My KS18XL Trials, Tribulations, and Failures

[meepmeepmayer]

12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I really don't understand your 'math'. If the Gotway started at 97% and the KingSong was at 100% (3% difference) but at the end of the ride there was a 13% difference, what am I missing in your argument? 

1% Gotway and 1% KingSong are not the same. It's more like 1% GW = 0.9% KS. A Gotway % is less energy than a KS %.

Gotway says the wheel is at 100% at 82.25V, so if you keep charging to 84V after that you gain an extra ~10% capacity, but it won't count higher than 100%.

I don't know what the KS formula is, but assumedly, for them 84V is 100% (unless they do the same s**t GW does, then my argument is completely moot).

So 97% on a Gotway would be equivalent to 88% (estimate) on a KS, despite being the exact same charge state (=voltage) of the battery pack.

...

And now you run the battery down.

Empty is empty, so towards the lower end, GW and KS will agree on the percentage for a given battery charge state.

Than means it looks like you use more % on a Gotway compared to a KS, when in reality a GW% is just less than a KS%. A full Gotway would be like 110%, but you only ever started at 100% or even less (97%). That's where the missing percentages go if the GW is not actually fully charged at the beginning, but the KS is, while both wheels will display around 100% at the start.

On the ride in the video, you take your GW from 97%(GW formula)=88%(KS formula) to 30% (example number, both formulas will agree) and your KS from 100%(KS formula) to 40% (example number, both formulas will agree). 60% (KS% to be exact) each time.

So much for the theory. If KS also uses such a strange formula missing out on capacity, then the 18XL is just more efficient and that's it. But if GW just hides away 10% capacity while KS does not, no surprise you get less range on the same battery.

-

@palachzzz Do you know at what voltage the KingSong app formula considers the battery at 100%?

[Unventor]

49 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I pretty much only use the 14S for errands. Kind of have to find an excuse to use it. Probably should sell it, but I have a kind of EUC hoarding problem that I'm trying to work through 

The thing here is it is the smales it size, so easoer to have in the trunk. Lighter too, and have a fairly good trolley system. But I am not really sure which wherl is easier to learn reverse riding and penduluming on. Speed and long range is non important, in fact I rather be able to ride slower than walk speed than running speed. That is why the KS14D 420wh might be good enough. 

And it could match my reflective jacket too.

Less expensive so it leaves budget open for a next gen wheel for spring 2020 😁

Or going for a wheel that can double as a winter wheel next year. So my KS18L don't get too much salt damage due to our winter roads.

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

1% Gotway and 1% KingSong are not the same. It's more like 1% GW = 0.9% KS. A Gotway % is less energy than a KS %.

Gotway says the wheel is at 100% at 82.25V, so if you keep charging to 84V after that you gain an extra ~10% capacity, but it won't count higher than 100%.

I don't know what the KS formula is, but assumedly, for them 84V is 100% (unless they do the same s**t GW does, then my argument is completely moot).

So 97% on a Gotway would be equivalent to 88% (estimate) on a KS, despite being the exact same charge state (=voltage) of the battery pack.

...

And now you run the battery down.

Empty is empty, so towards the lower end, GW and KS will agree on the percentage for a given battery charge state.

Than means it looks like you use more % on a Gotway compared to a KS, when in reality a GW% is just less than a KS%. A full Gotway would be like 110%, but you only ever started at 100% or even less (97%). That's where the missing percentages go if the GW is not actually fully charged at the beginning, but the KS is, while both wheels will display around 100% at the start.

On the ride in the video, you take your GW from 97%(GW formula)=88%(KS formula) to 30% (example number, both formulas will agree) and your KS from 100%(KS formula) to 40% (example number, both formulas will agree). 60% (KS% to be exact) each time.

So much for the theory. If KS also uses such a strange formula missing out on capacity, then the 18XL is just more efficient and that's it. But if GW just hides away 10% capacity while KS does not, no surprise you get less range on the same battery.

-

@palachzzz Do you know at what voltage the KingSong app formula considers the battery at 100%?

I feel like giving up. I guess the only way to know which wheel gets better range is to drive them both down to 1-mph tilt-back. But then I suspect you'd say, "no, Gotway is just holding more battery in reserve".

I think you've beaten me down into never doing a comparative range test again.

[meepmeepmayer]

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think you've beaten me down into never doing a comparative range test again.

That wasn't the point. Just that at 97%, your msuper V3 simply wasn't nearly full while (probably) the 18XL was at 100%. (Also, to defend GW's honor a bit)

You could just keep the charger in overnight in your ms3 (it has no diode, right?) and then it would be full. And then repeat what you did, no need to ride it down to tiltback, just a reasonably low number where both the GW and KS formula will agree.

But you have so much experience already, if you say you get more range out of your 18XL than your msupers, it's likely true. Good enough for me.

Just enjoy riding and keep doing range tests

[ED209]

 

@meepmeepmayer, is definitely a Gotway Fanboy 😅, where is @US69

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That wasn't the point. Just that at 97%, your msuper V3 simply wasn't nearly full while (probably) the 18XL was at 100%. (Also, to defend GW's honor a bit)

You could just keep the charger in overnight in your ms3 (it has no diode, right?) and then it would be full. And then repeat what you did, no need to ride it down to tiltback, just a reasonably low number where both the GW and KS formula will agree.

But you have so much experience already, if you say you get more range out of your 18XL than your msupers, it's likely true. Good enough for me.

Just enjoy riding and keep doing range tests

Well, I've never actually run the wheels down to tilt-back low-battery. The MSX has the diode, but I guess I can realistically say that EWheels MSX's have less range than the XL.

For the MS3 I'd have to do it again starting at a full battery.

But I think I'm done. It just takes too long. When asked, I will say that I believe the XL has an edge, but don't 'take it to the bank'.

Maybe I'll feel like doing some tests again another day after I've fully recovered from the Meepmeepmayer knock-down 

[meepmeepmayer]

Just now, ED209 said:

@meepmeepmayer, is definitely a Gotway Fanboy 😅, where is @US69

Haha. You're not totally wrong here

It just seems we have 90% accurate information on our wheels, and it would just be nice to have 99% accurate information. It's frustrating to wonder and speculate instead of just know. Whatever the result is.

[ED209]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I've fully recovered from the Meepmeepmayer knock-down 

Knocked down, but you made the count 😁

[meepmeepmayer]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I can realistically say that EWheels MSX's have less range than the XL

That's definitely true.

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Maybe I'll feel like doing some tests again another day after I've fully recovered from the Meepmeepmayer knock-down 

Knockdown? Your video is great info, it's only about the interpretation. I just want to know if KS are indeed more efficient now, or if it's something else. (Also, defend GW against possibly false allegations, there are enough true allegations already)

Winter + manufacturers is driving me crazy. Didn't intend to do that to you

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I feel like giving up. I guess the only way to know which wheel gets better range is to drive them both down to 1-mph tilt-back. But then I suspect you'd say, "no, Gotway is just holding more battery in reserve".

I think you've beaten me down into never doing a comparative range test again.

I think you just realized that wheels are different, but to messasure something like range, there are too many variables just because of differences and it is very difficult to create same condition for both wheels. it can be done but the result might not really be useful. lets say yyou bring both wheels to a indoor track and field where you don't have wind or weather to think about. but doing laps after lap at same speed will not really give you real world value as you climbs hills and regen going downhill the regen factor cannot be meassured in this way. So is there a point in doing range test. maybe. 

But in the end of the day speed, ridestyle and the way you use the wheel is proberly more important than 3-5 miles more. If you meassure cars milage to teh gallon then 0.1 in differance doesn't really matter if one have a crappy comfort and noise this massive compared to a fantasic feel and great assist features that let you drive further without getting tired. 

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Well, I've never actually run the wheels down to tilt-back low-battery. The MSX has the diode, but I guess I can realistically say that EWheels MSX's have less range than the XL.

For the MS3 I'd have to do it again starting at a full battery.

But I think I'm done. It just takes too long. When asked, I will say that I believe the XL has an edge, but don't 'take it to the bank'.

Maybe I'll feel like doing some tests again another day after I've fully recovered from the Meepmeepmayer knock-down 

Yea but your new body armor and helmet should protect you from major knock-downs

So I am looking forward to see people doing range test with 5k wh batteries when we at some point get those wheels. Or even af Fallout 2030 eddition with own build in atomic reactor station.

 

Note: For those not playing games, Fallout is a serices of 1950/1960 age post neculear war due to people thinking atomic power and war would fix everything, in short.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Unventor

[Mike Sacristan]

The 18L and XL are great wheels. No doubt about that. The 18XL is probably the most complete average wheel out there right now.
Having had 2 different revisions of the same electric longboard I can say this:
One of them had a max speed of 25 km/h. The range on it was 21km. After 50% it would throttle down to 18km/h and get progressively slower/weaker.
The other had a max speed of 30 km/h. The range on it was also 21km.  It wouldn't slow down until around 10% battery.
The only difference between them was the motherboard/ESC. Same board, same battery.

Even though the MSX and XL have similarly spec:ed motors and similarly spec:ed batteries they have differently programmed curves. I wouldn't be surprised if the MSX is too free in it's access to power. Meaning you can potentially get more grunt out of it if you are willing to push it around. The XL will probably try hold you back a bit with it's more intelligent programming.

All tests don't have to be 100% scientific to be useful. We will never ride our vehicles in lab environments anyway. For real world usage Marty got a bit higher range with the XL than with the MSX. Sure there were some speed difference towards the end of the ride being overly conservative on the XL after misreading the battery level and wind resistance is a factor (the biggest factor). But I still think that it is expected that the XL would be a bit more refined in it's programming as over all it is a more refined machine.

I would definitely buy an XL just for fun. The only problem is the pain in my soul that I would feel having paid 14300 SEK for an MSX 84v 1600Wh and having to pay 22000 SEK for an XL. For 50% more I want 50% more.

[Smoother]

6 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I would definitely buy an XL just for fun. The only problem is the pain in my soul that I would feel having paid 14300 SEK for an MSX 84v 1600Wh and having to pay 22000 SEK for an XL. For 50% more I want 50% more.

Where did you find an MSX for 14,300 SEK?  I'm seeing them for the equivalent of 22,678 SEK.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, Unventor said:

I think you just realized that wheels are different, but to messasure something like range, there are too many variables just because of differences and it is very difficult to create same condition for both wheels. it can be done but the result might not really be useful. lets say yyou bring both wheels to a indoor track and field where you don't have wind or weather to think about. but doing laps after lap at same speed will not really give you real world value as you climbs hills and regen going downhill the regen factor cannot be meassured in this way. So is there a point in doing range test. maybe. 

But in the end of the day speed, ridestyle and the way you use the wheel is proberly more important than 3-5 miles more. If you meassure cars milage to teh gallon then 0.1 in differance doesn't really matter if one have a crappy comfort and noise this massive compared to a fantasic feel and great assist features that let you drive further without getting tired. 

This is why I've done 3 different comparative range type tests (as of now). And they all lean in one direction - the XL is superior. That's probably all I should say from here on out; the XL has a similar range to other 1600wh wheels but appears to be slightly better.

[Mike Sacristan]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

Where did you find an MSX for 14,300 SEK?  I'm seeing them for the equivalent of 22,678 SEK.

From the almighty Aliexpress. I got mine from Intelligent Walking Store. It took 2 months to arrive but that's what you get when you order around singles day.
No taxes, no customs and they threw in a mud guard, seat and the new sidepads. (I really have to put that mud guard on lol)
If I could get another 1600Wh wheel for that money like a KS18s or XL I would probably buy it in a heartbeat.

[Gaz Bon]

12 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

From the almighty Aliexpress. I got mine from Intelligent Walking Store. It took 2 months to arrive but that's what you get when you order around singles day.
No taxes, no customs and they threw in a mud guard, seat and the new sidepads. (I really have to put that mud guard on lol)
If I could get another 1600Wh wheel for that money like a KS18s or XL I would probably buy it in a heartbeat.

Bargain i thought i had a good nose for sniffing out a good deal i paid a little more for my MSX delivered to Darwin Australia taxes and freight included ,3 weeks delivered  

Even though never tried the Kingsong or any other wheel in any shape or form i truly lov riding the MSX

 

    

 

[Mike Sacristan]

4 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Bargain i thought i had a good nose for sniffing out a good deal i paid a little more for my MSX delivered to Darwin Australia taxes and freight included ,3 weeks delivered  

Even though never tried the Kingsong or any other wheel in any shape or form i truly lov riding the MSX

 

    

 

A few weeks back Aliexpress was listing Kingsong L and XL. I think the XL was 18000 SEK compared to the 22000 SEK I see at european shops.
I could consider an XL for my wife so that she has a vehicle with matching range. But she just loves her electric longboards too much.
I showed here nonstopneals review where he was saying "wow, wow, wow" over and over again. But yeah i'll let her learn on my ninebot first. She has a long way to go.

After I ordered the MSX I was still keeping tabs on prices and for quite a while up until recently the MSX was selling for around 14600 SEK. And the 100v version for a little bit more.
Recently Green Fashion and Intelligent Walking have raised the prices by a couple of hundred dollars.

Anyway if I were to buy an XL I would buy it from a shop that would give me good after sales service.
Unless I find it for Aliexpress MSX prices.

[Gaz Bon]

48 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

A few weeks back Aliexpress was listing Kingsong L and XL. I think the XL was 18000 SEK compared to the 22000 SEK I see at european shops.
I could consider an XL for my wife so that she has a vehicle with matching range. But she just loves her electric longboards too much.
I showed here nonstopneals review where he was saying "wow, wow, wow" over and over again. But yeah i'll let her learn on my ninebot first. She has a long way to go.

After I ordered the MSX I was still keeping tabs on prices and for quite a while up until recently the MSX was selling for around 14600 SEK. And the 100v version for a little bit more.
Recently Green Fashion and Intelligent Walking have raised the prices by a couple of hundred dollars.

Anyway if I were to buy an XL I would buy it from a shop that would give me good after sales service.
Unless I find it for Aliexpress MSX prices.

Never seen kingsong 18L / XL on Ali Express

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

A few weeks back Aliexpress was listing Kingsong L and XL. I think the XL was 18000 SEK compared to the 22000 SEK I see at european shops.
I could consider an XL for my wife so that she has a vehicle with matching range. But she just loves her electric longboards too much.
I showed here nonstopneals review where he was saying "wow, wow, wow" over and over again. But yeah i'll let her learn on my ninebot first. She has a long way to go.

After I ordered the MSX I was still keeping tabs on prices and for quite a while up until recently the MSX was selling for around 14600 SEK. And the 100v version for a little bit more.
Recently Green Fashion and Intelligent Walking have raised the prices by a couple of hundred dollars.

Anyway if I were to buy an XL I would buy it from a shop that would give me good after sales service.
Unless I find it for Aliexpress MSX prices.

The risk of persuading a female you love to ride EUC, is that one day she might have a serious injury.  I would not want to know that it was my coercion to learn, that caused my baby to break a wrist or cut her chin or any of the various injury possibilities.  I am my baby's protector, keeping her safe from all that is bad out there.  pushing her to learn EUC would go against my internal remit.  Now having said that my baby is a girly girl, she does nothing dangerous except bare back horse riding ( her choice not mine).  Yours @Mike Sacristan sounds more adventurous, but I still wouldn't push her.  Watching her limp for 6 months would be a constant reminder that "I caused that" .  For me, getting her to join me with an escooter would be a result.

[UniVehje]

How’s the sound on the 18XL? Still as annoying as the 16S? 

[Siggy]

51 minutes ago, Gaz Bon said:

Never seen kingsong 18L / XL on Ali Express

 

[ED209]

50 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

How’s the sound on the 18XL? Still as annoying as the 16S? 

Yes, but not as bad, the quietest wheels in production are currently from Gotway. They are even silent at speed! 

[Mike Sacristan]

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

The risk of persuading a female you love to ride EUC, is that one day she might have a serious injury.  I would not want to know that it was my coercion to learn, that caused my baby to break a wrist or cut her chin or any of the various injury possibilities.  I am my baby's protector, keeping her safe from all that is bad out there.  pushing her to learn EUC would go against my internal remit.  Now having said that my baby is a girly girl, she does nothing dangerous except bare back horse riding ( her choice not mine).  Yours @Mike Sacristan sounds more adventurous, but I still wouldn't push her.  Watching her limp for 6 months would be a constant reminder that "I caused that" .  For me, getting her to join me with an escooter would be a result.

It gets worse. She works as a dance instructor. She did fall off her electric longboard once though. Out of the two of us she used to be the most daring one and she had no problem riding it at 40km/h. When she fell it was on a bad patch of road though and that was at 20km/h. Since then she has been a bit wary of going fast but she is regaining her courage. I also bought her body armour. She also rides a OneWheel but she is very careful/cautious when riding it.

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, Mike Sacristan said:

It gets worse. She works as a dance instructor. She did fall off her electric longboard once though. Out of the two of us she used to be the most daring one and she had no problem riding it at 40km/h. When she fell it was on a bad patch of road though and that was at 20km/h. Since then she has been a bit wary of going fast but she is regaining her courage. I also bought her body armour. She also rides a OneWheel but she is very careful/cautious when riding it.

And she loves cats.  You lucky man.

[Gaz Bon]

22 hours ago, Siggy said:

 

Yep i just checked and i don't get Any  Kingsong wheels hits when searching Ali Express from Australia