Electric Scooter Classifications

[RockyTop]

9 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

On 12/24/2018 at 1:02 AM, LanghamP said:

lol go 20mph on a scooter and I can outrun it. That’s not fast at all. 

This is your original statement. I disagree with it; most people cannot outrun 20 mph except for the shortest of distances, and tripping while doing so results in a moderate fall.

Such a sprint is the opposite of "that's not fast at all". Ergo, "slow".

Finally, EUCs aren't the main subject because this is under eScooters.

@LanghamP I am confused.  Are you arguing with yourself now? Both say LanghamP said:  

The trick here is that 2 mph is too fast for my 94 year old grandmother and 20 mph is slow for Darrell and the rest of us are somewhere in between. (According to RockyTop's theory of relativity.)  

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I'll simplify.

At what speed is slow?

At what speed is fast?

Consider: every auto civilization has speed limits. Why?

This is your original statement. I disagree with it; most people cannot outrun 20 mph except for the shortest of distances, and tripping while doing so results in a moderate fall.

You’re talking in riddles now. It’s a simple concept. Speed is subjective and based on comparisons. If you race someone and beat them then it’s only natural that you can say “you’re too slow.” Somebody is indeed “slow” or “slower” than you if you can outrun them. Because you’d be basing your comparison on the slower runner to yourself. I can indeed call a 20mph scooter “slow” if I can reach a higher top speed then it which means I can also catch it from behind and pass it. (I’m also calling it slow compared to other scooters)

If we both had the same top speed then the race would be determined by who reaches that top speed the fastest (acceleration) and decelerates less (assuming the race involves endurance)

I’m not sure why you are still in disbelief that I would win when I provided semi video proof of speeds way in excess of 11mph, vs a bike capable of 30mph speeds😂 I’ll try and race my friends ks14s next time (18.6mph) and when I blow it away you’ll probably still not believe I’ll win 😂

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You’re talking in riddles now. It’s a simple concept. Speed is

Blah

Blah

, vs a bike capable of 30mph speeds😂 I’ll try and race my friends ks14s next time (18.6mph) and when I blow it away you’ll probably still not believe I’ll win 

I wonder if you're even reading my words instead of just skimming them, and then merely using ad hominem arguments instead of carefully rebuttals. If you're using a lot of "you're an idiot" in your speech then that's probably an excellent indication you're not even trying to understand what the other person is saying.

At any meaningful distance the scooter wins every time against a runner. The only time the runner can win is at 100 yard dashes and below and even then that requires a full-on sprint. Therefore, to a runner a scooter that goes 20 mph is fast. As far as I can tell, there is no race offering prizes to reach a defined speed. All races seem to cover distance. 

In my opinion what you're doing is dismissing any scooter in the 30 mph and below range as slow while riding on a 55 mph scooter. At what point should a scooter be licensed? 12 mph? 20mph? 30? Perhaps 100 mph? Or 180 mph? Even faster? At some point most people would say that is fast and require some safety features along with licensing, insurance, and training.

Government regulations suggest that between 16 mph (European) and 20 mph (US) is where if bicycles exceed then regulations concerning their behavior start, because it is in excess of those speeds that bodily injury is almost guaranteed. To me, with a vehicle where protection is entirely optional, then anything going faster than those speeds is fast because the consequences of screwing up is severe.

Here is a simple question for you.

At what speed do you think you can fall off your scooter, entirely unprotected, and suffer no injuries?

Edited December 26, 2018 by LanghamP

[Nic]

Gentlemen please ... I think Jason will understand your suggestions.

[Darrell Wesh]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I wonder if you're even reading my words instead of just skimming them, and then merely using ad hominem arguments instead of carefully rebuttals. If you're using a lot of "you're an idiot" in your speech then that's probably an excellent indication you're not even trying to understand what the other person is saying.

At any meaningful distance the scooter wins every time against a runner. The only time the runner can win is at 100 yard dashes and below and even then that requires a full-on sprint. Therefore, to a runner a scooter that goes 20 mph is fast. As far as I can tell, there is no race offering prizes to reach a defined speed. All races seem to cover distance. 

In my opinion what you're doing is dismissing any scooter in the 30 mph and below range as slow while riding on a 55 mph scooter. At what point should a scooter be licensed? 12 mph? 20mph? 30? Perhaps 100 mph? Or 180 mph? Even faster? At some point most people would say that is fast and require some safety features along with licensing, insurance, and training.

Government regulations suggest that between 16 mph (European) and 20 mph (US) is where if bicycles exceed then regulations concerning their behavior start, because it is in excess of those speeds that bodily injury is almost guaranteed. To me, with a vehicle where protection is entirely optional, then anything going faster than those speeds is fast because the consequences of screwing up is severe.

Here is a simple question for you.

At what speed do you think you can fall off your scooter, entirely unprotected, and suffer no injuries?

Why are you still posting that same drivel about “meaningful distance”? The 100m dash is THE absolute king of distances for measuring speed. It’s the most meaningful distance. Unless you’re into US football than we can do a 40yard dash and I’ll blow it away even more at that. I don’t think you understand how to measure speed. You completely ignored my sane logic I posted in my prior post. I’ll make it simple and give the one question you NEED to respond to instead of circling around the argument with some nonsense about injuries no one brought up except you

1) It’s common sense that once you reach your top speed everything after is maintenance aka endurance. This bet won’t be an endurance race. Your scooter can reach its top speed in 100yards/meters and so can I. So why is that not a “meaningful distance” for a race of speed 😂😂?? 

 

Considering how slow a one motor scooter accelerates I highly doubt the race will even be close enough for me to have to resort to a full out sprint btw. 

Now to answer your question: I have never said just because I am fast or could reach 20+mph speeds that I could run off falls from those speeds. I understand physics and my limitations. Even if I had time to prepare for a dismount at 20mph on a scooter or EUC I don’t think I’d be able to run it off. I’ve posted about this before somewhere. If by fall you mean hit the ground then hell, even at 5mph a fall will give me injuries. You need to clarify (like you always tell me 😄). I wear gear even on my INMOTION v5 going 14mph (kneepads wrist guards). 

 

[dwallersv]

All I've read before this comment was Jason's OP, so this comment is with that in mind: Too many classes. 3 is best, 4 max. You're trying to capture too much detail in the classes. How to consolidate the 10 you have into 3-4 I'll have to think harder about, but maybe something like this:

Class 1, cheap nearly disposable scooters for rental applications, kids, complete noobs that have never ridden and just want something to have fun on touring around Monterrey.

Class 2: Hobbyist rider, more serious, may be a member of an interest group and goes on organized rides, SO probably has one too, may participate in online social media, mod the scooter, etc.

Class 3: Serious machines that hold the top performance specs, records. Premium build quality,  materials, technology. No one riding one of these is a casual owner. Tough to make it in to this class on a single motor. Almost every owner in this class is modding, adding to, tuning, or otherwise evolving their scooter in some way, constantly.

 

Class 2 would be the biggest, and could be split into two different power classes, <XXX watts and <XXX watts.

 

My 2cents

[dwallersv]

On 12/23/2018 at 12:33 PM, LanghamP said:

eScooters with their impractical wheels shouldn't go faster than 20 mph.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(breath)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[dwallersv]

On 12/24/2018 at 2:58 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

Treadmill runs are not realistic, all you’re doing is ... blah blah blah

Boy this thread got really stupid fast. Who let the kids in to the over 21 lounge?

[LanghamP]

26 minutes ago, dwallersv said:

Boy this thread got really stupid fast. Who let the kids in to the over 21 lounge?

You're kinda being an asshole because 1. contributes incomplete info without reading previous posts, and 2. calls people stupid and young without anything else. Those are simply insults whose purpose is to make you feel good at the cost of making others feel bad.

While @Darrell WeshWesh and I disagree with each other (sarcasm notwithstanding), we tell each other why we believe such thinking is faulty, or perhaps modify our statements accordingly. That is the difference between a destructive versus a destructive argument.

Do you think you have ever convinced someone by telling them they are stupid? Next time a cop pulls you over for an infraction, call him stupid and immature and see if that convinced him.

[LanghamP]

On 12/26/2018 at 8:44 AM, Darrell Wesh said:

Now to answer your question: I have never said just because I am fast or could reach 20+mph speeds that I could run off falls from those speeds. I understand physics and my limitations. Even if I had time to prepare for a dismount at 20mph on a scooter or EUC I don’t think I’d be able to run it off. I’ve posted about this before somewhere. If by fall you mean hit the ground then hell, even at 5mph a fall will give me injuries. You need to clarify (like you always tell me 😄). I wear gear even on my INMOTION v5 going 14mph (kneepads wrist guards). 

 

Honestly we're not going anywhere because we cannot budge the other person. We have two different definitions of fast that are somewhat mutually exclusive.

My definition of fast is dependent upon the severity of injuries of a get-off, that is, for the unprotected person around 20 mph is going to hurt a lot.

Your definition of fast is relative to the speed of motorized vehicles and, presumably, the ability to see ahead of you, that is, for scooters reaching over 50 mph then 35 mph is quite slow.

I suggest we leave this term alone until consensus leans one way or another.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, dwallersv said:

Boy this thread got really stupid fast. Who let the kids in to the over 21 lounge?

It’s funny because “kids” are more up to date and know more about modern science than you  “adults” who still believe in the 20th century studies you learned during world war 2. 

[dwallersv]

23 hours ago, LanghamP said:

You're kinda being an asshole because 1. contributes incomplete info without reading previous posts, and 2. calls people stupid and young without anything else. Those are simply insults whose purpose is to make you feel good at the cost of making others feel bad.

While @Darrell WeshWesh and I disagree with each other (sarcasm notwithstanding), we tell each other why we believe such thinking is faulty, or perhaps modify our statements accordingly. That is the difference between a destructive versus a destructive argument.

Do you think you have ever convinced someone by telling them they are stupid? Next time a cop pulls you over for an infraction, call him stupid and immature and see if that convinced him.

My sincere apologies. My intent was entirely light-hearted, just poking a little fun at an off-topic side discussion. Routine in discussion groups. Sorry I was an asshole, although I personally think name-calling with vile epithets in a public forum is a far more serious transgression. Those are my standards.

And my apology for what I did is entirely sincere. As a relatively new member, it's helpful to learn who's sensitive on the forum. I promise @LanghamP and @Darrell Wesh I won't bother you again.

Edited December 31, 2018 by dwallersv

[dwallersv]

22 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

It’s funny because “kids” are more up to date and know more about modern science than you  “adults” who still believe in the 20th century studies you learned during world war 2. 

Apparently you completely misunderstood my reference to kids and adults. Had nothing to do with understanding of modern physics.

Now that you brought it up, and to contribute to, rather than criticize your discussion: The physical metric of interest here is Energy. The severity of material damage, either to equipment or flesh is roughly proportional to amount of energy dissipated during the collision, and the rate of dissipation. The latter isn't usually considered in a collision because they occur very quickly, so almost all of the Kinetic Energy of motion is converted in physical deformation of material/people during the Impulse of the collision, and some heat.

Given that Kinetic Energy is a function of speed squared, the amount of energy dissipated in a collision increases exponentially with speed. This is why crashing a car at 10mph causes almost no damage at all, but 20mph can do quite a bit of damage. 40mph can total a car and turn people into hamburger. It's not 4 time the energy being dissipated at 40mph vs. 10mph, it's SIXTEEN TIMES the energy. That will break alot of stuff that one sixteenth the energy will only scratch.

Of course "speed" is an entirely subjective term, so it's pointless to argue about what's "too fast". That's ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. Hence my criticism over what, in my opinion, was an exceedingly pointless, juvenile side argument. YMMV.

Alright, carry on gentlemen, Asshole out.

Edited December 31, 2018 by dwallersv

[that0n3guy]

I've been in marketing for years and I agree with most that 10 classes are just too many.  Especially since you only actually have a single option in some of the classes.   If its really that complicated, a simple "selection" tool might help.   They choose distance needed, their desire for speed, their body weight, etc...   Then you could provide options like "good long distance option" or "best for distance", "lower price"....

This would also give you an easy way to ask for an email address to help build your email list (could be optional towards the end as they are already warmed up to putting in info).  There is gold in the email list :).

[Bambino]

Very good post.!!

I have KS 18s and interested in buy an e-scooter...

Maybe ninebot ES2... 

Very good post.!!

I have KS 18s and interested in buy an e-scooter...

Maybe ninebot ES2... 

[Bambino]

Very good post.!!

I have KS 18s and interested in buy an e-scooter...

Maybe ninebot ES2... 

[Esper]

I know I'm going off topic here but..

On 12/30/2018 at 8:41 AM, LanghamP said:

Honestly we're not going anywhere because we cannot budge the other person. We have two different definitions of fast that are somewhat mutually exclusive.

My definition of fast is dependent upon the severity of injuries of a get-off, that is, for the unprotected person around 20 mph is going to hurt a lot.

Your definition of fast is relative to the speed of motorized vehicles and, presumably, the ability to see ahead of you, that is, for scooters reaching over 50 mph then 35 mph is quite slow.

I suggest we leave this term alone until consensus leans one way or another.

I disagree with the entire debate between your definitions. Originally, you said you could beat Darrell in a race of a quarter mile. That's 1320 ft. Darrell said he could beat you in a 360 ft race.

You are both correct here. Even I could outrun a 20 mph top speed bike in a short sprint. Anything much more excessive than 320 ft is typically an endurance run. Most marathon runners go an average of 11 mph with the winners usually averaging ~14. Those are marathons are usually 30 or so miles, perhaps more. 

If a 20 mph bike is in a race with a runner that can go faster than 20 mph, then the runner will win until the runner gets tired and slows down.
If a 20 mph bike is in a long distance marathon race with a world champion winner of a distance of about 50 miles (with hills) then the runner might win based on the battery size of the bike. The bike will certainly get further faster, but then slow down and die, at which point the runner will pass. 

Or are we simply arguing definitions of words here instead of the original proposal? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1120474/Man-RACES-Tube-Mansion-House-Cannon-Street-WINS.html
_____________

On to classifications.
I think a 3 number or letter system works well. 10 classes is too much. It makes me think of lasers. I think it can be developed into a system similar to the ingress protection rating. 
first number would be top speed, second would be motor size, third number could be durability.
The definitions for the numbers can be decided upon later but wheel size should not be in a classification because of how easy it is to change a tire size.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Esper

[Bruce Scheffel]

Interesting thread...   I own a #1 - v$350 Aliexpress 250w 10.5ah carbon fiber scooter,  #3  $1000 UScooters Booster S2 Plus, and next month am buying #10  $3850 Dualtron Thunder.   Do I need 3 scooters?  Yes!   They all have their place but its not organized around motor capability at all - it's around foldability and portability.   My 250w Aliexpress carbon fiber scooter will get me from point A to point B the same as a Dualtron Thunder (if within 12-15 miles).  

  I use the cheap carbon fiber scooter - 15lbs when I want to go somewhere close and I'll be bringing the scooter in with and carrying it around while I am there (like drug store, post office, etc.).   I use the UScooters  - 23lbs when I am going somewhere where I can bring the scooter in with me but put it down and not carry it around (like work, a restaurant, a gym locker, dentist office).  And I'll use the Dualtron Thunder  - 95lbs when I am going on long trips where i am either not bringing the scooter inside with me (to the beach, to a park) or when visiting friends and bringing into their garage or home).  Let's face it you aren't going to roll a Thunder into just any store/restaurant and I'll only lock it up when visible (like through a restaurant window).  

So I love the classification system you came up with @Jason McNeil but my classification system is based on bulk/weight of scooter and when I'll use it for different trips  

Edited February 14, 2019 by Bruce Scheffel

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, Bruce Scheffel said:

Interesting thread...   I own a #1 - v$350 Aliexpress 250w 10.5ah carbon fiber scooter,  #3  $1000 UScooters Booster S2 Plus, and next month am buying #10  $3850 Dualtron Thunder.   Do I need 3 scooters?  Yes!   They all have their place but its not organized around motor capability at all - it's around foldability and portability.   My 250w Aliexpress carbon fiber scooter will get me from point A to point B the same as a Dualtron Thunder (if within 12-15 miles).  

  I use the cheap carbon fiber scooter - 15lbs when I want to go somewhere close and I'll be bringing the scooter in with and carrying it around while I am there (like drug store, post office, etc.).   I use the UScooters  - 23lbs when I am going somewhere where I can bring the scooter in with me but put it down and not carry it around (like work, a restaurant, a gym locker, dentist office).  And I'll use the Dualtron Thunder  - 95lbs when I am going on long trips where i am either not bringing the scooter inside with me (to the beach, to a park) or when visiting friends and bringing into their garage or home).  Let's face it you aren't going to roll a Thunder into just any store/restaurant and I'll only lock it up when visible (like through a restaurant window).  

So I love the classification system you came up with @Jason McNeil but my classification system is based on bulk/weight of scooter and when I'll use it for different trips  

Once you get the aftermarket handle on the Dualtron Thunder that attaches to the rear, you can roll it along behind you in the folded position. Or you can be smart and fold it and put it in a shopping cart when you go to stores. 

The weight of the Thunder is only an issue when I have to go up a flight of stairs to get to an apartment or something. Even the larger frame/width of the scooter when rolling it just isn’t an issue when you’re comparing it to something as weak as a 250w scooter or Bird/Lime. 

IMO I can’t see how you buy the Thunder and ever want to go back to riding those toys.

With its performance, you’ll find a way and excuse to always choose it for the ride or errand, trust me. 

 

EDIT: Hopefully you’ll be buying the Thunder from ewheels and @Jason McNeil and not Ali 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Bruce Scheffel]

@Darrell Wesh.   You are probably right that I will try to find an excuse to use the Thunder once I get it.  I have already thought through the scenarios you discuss and was eyeing the handle. I assume you are talking about this one?  https://www.carbonrevo.com/product/tow-handle-dualtron-speedway-4/.

I assumed that the front tire of the Thunder was not wide enough to simply lift up the rear with the tow handle and roll.  I assumed it was not stable enough and would fall over - are you telling me it's possible?  

I was already thinking I would need to buy four caster wheels and four pieces of plywood and create my own little dolly to lift up the front tire and place it in so I could tow it.  Something like this https://www.amazon.com/Haul-Master-93888-Capacity-Hardwood/dp/B004PANQ2K/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1550195766&amp;sr=8-10&amp;keywords=small+moving+dolly but miniature version and sized to the exact width of the Thunder wheel so it would rest in the middle hole.  

If I could tow the Thunder, you are right I could bring it in more places - namely work.  Right now the security guards at our building will stop you if you try to bring in an unfolded scooter saying "you can't bring a bike in here" (even though it's not a bike).  If the scooter is folded and you are carrying it - they don't say anything.  Since many people bring roller boards and other luggage to work (to go to airport before/after) they allow those so I imagine a scooter being towed would make it past them (and the turnstile/gate I have to go through).   But you are right - im sure as much as I love my Uscooter I will try to find an excuse to ride the Thunder.  18mph and 13 miles range just ain't cutting it for me

Not sure where I'll buy from - either Minimotorsusa.com or ewheels but ewheels has the leg up since they don't charge sales tax and minimotorsusa does.  The 5a charger is also a nice upgrade but if im spending nearly 4K on a scooter - the $180 for the 8a charger on aliexpress + charge doctor is also an option.  

I'll probably end up getting the seat at some point too.  I frequently visit friends that live 20 miles away and the thought of a round trip on a scooter on a single charge is the holy grail.  

Edited February 15, 2019 by Bruce Scheffel

[Darrell Wesh]

11 hours ago, Bruce Scheffel said:

@Darrell Wesh.   You are probably right that I will try to find an excuse to use the Thunder once I get it.  I have already thought through the scenarios you discuss and was eyeing the handle. I assume you are talking about this one?  https://www.carbonrevo.com/product/tow-handle-dualtron-speedway-4/.

I assumed that the front tire of the Thunder was not wide enough to simply lift up the rear with the tow handle and roll.  I assumed it was not stable enough and would fall over - are you telling me it's possible?  

I was already thinking I would need to buy four caster wheels and four pieces of plywood and create my own little dolly to lift up the front tire and place it in so I could tow it.  Something like this https://www.amazon.com/Haul-Master-93888-Capacity-Hardwood/dp/B004PANQ2K/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1550195766&amp;sr=8-10&amp;keywords=small+moving+dolly but miniature version and sized to the exact width of the Thunder wheel so it would rest in the middle hole.  

If I could tow the Thunder, you are right I could bring it in more places - namely work.  Right now the security guards at our building will stop you if you try to bring in an unfolded scooter saying "you can't bring a bike in here" (even though it's not a bike).  If the scooter is folded and you are carrying it - they don't say anything.  Since many people bring roller boards and other luggage to work (to go to airport before/after) they allow those so I imagine a scooter being towed would make it past them (and the turnstile/gate I have to go through).   But you are right - im sure as much as I love my Uscooter I will try to find an excuse to ride the Thunder.  18mph and 13 miles range just ain't cutting it for me

Not sure where I'll buy from - either Minimotorsusa.com or ewheels but ewheels has the leg up since they don't charge sales tax and minimotorsusa does.  The 5a charger is also a nice upgrade but if im spending nearly 4K on a scooter - the $180 for the 8a charger on aliexpress + charge doctor is also an option.  

I'll probably end up getting the seat at some point too.  I frequently visit friends that live 20 miles away and the thought of a round trip on a scooter on a single charge is the holy grail.  

Yes that is the handle. The tires are wide enough to be stable while towing it folded. 

Also, ewheels includes the fingerprint scanner free and 5a charger (at least mines did). I got the seat for my other Dualtron, I think it would be scary to have the seat on the thunder lol.

[erk1024]

On 12/23/2018 at 10:08 AM, Jason McNeil said:

Class 1: Cheap carbon-fiber scooters
Class 2: 8”, <300Wh, <30kph.  ES2, Xiaomi 365, Stryder (280Wh), Gotrax GXL, Swagtron 5
Class 3: 8”, 300-600Wh, >30kph.  ES4, UScooter V/S+, EcoReco L5/L5+
Class 4: 8”, >600Wh, >30kph. Mini4, T8/Zero 8
Class 5: 9”, single-motor, >600Wh. Dart/T9/Zero 9.
Class 6: 10“, single-motor. SW III, IV, T10/Zero 10  
Class 7: 8”, dual-motor. Hornet, DT Raptor
Class 8: 10“, dual-motor, ultralight. DT Spider 
Class 9: 10”,  dual-motor, >1kWh. DT3, DT2, D4+, D5+
Class 10: 11”, dual-motor, ultra-wide tire. Thunder, Ultra

I know I'm late to the discussion, but this is a nice breakdown and better than what I would have come up with. It's a fine system!

I bought a scooter for my daughter, and pre-ordered another one that I can ride, and also one that she might upgrade to, or the wife might ride, whatever. So I was trying to classify them. This was my take fwiw. It's not a very complete list as there are SO MANY SCOOTERS.

Consumer Grade:

It seems like the biggest bucket are the (weak, disposable) low-power, low range, low weight rental style scooters. There are also mildly upgraded versions will a little more power / range. You don't repair these, you just get a new one.

• ES2
• Xiaomi 365 
• Gotrax GXL 
• Swagtron 5
• Xiaomi 365 Pro (upgraded)
• ES4 (upgraded)
• Razor

Enthusiast Scooters:

These are for people who research things and like quality. They have more power, more range, better build quality, usually better suspension, and bigger wheels for roadworthiness. But they are still trying to be portable. Speed approx 25mph. You can get parts for repairs or customization.

• Boosted Rev
• Speedway 3, 4
• Zero 8
• Zero 9, Turbowheel Dart
• Turbowheel Hornet
• WideWheel

Monster Scooters:

For enthusiasts who want to take things to extremes (also useful for bigger / heavier enthusiasts). Bigger wheels, taller suspension, more powerful motors, bigger batteries. Very heavy.

• Speedway 5
• Dualtrons (and clones: Ultron, NanRobot, etc.)
• Turbowheel Lighting, Zero 10X