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Marty Backe

My KS18XL Trials, Tribulations, and Failures

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Midway through my long range test, navigating a stretch of cacti

IMG_1109

 

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5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Loving this tour you do in the video. Again:wub:

The 18XL's longer range might be due to the ewheels-specific reverse diode in your MSX which stops the charging early.

Without it, not only could you get to "Gotway 100%" battery (4.1125V per cell), but also keep the charger in after green light and and go to 4.2V for like 10% extra range. Pretty significant.

Looking forward to you doing a ride until the 18XL beeps and tilts back. Then we'll see it's actual range. Maybe it really is more efficient, too.

Does anybody know which cell voltage KS considers as 100%?

Thanks.

Do you really think that the reverse diode would reduce the range by 10 to 20 percent? Basically, when I start riding my MSX after a full charge, the battery is reading 97-percent.

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Posted (edited)

Well, your MSX does not even charge to 100%. 100% to actually full already is like 10% loss of usable Wh. 97% to actually full is even more.

So ~10% difference can be explained by this. Significantly more would mean the XL is actually more efficient. If your intuition says it is, that's probably the case.

-

If you need a reason to repeat this range test ride with the MSX, maybe your new gear changed the circumstances. More aerodynamic or something;)

Or just do a "20mph until it beeps, same route" test with both wheels. Not sure how the slow riding at the end changed things.

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Well, your MSX does not even charge to 100%. 100% to actually full already is like 10% loss of usable Wh. 97% to actually full is even more.

So ~10% difference can be explained by this. Significantly more would mean the XL is actually more efficient. If your intuition says it is, that's probably the case.

-

If you need a reason to repeat this range test ride with the MSX, maybe your new gear changed the circumstances. More aerodynamic or something;)

Or just do a "20mph until it beeps,, same route" test with both wheels. Not sure how the slow riding at the end changed things.

As I state in the video (I thought I did anyway), when I rode my MSX a couple of weeks ago I was wearing the same gear (OK, different helmet). Here's a picture of me on the MSX at the midway point (you can see it's flooded where I was standing in this video).

IMG_0873

My intuition does make me think the XL gets better gas mileage. I really should just open my MSX and cut out the diode.

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4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I really should just open my MSX and cut out the diode.

Haha, didn't mean to sour you on your MSX. If you're happy with it as it is...

On the other hand, range is range;)

If you do, make a video:)

Nice photo!

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Excellent range test (as always), @Marty Backe! I wonder what it is with WheelLog and the 18XL. Maybe it's registering it as an 18L and using 18L data instead of 18XL. But the WheelLog gets the data from the wheel's FW, doesn't it? (Hoping someone knowledgeable jumps in here; honestly, I don't know what I'm talking about) :efee612b4b:

The difference between battery level you got with the KS app is ridiculous. It's interesting that you mentioned the KS app gave you 20% under load, as it's been reported widely (Speedyfeet, etc.) that the app overestimates battery level by A LOT when idle, then drops down drastically as soon as the wheel is under load. I guess the FW (aka the wheel's battery LED indicators) is the most reliable (albeit imprecise) source... (correct me if I'm wrong)

In any case, the range is impressive. Am getting more pumped up about my 18XL every day! Am going to text my distributor right now! If the wheel doesn't arrive shortly, I'll keep living on "a wing and a prayer", or in this case, looking forward to a range test of yours where we finally get to hear a beep  ;)  :efee612b4b:

BTW, for the record, I ordered my 18XL from a European distributor (Spanish/French) and was able to ge the larger pedals with no problems (not as part of the package though, had to pay for them separately. My haggling skills definitely need improving) :efee612b4b:

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2 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Excellent range test (as always), @Marty Backe! I wonder what it is with WheelLog and the 18XL. Maybe it's registering it as an 18L and using 18L data instead of 18XL. But the WheelLog gets the data from the wheel's FW, doesn't it? (Hoping someone knowledgeable jumps in here; honestly, I don't know what I'm talking about) :efee612b4b:

The difference between battery level you got with the KS app is ridiculous. It's interesting that you mentioned the KS app gave you 20% under load, as it's been reported widely (Speedyfeet, etc.) that the app overestimates battery level by A LOT when idle, then drops down drastically as soon as the wheel is under load. I guess the FW (aka the wheel's battery LED indicators) is the most reliable (albeit imprecise) source... (correct me if I'm wrong)

In any case, the range is impressive. Am getting more pumped up about my 18XL every day! Am going to text my distributor right now! If the wheel doesn't arrive shortly, I'll keep living on "a wing and a prayer", or in this case, looking forward to a range test of yours where we finally get to hear a beep  ;)  :efee612b4b:

BTW, for the record, I ordered my 18XL from a European distributor (Spanish/French) and was able to ge the larger pedals with no problems (not as part of the package though, had to pay for them separately. My haggling skills definitely need improving) :efee612b4b:

There's no doubt, the KS18XL is a great wheel. I'm a long distance rider so I really appreciate the range of this wheel. I'm sure you're going to get a lot of fun kilometers out of yours :D

Unfortunately performing these super long range tests take a big chunk of time. Hoping I can get the time to do another one.

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2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

There's no doubt, the KS18XL is a great wheel. I'm a long distance rider so I really appreciate the range of this wheel. I'm sure you're going to get a lot of fun kilometers out of yours :D

Perfect wheel for you then! I think I'm going to be a long distance rider too, but with my current 15 mile range,  it's hard to say. All I know is that by the time my battery is down to "time to turn around and head home level", I'm only just starting to warm up and thinking "more, more, MORE!!!!" Also, the V8 is starting to feel slower every day...I'm starting to think it's getting jealous about the impending 18XL, as lately it's beeping angrily at me more often than not :efee612b4b:

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Unfortunately performing these super long range tests take a big chunk of time. Hoping I can get the time to do another one.

About your choice of words, the term unfortunate is definitely accurate in terms of people like me impatiently awaiting your next range test. Measured by any other standard, the right expression should be FREAKING AWESOME! ;) :D

But on a serious note, with this can of range, I definitely understand how time-consuming range tests are, and am well aware it's my distributor I need to be putting pressure on, not you! :efee612b4b:


 

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Glad your new setup got tested without injury!

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43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Fall from the XL

Today during my 2nd series of range tests (the XL beats Gotway again, by ~10%) I had another fall where I was strewn across the cement. Fortunately the speed was much lower. While going down a 10-foot grass covered embankment to join up with a sidewalk, there was a nice hollow hidden by the grass, right where the hill joined the sidewalk. The KS18XL stopped immediately but I continued superman style to the ground. I was going 4-mph. My knees hit and I landed on my bad shoulder (still one to two months before full recovery from the Tesla fall).

Here's the big take away; zero injuries. I'm really stoked to have been able to test my new body armor. The Leatt knee pads had some good scraping which saved my knees. The Leatt upper body armor totally protected me. I didn't feel anything in my shoulder or elbows. I got up, brushed myself off, and was able to continue riding. This armor is gold in my book :thumbup:

Glad that had a happy ending.  Yeah, grass will do that to you.  Hidden "gotcha's" everywhere.  The trick with falling on grass...IS TO FALL ON THE GRASS! not the concrete beside it. :D.  Just messing with you; I read the report carefully...wheel stopped "right where the hill joined the sidewalk".  Not even big foot pedals will prevent one from hitting the dirt after a full stop.

Question: what prevented a "walk-off" at this low speed? inquiring minds want to know. Was it the steepness of the grass embankment?

Edited by Smoother
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6 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Glad that had a happy ending.  Yeah, grass will do that to you.  Hidden "gotcha's" everywhere.  The trick with falling on grass...IS TO FALL ON THE GRASS! not the concrete beside it. :D.  Just messing with you; I read the report carefully...wheel stopped "right where the hill joined the sidewalk".  Not even big foot pedals will prevent one from hitting the dirt after a full stop.

Question: what prevented a "walk-off" at this low speed? inquiring minds want to know. Was it the steepness of the grass embankment?

Imagine going down a hill and the wheel stops. Much harder to walk it off. I did stumble a bit but the forward momentum was too much to keep me on my feet. I think if this had happened on level ground I would have run it off like I've done plenty of times in the past.

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13 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Glad that had a happy ending.  Yeah, grass will do that to you.  Hidden "gotcha's" everywhere.  The trick with falling on grass...IS TO FALL ON THE GRASS! not the concrete beside it. :D.  Just messing with you; I read the report carefully...wheel stopped "right where the hill joined the sidewalk".  Not even big foot pedals will prevent one from hitting the dirt after a full stop.

Question: what prevented a "walk-off" at this low speed? inquiring minds want to know. Was it the steepness of the grass embankment?

Despite not being there I think I can guess : the surprise of instant halt.

It is similar to the waterfilled pot hole I were forced into. I tried to be prepared, but the halt sensation still surprised me. I managed to start a twitching moment to avoid a flat hard impact. 

Edited by Unventor
I was typing as Marty post the post before me.
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6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

Nice video! If you speed it up 50% I would swear it was Chooch.  I liked the guy on the bike that stopped and turned around. 

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:12 AM, Marty Backe said:

 

Great video, @Marty Backe!  My 18XL will (FINALLY) be arriving this week! Thanks for feeding my impatient mind with quality footage during the long wait! You've been my "guardian angel" for the past month! (Although with your all-black armor, I'm not sure angel is the right term; "guardian demon", perhaps?) ;):efee612b4b:

Can I make a (constructive) suggestion on sidewalk riding and pedestrians crossings? I hope this doesn't come through as patronizing, it's not my intention (epsecially considering that I'm a new rider and you're much more experienced, Plus, you know I'm a subscriber and huge fan!). Also, I don't mean to sidetrack your post...just trying to provide my point of view about something I noticed in the video, in terms of safety (we need you in one piece!) :)

The car you had to "dodge" in 1:08...Although you did have the right of way, I think the safest option would have been to yield for him. This isn't something I would have thought of a couple of weeks ago, but I've had a couple of close calls with e-scooters while driving my car, which made me aware of a variable I hadn't been factoring in when riding, and which I now try to keep very much in mind: when drivers take a right turn, or approach a pedestrian crossing, they're (we're) looking out for pedestrians who are in the immediate vicinity of the the crossing and approaching it at walking speed; they're not taking into account fast-moving vehicles who suddenly "jump" from their peripheric view to right in front of them in what to a driver feels like a split second.

I say this because the other day I was driving though town, doing 1/2 the speed limit, approached a pedestrian crossing, looked both ways to make sure no one was about to cross, and out of the blue, an e-scooter that had apparently passed my on the sidewalk to my right, did a swift 90º turn and zipped right in front of me (on the pedestrian crossing), which wasn't a possibility I'd factored in. Luckily I caught him out of the corner of my eye beforehand, which gave me enough time to slam on my brakes and avoid hitting him. PEVs involve a whole new level of defensive driving for car drivers (having to anticipate fast-moving vehicles "appearing out of the blue" on traditionally pedestrian areas where they're used to only having to check for slow-moving pedestrians in the immediate vicinity of where they're driving). This is particularly pronounced among city PEV riders who have never driven a car and aren't aware of what it's like to drive a car.

If you rewatch your video, starting at 1:04, you can see the car turning right. As he turns, he's seen that there's no one on the sidewalk (I'm just guessing here), and thinks it's safe to pull into the parking lot. As you approach the sidewalk that he's about to cross, you're clearly going faster than he is, and I seriously doubt he'd anticipated you suddenly appearing in front of him, as you were out of his field of view until right before you cut in front of him. If you look closely at the footage, he stops rather abruptly, and it takes him a few seconds before he starts moving forward, which indicates (at least to me) that you caught him completely by surprise and it took him a few seconds to recover from the unexpected shock.

Note that I'm not trying to be critical and am by no means calling you reckless; I'm just trying to point out an EUC-specific variable I hadn't taken into account myself until now (guilty as charged...), and only became aware of recently when, driving my car, I ecnountered a few similar instances that made me realise how unexpected our presence can be for cars in certain scenarios, and how important it is to slow WAY down when approaching crossing and intersections like this to make sure the driver has seen us before our trajectories meet.

I only bring this up because it's considerably changed my outlook when riding in urban areas (looks like we humans don't realize certains things until they happen to us personally), and thought it was a relevant safety topic worth sharing. My observation is nothing but well-meaning, so I hope you don't take it th wrong way. As I said, we need you in one piece! This community would be doomed without you! :) :thumbup:

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@travsformation I agree with you on most tearms, but...

@Marty Backe wrote in earlyer coment, he state he had eye contact with the drive of the car, this makes the hole differance. 

Now on principle I do agree with you that is also why I started that reflective wear and gear thread, as in darkness this become much more iminent that people sport you in time. 

Thats is why I dislike the black looks as imho is not suited for traffic at all on a sidewalk, bycycle or moped or MC, which of course puts the EUC in there too due to speed and where you drive in general on road and pathways. 

Now eye contact is also one of the reason why I began to look for a replacement to my TSG Pass helmet. As Marty know I dislike sunlight :) as it pust me in a possition where I often need sunglasses. On my TSG Pass it fit so snug that I can't fit glasses neither when putting on the helmet or afterwards. That left me with my mirrowed visor as sunblock option...taking away eyecontat with others in traffic. it looks very cool, but iit is not traffic save...unless you on body pose and hand signals show and gain acceptans that it is ok to go like you planned. the biggest issue I have here are ebikes that don't understand their ride skills are a limit and cars..for some reason, audies, bmws and volvos the bigger the worse....(now i know some disagree on this but never the less this is my general expirance). espicially at roundabouts.

So back to Marty's vedeo, I think it is a perfect example how situations can look differect on video for an outsider and how you as a rider view the situation. Like I didnt see the cyclist waiting for you at first, I had to watch it twice because it all happend so fast. 

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3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

To me it seems you slip a bit a few times. If that is correct, is it due to a "new" wheel conditioning or that you ride faster than you use to do (maybe because of confident in protective gear)? Or just simply suprised by sandy condition?

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Awesome trail riding clip Marty!
Looks like a lot of fun and really loving the Insta One X footage.

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35 minutes ago, Unventor said:

@travsformation I agree with you on most tearms, but...

@Marty Backe wrote in earlyer coment, he state he had eye contact with the drive of the car, this makes the hole differance. 

Now on principle I do agree with you that is also why I started that reflective wear and gear thread, as in darkness this become much more iminent that people sport you in time. 

I hadn't read @Marty Backe's comment on eye contact. My bad....Although I can't say I'm surprised...making a fool out of myself has always been one of my strong points... :efef2e0fff::efee612b4b:

Still, the subject is definitely worth taking into account all the same (for ALL riders). If my safety rant ends up creating awareness (for anyone) on this particular aspect, I'll feel it was worth making an ass out of myself :D

@Unventor As you say, eye contact is very important. I always try to use hand gestures too, usually a wave of the hand as in "thank you for yielding for me", to which drivers usually respond either with a slight nod or the classic "several-finger-salute", without taking their hand of the steering wheel; that way I make sure they've aknowledged my presence and intention to cross "their path".

42 minutes ago, Unventor said:

So back to Marty's vedeo, I think it is a perfect example how situations can look differect on video for an outsider and how you as a rider view the situation. Like I didnt see the cyclist waiting for you at first, I had to watch it twice because it all happend so fast.  

Excellent point. I clearly need to improve my forensic video anlysis skills...perhaps @Rehab1 can give me a few pointers: he's clearly the right man for the job: ;)

46395817592_5643c402b5_b.jpg

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2 hours ago, travsformation said:

My 18XL will (FINALLY) be arriving this week!

Wow, I was wondering what took so long! Cool!

2 hours ago, travsformation said:

Can I make a (constructive) suggestion on sidewalk riding and pedestrians crossings?

...

You're well-intentioned, but in my opinion... nah:

  • Car drivers won't learn about PEVs until they are forced to, so all this too-defensive stuff leads nowhere. They need to learn and adapt, too. Being too defensive (= easily ignorable) doesn't help.
  • In the same vein, the real problem here is the lack of proper biking infrastructure. The sidewalk should be for pedestrians only. But it isn't. Because it is the only safe and sane choice for a EUC here, because there's no bike path and that road doesn't look too safe to ride in peace. This lack of proper infrastructure will also not be highlighted if there never are any problems as a consequence of this.
  • Nothing more dangerous than silently yielding to people when you don't have to (this has nothing to do with EUCs, applies to anyone in traffic). You add another big uncertainty into the traffic culture, especially for future situations if people can no longer reliably guess which traffic participant is going to do what in any given situation.
    It can be friendly to just yield for practical reasons, but then it should be done ostentatiously, hyper-obviously to everyone looking (full stop, hand signs, etc. - which takes a bit of time), but certainly not silently and sneakily.

Of course I'm not saying we should let ourselves be hit by cars for the good cause. But for every situation where one wouldn't get hit, just keep with the rules as they should be, proceeding safe but speedily. Like Marty did. "Everyone slow down but still follow the rules" is safer, more productive to a good PEV-including traffic culture, and easier on everyone (cars included) than "ok, now nobody knows what exactly is going on here any longer".

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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4 hours ago, travsformation said:

The car you had to "dodge" in 1:08...Although you did have the right of way, I think the safest option would have been to yield for him. This isn't something I would have thought of a couple of weeks ago, but I've had a couple of close calls with e-scooters while driving my car, which made me aware of a variable I hadn't been factoring in when riding, and which I now try to keep very much in mind: when drivers take a right turn, or approach a pedestrian crossing, they're (we're) looking out for pedestrians who are in the immediate vicinity of the the crossing and approaching it at walking speed; they're not taking into account fast-moving vehicles who suddenly "jump" from their peripheric view to right in front of them in what to a driver feels like a split second.

I say this because the other day I was driving though town, doing 1/2 the speed limit, approached a pedestrian crossing, looked both ways to make sure no one was about to cross, and out of the blue, an e-scooter that had apparently passed my on the sidewalk to my right, did a swift 90º turn and zipped right in front of me (on the pedestrian crossing), which wasn't a possibility I'd factored in. Luckily I caught him out of the corner of my eye beforehand, which gave me enough time to slam on my brakes and avoid hitting him. PEVs involve a whole new level of defensive driving for car drivers (having to anticipate fast-moving vehicles "appearing out of the blue" on traditionally pedestrian areas where they're used to only having to check for slow-moving pedestrians in the immediate vicinity of where they're driving). This is particularly pronounced among city PEV riders who have never driven a car and aren't aware of what it's like to drive a car.

If you rewatch your video, starting at 1:04, you can see the car turning right. As he turns, he's seen that there's no one on the sidewalk (I'm just guessing here), and thinks it's safe to pull into the parking lot. As you approach the sidewalk that he's about to cross, you're clearly going faster than he is, and I seriously doubt he'd anticipated you suddenly appearing in front of him, as you were out of his field of view until right before you cut in front of him. If you look closely at the footage, he stops rather abruptly, and it takes him a few seconds before he starts moving forward, which indicates (at least to me) that you caught him completely by surprise and it took him a few seconds to recover from the unexpected shock.

Note that I'm not trying to be critical and am by no means calling you reckless; I'm just trying to point out an EUC-specific variable I hadn't taken into account myself until now (guilty as charged...), and only became aware of recently when, driving my car, I ecnountered a few similar instances that made me realise how unexpected our presence can be for cars in certain scenarios, and how important it is to slow WAY down when approaching crossing and intersections like this to make sure the driver has seen us before our trajectories meet.

I only bring this up because it's considerably changed my outlook when riding in urban areas (looks like we humans don't realize certains things until they happen to us personally), and thought it was a relevant safety topic worth sharing. My observation is nothing but well-meaning, so I hope you don't take it th wrong way. As I said, we need you in one piece! This community would be doomed without you! :) :thumbup:

That's EXACTLY what I said.  Or, maybe I said " you should have yielded to that Honda".  OK, I WANTED to say what you said, but I couldn't be arsed to do all that typing.:facepalm:

 

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1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Car drivers won't learn about PEVs until they are forced to, so all this too-defensive stuff leads nowhere. They need to learn and adapt, too. Being too defensive (= easily ignorable) doesn't help.

All of these are personal choices and there really isn't a right anwer, so all I can say is that from my point of view, I'd rather be defensive and extra-cautious. Yes, I would like to contribute to forcing drivers to learn to take us into account, but I don't particularly fancy doing so by rolling over the hood of their car (done it once, don't much fancy repeating it...) :efee612b4b: I'll leave it to the braver riders to educate the gas-guzzling community ;)

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In the same vein, the real problem here is the lack of proper biking infrastructure. The sidewalk should be for pedestrians only. But it isn't. Because it is the only safe and sane choice for a EUC here, because there's no bike path and that road doesn't look too safe to ride in peace. This lack of proper infrastructure will also not be highlighted if there never are any problems as a consequence of this.

100% with you on that one. Although there is a rider responsibility side to the coin worth taking into account. If you saw how, regarless of infrastructure, some e-scooters ride here...shifting from bike lane to road to sidewalk as if they were the only people on the road. I don't see any need to create easily preventable safety hazzards and stress for other road/walkway users. It's like what it said in the article I posted in the "In the news" thread: It all boils down to attitude and respect/consideration towards others (Note: I'm not saying anyone in this forum lacks that attitude. An unnecessary clarification, perhaps, but just for in case) :)

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Nothing more dangerous than silently yielding to people when you don't have to (this has nothing to do with EUCs, applies to anyone in traffic). You add another big uncertainty into the traffic culture, especially for future situations if people can no longer reliably guess which traffic participant is going to do what in any given situation.

Although I understand and share your opinion, my riding style/choices are more about self-reservation and corteous riding than about educating drivers or pedestrians. I'd love to contribute to driving culture, but not at the expense of my own safety. I also think this factor varies enormously from country to country: I remember that after touring Germany for several months with my trusty campervan, with no issues whatsoever and being able to drive relaxedly, the minute I crossed the French border, I suddenly had to be on edge all the time to avoid an accident due to the ridiculous amount of reckless manoeuvres unfolding all around me. In Spain, the general motto is "I ALWAYS have the right of way" and "screw you if you don't like it". And needless to say, that attitude applies to cars, bicycles, PEVs, pedestrians...you name it. So being overly defensive is an essential requirement for...not dying :efee612b4b: 

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Of course I'm not saying we should let ourselves be hit by cars for the good cause. But for every situation where one wouldn't get hit, just keep with the rules as they should be, proceeding safe but speedily.

Perhaps that's the key that explains my differing perspective: no one follows the rules here, Although I entirely agree with Marty's quote of "'Everyone slow down but still follow the rules' is safer, more productive to a good PEV-including traffic culture, and easier on everyone (cars included) than 'ok, now nobody knows what exactly is going on here any longer'", I think the last bit pretty much sums up what riding is like here: "Nobody knows what's going on" (they don't now that PEVs are part of the equation, and they didn't beefore PEVs either) :efee612b4b:

Thus my approach: PEVs or no PEVs, cars or bicycles, safe, curteous mobility is a lost cause here (believe me, it really is). Even if I managed to "educate" 1% of users, I'd still have the other 95% to worry about, so my own safety (and respecting that of others) is my top priority.

I've never had a car accident, and MAN has it been close a few times (I've been run off the road several times--one of them on a mountain road, ending up 1/2m from a cliff--, done a full 1080º spin on the highway because a truck rolled over right in front of me, and countless other close calls), and every time, I got out of it unscathed because I was what my friends call "overly cautious". That approach has worked for me so far (and saved my life quite a few times), so out of necessity, it's the one I'm going to stick with. Perhaps I failed to take into account, in my OP, that the particular driving/riding circumstances here aren't necessarily applicable in other places.

Luckily, it's not like that everywhere, so I'm glad for those of you who don't have to be in hyper-alert mode all the time. :)

In any case, I hope my previous "safety rant" didn't come through as patronizing, and I apologize to @Marty Backe for a) Being a smart-@$$ little sh*t, and b) Completely sidetracking your post. :efeec46606:  I can't help it, sidetracking the sidetracks that I've already sidetracked with other sidetracks is just how my brain works... :facepalm:  (and then I complain about Spanish lack of orderliness. Doesn't get any more ironic than that...) :efef2e0fff::efee612b4b:

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