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Jason McNeil

Electric Scooter Classifications

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If you are going to classify scooters, then you need to do with something meaningful such as by the parameters that matter most ... motor power (W), battery size (Wh) and max speed (kph). You could create a 3-letter code (one letter for each category) to classify the scooter (e.g. Class AAA = Motor Power > 500W, Battery > 1000Wh and Max Speed > 50kph). I'll leave it to you to work out the exact classifications. Doing it this way keeps things simple, easy to maintain, easy to understand and makes it easy to compare products.

Edited by Nic
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How about using this easy to understand classification:  

  1. Commuter cruiser  
  2. Rapid Transit GT
  3. Deathwish Sport Speed Demon  :w00t2:

Maybe just use the “Deathwish” part for internal office purposes.  :whistling:

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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Too many classifications that aren't directly or usefully comparably with other electric competitors.

If you use the eBike classification of three (class 1, 2, and 3 which is mostly a functional comparison), then would be easier for consumers. Also, the eBike classification is both an ISO standard and a legal standard (eBikes are required to ship with said class sticker), therefore many shoppers ar familiar with the eBike standard.

Functionally, the three classes are:

C1 up to 20 mph

C2 up to 30 mph with assistance

C3 up to 30 mph with throttle

C4 and beyond are classified as scooters and require licensing compliance.

20 mph is pretty fast in the sense that you cannot easily hear another person next to you, so practically speaking eScooters with their impractical wheels shouldn't go faster than 20 mph.

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3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Too many classifications that aren't directly or usefully comparably with other electric competitors.

If you use the eBike classification of three (class 1, 2, and 3 which is mostly a functional comparison), then would be easier for consumers. Also, the eBike classification is both an ISO standard and a legal standard (eBikes are required to ship with said class sticker), therefore many shoppers ar familiar with the eBike standard.

Functionally, the three classes are:

C1 up to 20 mph

C2 up to 30 mph with assistance

C3 up to 30 mph with throttle

C4 and beyond are classified as scooters and require licensing compliance.

20 mph is pretty fast in the sense that you cannot easily hear another person next to you, so practically speaking eScooters with their impractical wheels shouldn't go faster than 20 mph.

lol go 20mph on a scooter and I can outrun it. That’s not fast at all. 

Impractical wheels? Not at all, there are issues with stability until you hit the turbulent 40+mph limits and then you need the ultra wide tires the dualtrons offer. 

7 hours ago, Nic said:

If you are going to classify scooters, then you need to do with something meaningful such as by the parameters that matter most ... motor power (W), battery size (Wh) and max speed (kph). You could create a 3-letter code (one letter for each category) to classify the scooter (e.g. Class AAA = Motor Power > 500W, Battery > 1000Wh and Max Speed > 50kph). I'll leave it to you to work out the exact classifications. Doing it this way keeps things simple, easy to maintain, easy to understand and makes it easy to compare products.

I like this classification except motor power is trivial when you already know the max speed. Maybe substitute braking ability grade instead 👍🏾

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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9 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I like this classification except motor power is trivial when you already know the max speed. Maybe substitute braking ability grade instead 👍🏾

If you are a heavy person living in a hilly area, motor power is very important and is not the same as max speed. A scooter like the Xiaomi M365 has a max speed around 18mph, but that drops to zero of a steep hill.

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Just now, Nic said:

If you are a heavy person living in a hilly area, motor power is very important and is not the same as max speed. A scooter like the Xiaomi M365 has a max speed around 18mph, but that drops to zero of a steep hill.

Ah I see. if you’re going up hills dual vs single motor should matter more to you then. 

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2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Ah I see. if you’re going up hills dual vs single motor should matter more to you then. 

Its the same thing ... single 500w = dual 250w motor.

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5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

lol go 20mph on a scooter and I can outrun it. That’s not fast at all. 

Impractical wheels? Not at all, there are issues with stability until you hit the turbulent 40+mph limits and then you need the ultra wide tires the dualtrons offer. 

 👍🏾

I'll bet that you cannot out run my 20 mph limited bicycle. 

I'll give you 20 to 1 odds, so if you get a thousand dollars I'll put my 20 thousand up against you.

What distance are you comfortable with? I'm thinking a mere 1/4 mile would be adequate.

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42 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I'll bet that you cannot out run my 20 mph limited bicycle. 

I'll give you 20 to 1 odds, so if you get a thousand dollars I'll put my 20 thousand up against you.

What distance are you comfortable with? I'm thinking a mere 1/4 mile would be adequate.

You’ll lose that money buddy 😂

a human can’t sustain top speed for a 1/4 mile. I’ll beat you the length of a football field.

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9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You’ll lose that money buddy 😂

a human can’t sustain top speed for a 1/4 mile. I’ll beat you the length of a football field.

You specified 20 mph as not fast at all. Presumably that means slow. Sloooow....that means sustainable. A sprint does not mean slow. We don't agree on our definitions.

Since you want a football field and that does seem possible, then you want 1 to 1 odds? I'll put a thousand down to your thousand. If you're confident in winning then let's do it.

Here are attempts at a mere 13 mph.

Here is 20.5 mph.

 

Those all look slow to you?

Edited by LanghamP

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Darrel is an oplypic Srinter. Sprinters are a different breed. I think most of them can hit 20 mph fairly easy. Usain Bolt hits 28 mph.  

Having said that, I think my wife could beat Darrel in a marathon. Sprinters are not made for marathons. It is kinda a personal hell for them. It would be like running a dragster in the Indianapolis 500.

Edited by RockyTop
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Way too many classifications. How does a customer know whether he should get a class 9 or 10?

Even the ebike classes are due to clear functional differences (for the rider, not technical details). All the scooters are the same. Does it matter if it has one or two motors if it behaves the same (top speed, acceleration) regardless?

Jason, you know best, you get the customers asking what they should buy.

But the normal interested newbie won't even know that W = power (feeling) and Wh = range.

Maybe go for "beginner and intermediate" and "performance", like you do for EUCs. Or "safe and simple, you can give your kid one and not worry" vs. "serious business". Top speed is a good approximation for that (because, what else is there?).

Or grade by various features that turn out to be important for the rider (you have to know what those are, I don't:efee47c9c8:).

Top speed or best speed (what speed is still comfortable and safe) - simple city short commuter, pretty fast, racer.

Weight/portability - normal, ultralight, heavy.

Stability (overlaps with top speed and tire size) - wobbly (find a better word), normal, rock-solid

Maybe acceleration? Relaxed - powerful - cannonball.

And so on.

Imagine nice pictograms with 2 or 3 options for each aspect and a nice big arrow pointing at the applicable one (allowing people to see what applies to the scooter they are looking at and what the alternatives are) for various standardized aspects of a scooter.

I don't think a complicated, arbitrarily numbered class list will help anybody.

Also, explain, explain, explain the basics.

"The battery capacity, in Wh (Watt-hour), tells you how much range you get. More is better. Also please consider, the faster you ride, the more battery you'll need due to higher wind resistance."

"The motor power, in W (Watt), along with the number of motors (two vs one), tells you how quickly the scooter will accelerate and how sporty it feels."

:efee47c9c8:

Price distinctions will do the rest in getting people to choose in some way.

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On 12/23/2018 at 4:08 PM, Jason McNeil said:

This year interest & sales of eScooters has surpassed Electric Unicycle sales—this isn't to say that the market for Electric Unicycles is diminishing, in fact Wheel sales were up 2.5x over last year :)but with the continued deep pocketed expansion of the eScooter rental business, it's fairly certain that more people will take to Electric Scooter ownership, with a corresponding number of new suppliers/models being released to meet this demand. In the past two weeks, I've launched three new products: the Dualtron Spider, Turbowheel Hornet & the Turbowheel Dart. The Turbowheel brand will be the eWheels branded line of scooters, since the Chinese manufacturer names are both unfamiliar & IMO not the most marketable...  

During the exercise of launching these new scooter lines, it had me thinking that there should be some sort of broad classification of eScooters for prospective buyers to have a sense of where a particular model falls into. Similar to what we witnessed back in 2014-2015 for Electric Unicycles, where >80% products were pretty dreadful 16 cell, 350W machines, most of the scooters being pumped out of China are the 8" <300Wh, 250W feeble eScooters that won't last more than a few months on the rental circuit—in the Bloomberg article, it was claimed the average replacement rate is less than four months. There's quite a few other differentiators beyond just the wheel diameter, single/dual motor setup & speed, such as braking capabilities, whether they have branded battery cells (most of the cheap ones do not), but there is a rough approximation between Scooter quality & its performance. 

What do you think of these classifications? Are 10 categories sufficient to capture the different classes?  

Class 1: Cheap carbon-fiber scooters
Class 2: 8”, <300Wh, <30kph.  ES2, Xiaomi 365, Stryder (280Wh), Gotrax GXL, Swagtron 5
Class 3: 8”, 300-600Wh, >30kph.  ES4, UScooter V/S+, EcoReco L5/L5+
Class 4: 8”, >600Wh, >30kph. Mini4, T8/Zero 8
Class 5: 9”, single-motor, >600Wh. Dart/T9/Zero 9.
Class 6: 10“, single-motor. SW III, IV, T10/Zero 10  
Class 7: 8”, dual-motor. Hornet, DT Raptor
Class 8: 10“, dual-motor, ultralight. DT Spider 
Class 9: 10”,  dual-motor, >1kWh. DT3, DT2, D4+, D5+
Class 10: 11”, dual-motor, ultra-wide tire. Thunder, Ultra

More than enough, simple is the way to go imho, but you know these things better than I do so will be fine..

For me personally thinking about classifications I think in the lines of, weight, range, power and perhaps quality in the side notes?

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7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

You specified 20 mph as not fast at all. Presumably that means slow. Sloooow....that means sustainable. A sprint does not mean slow. We don't agree on our definitions.

Since you want a football field and that does seem possible, then you want 1 to 1 odds? I'll put a thousand down to your thousand. If you're confident in winning then let's do it.

Here are attempts at a mere 13 mph.

Here is 20.5 mph.

 

Those all look slow to you?

Treadmill runs are not realistic, all you’re doing is turning over your feet while a conveyor moves underneath you. Those guys who go 20mph+ on a treadmill can’t physically produce the force to propel their bodies at that speed. They can only cycle their legs fast enough. They’re all pretty slow compared to world class sprinters. 

And I quoted you in the context of you saying scooters shouldn’t go faster than 20mph because that’s “fast”. For a scooter it’s slow. Try a dualtron and feel the stability at speeds in excess of 30mph.

I was on my DThunder going 55mph this morning on a 50mph Street. The only instability was from that much wind resistance blowing at you while standing. No wobbles from the Thunder, even over bumps at that speed

 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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On 12/23/2018 at 10:08 AM, Jason McNeil said:

This year interest & sales of eScooters has surpassed Electric Unicycle sales—this isn't to say that the market for Electric Unicycles is diminishing, in fact Wheel sales were up 2.5x over last year :)but with the continued deep pocketed expansion of the eScooter rental business, it's fairly certain that more people will take to Electric Scooter ownership, with a corresponding number of new suppliers/models being released to meet this demand. In the past two weeks, I've launched three new products: the Dualtron Spider, Turbowheel Hornet & the Turbowheel Dart. The Turbowheel brand will be the eWheels branded line of scooters, since the Chinese manufacturer names are both unfamiliar & IMO not the most marketable...  

During the exercise of launching these new scooter lines, it had me thinking that there should be some sort of broad classification of eScooters for prospective buyers to have a sense of where a particular model falls into. Similar to what we witnessed back in 2014-2015 for Electric Unicycles, where >80% products were pretty dreadful 16 cell, 350W machines, most of the scooters being pumped out of China

The turbowheel line at eWheels is looking very good Jason!! I might have to pick up a Hornet... trolley wheels, HORN!, hydraulic brakes, and a locking key! I did like the turn signals on the speedway 3, (but it was too dim)

5 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Darrel is an oplypic Srinter. Sprinters are a different breed. I think most of them can hit 20 mph fairly easy. Usain Bolt hits 28 mph.  

Having said that, I think my wife could beat Darrel in a marathon. Sprinters are not made for marathons. It is kinda a personal hell for them. It would be like running a dragster in the Indianapolis 500.

Very true lol. I have no doubts most people can beat me in a marathon because I would never finish 

Edited by Darrell Wesh

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19 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Treadmill runs are not realistic, all you’re doing is turning over your feet while a conveyor moves underneath you. Those guys who go 20mph+ on a treadmill can’t physically produce the force to propel their bodies at that speed. They can only cycle their legs fast enough. They’re all pretty slow compared to world class sprinters. 

And I quoted you in the context of you saying scooters shouldn’t go faster than 20mph because that’s “fast”. For a scooter it’s slow. Try a dualtron and feel the stability at speeds in excess of 30mph.

You could define your definition of slow so it's consistent.

Consider:

20 mph on a scooter is so slow that it can be outrun by a world class sprinter, but not over any distance to speak of. For the majority of us, 28 mph isn't achievable, and even 14 mph is only achievable for a dozen seconds by people who regularly run. One might as well say that drivers are all pretty slow compared to F1 drivers.

Therefore, by the definition of "being able to easily outrun <x> speed" 20 mph is very fast.

And the human limit of about 12 mph for endurance running (the majority of us can run 10-12 mph for at least a few minutes) because that's the speed at which we can fall and sustain minimal injuries.

This is important because now we can classify speeds according to the likelyhood of injury to an unprotected person.

12 mph or below = slow because minimal injuries.

12 mph to 20 mph = moderate because of moderate injuries.

20 mph and greater = fast because of the high likelihood of big injuries. 

All these speeds can be modified upward according to how much protective equipment you wear, but realistically a significant portion (perhaps the majority) of riders will have no protection whatsoever. For example, getting inside a car means 20 mph is slow because of its virtue of protection (you get in the car and just by being inside it you have some protection at speed).

Therefore, hoping off 55 mph and getting on a limited 20 mph scooter may make you think it's slow when it is not, and that can be verified by simply ghosting your scooter at its top speed and observing the injuries you incur.

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16 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

You could define your definition of slow so it's consistent.

Consider:

20 mph on a scooter is so slow that it can be outrun by a world class sprinter, but not over any distance to speak of. For the majority of us, 28 mph isn't achievable, and even 14 mph is only achievable for a dozen seconds by people who regularly run. One might as well say that drivers are all pretty slow compared to F1 drivers.

Therefore, by the definition of "being able to easily outrun <x> speed" 20 mph is very fast.

And the human limit of about 12 mph for endurance running (the majority of us can run 10-12 mph for at least a few minutes) because that's the speed at which we can fall and sustain minimal injuries.

This is important because now we can classify speeds according to the likelyhood of injury to an unprotected person.

12 mph or below = slow because minimal injuries.

12 mph to 20 mph = moderate because of moderate injuries.

20 mph and greater = fast because of the high likelihood of big injuries. 

All these speeds can be modified upward according to how much protective equipment you wear, but realistically a significant portion (perhaps the majority) of riders will have no protection whatsoever. For example, getting inside a car means 20 mph is slow because of its virtue of protection (you get in the car and just by being inside it you have some protection at speed).

Therefore, hoping off 55 mph and getting on a limited 20 mph scooter may make you think it's slow when it is not, and that can be verified by simply ghosting your scooter at its top speed and observing the injuries you incur.

You are over complicating things that everyone seems to get but you lol. I imagine your electric scooter can reach its 20mph top speed within the span a footbal field, so why would the race need to drag out any further than that? Then it’s just endurance not speed. If a human being can beat an electrically powered wheeled vehicle at a distance where they both can reach their top speeds then it’s comparitively “slow” to a human being. 

No idea why you’re talking about injuries all of a sudden when that’s entirely depending on context. 10-12mph fall could be a dramatic injury(broken wrist etc) or it could not be. That’s not a blanket statement you can make. A 300lb man crashing down at 10mph is VERY different than a 120lb teenager falling. 

Also, 12mph is not something most people can sustain for a few minutes😂. That’s actually the top speed most people can only sustain for a few seconds 

Running a 4 minute mile is extremely fast for a human. Only about 800+ people have done it. That averages to 15 mph.

Elite Marathoner's run roughly 5 minutes per mile for 26.2 miles. Which is 12mph. Which is insanely fast.

6 min mile pace = 10mph

You have a lot of illogical statements in your argument. 

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1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

12 mph or below = slow because minimal injuries.

12 mph to 20 mph = moderate because of moderate injuries.

20 mph and greater = fast because of the high likelihood of big injuries. 

That's a great idea for a speed classification! For EUCs, it's about Ninebot speed, then up to 30-35kph, and then everything faster where a fall will be really serious. Just like you say, 12mph, 20, more.

Though I'd change 12mph/20kph to 25kph so something like a V5F doesn't fall in the middle category, but the first. So 25kph max, 35, or more.

Just don't call it "slow, moderate, fast". Maybe

For Everyone - Performance - Enthusiast/Extreme/Racer.

Works for EUCs and scooters.

You want to buy a scooter for your kid, or to lend to a visiting friend? Get a "For Everyone" and you know you're good. Want a powerful commuter? "Performance". Want the best that's available? "Extreme".

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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8 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's a great idea for a speed classification! For EUCs, it's about Ninebot speed, then up to 30-35kph, and then everything faster where a fall will be really serious. Just like you say, 12mph, 20, more.

Though I'd change 12mph/20kph to 25kph so something like a V5F doesn't fall in the middle category, but the first. So 25kph max, 35, or more.

Just don't call it "slow, moderate, fast". Maybe

For Everyone - Performance - Enthusiast/Extreme/Racer.

Works for EUCs and scooters.

You want to buy a scooter for your kid, or to lend to a visiting friend? Get a "For Everyone" and you know you're good. Want a powerful commuter? "Performance". Want the best that's available? "Extreme".

The problem with this classification for EUC’s is that having more speed/power is “safer”. In case of hitting a pothole, or a heavy person overleaning to accelerate, or going up hills without cutting out. You don’t have to go as fast as the top speed. Just like a car, you don’t have to go 140mph. Having much speed in reserve is fantastic, and most if not all apps allow you to set tiltback at a level that is APPROPRIATE for your skill or age level. 

The problem as well is that people will fall on 14” more easily then on a nice big stable 18”. 18” handles potholes and uneven terrain a hell of a lot better. An 18” by being less “twitchy” is also easier to learn on. But most 18” have high top speeds so now you’re scaring people by labeling it “extreme” or “racer”. 

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Good point. Doesn't really work for EUCs, because no EUC will limit itself to 25kph when it could go 40 or 50.

But for scooters I think it makes sense.

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@LanghamP here is a video of me giving a road bike and a Segway minipro a headstart and slowing down in the middle of the race(before having to reaccelerate!) and winning. Maybe 70yards. 

The segway was beeping the first half going it’s top speed of 11mph before giving up. The biker and I were probably going 22-24mph 

Edited by Darrell Wesh

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3 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You are over complicating things that everyone seems to get but you lol. I imagine your electric scooter can reach its 20mph top speed within the span a footbal field, so why would the race need to drag out any further than that? Then it’s just endurance not speed. If a human being can beat an electrically powered wheeled vehicle at a distance where they both can reach their top speeds then it’s comparitively “slow” to a human being. 

No idea why you’re talking about injuries all of a sudden when that’s entirely depending on context. 10-12mph fall could be a dramatic injury(broken wrist etc) or it could not be. That’s not a blanket statement you can make. A 300lb man crashing down at 10mph is VERY different than a 120lb teenager falling. 

Also, 12mph is not something most people can sustain for a few minutes😂. That’s actually the top speed most people can only sustain for a few seconds 

Running a 4 minute mile is extremely fast for a human. Only about 800+ people have done it. That averages to 15 mph.

Elite Marathoner's run roughly 5 minutes per mile for 26.2 miles. Which is 12mph. Which is insanely fast.

6 min mile pace = 10mph

You have a lot of illogical statements in your argument. 

I'll simplify.

At what speed is slow?

At what speed is fast?

The potential to injuries is the basis of speed limits around the world; therefore that is why I reference it. If you believe the potential to injury to speed is invalid, then provide an alternative judgement.

Consider: racetracks have no speed limits but their pit roads do.

Consider: every auto civilization has speed limits. Why?

On 12/24/2018 at 12:02 AM, LanghamP said:

lol go 20mph on a scooter and I can outrun it. That’s not fast at all. 

This is your original statement. I disagree with it; most people cannot outrun 20 mph except for the shortest of distances, and tripping while doing so results in a moderate fall.

Such a sprint is the opposite of "that's not fast at all". Ergo, "slow".

Finally, EUCs aren't the main subject because this is under eScooters.

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