can probably be calculated if they are a fixed number.
Looks like someone based it on a 24" tyre or something. 
Try going for a known 1km ride and see what the wheel vs gps says. Preferably in a straight line.

 

[UniVehje]

12 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Today when i jumped on the XL for a few minutes the pedals felt really flat, the angle on the X is a bit higher.

Did anyone do a pedal angle mod on the kingsong before, if yes how, because i like the angle of the X more.

Maybe just stick some material under them. I think @mrelwood has done those mods. Good for light suspension even. 

[eddiemoy]

I applied the fix for bluetooth random tiltbacks.  I just recently became aware that the wheel did some slight random tiltback and it wasn't anywhere near the 50km I set for the tiltback. I put some more miles today on the CST 16X combo.  It is definitely still not as stable as the stock tire, but I can now jump between wheels without the feeling I have to relearn how to ride.  

I'm still noticing that when i get close to 48km/h, it is tilting back slightly.  Although it seems like the random tiltback is gone.  It wasn't severe, just some weird slight tiltback for no reason.  

I've not notice any oscillation with these two tires.  But still not comfortable pushing to max.  The tiltback is a hard tilt the harder you push.