Lutalo Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 Has anyone ever tried these shoes. They look like they might numb road feel. However, I am thinking numbed road feel is preferable to frozen toes numbed from cold. They are claiming that the battery life for the heater element is up to 10 hours. If I buy them I will only get a couple more months to try them out, because DC weather should start to break around mid/late April and March is pretty much here. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0797RZHRP/?coliid=I3I1G5P0OQ5FBA&colid=1E8PUE6LK0LEX&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 20 hours ago, Lutalo said: Has anyone ever tried these shoes. They look like they might numb road feel. However, I am thinking numbed road feel is preferable to frozen toes numbed from cold. They are claiming that the battery life for the heater element is up to 10 hours. If I buy them I will only get a couple more months to try them out, because DC weather should start to break around mid/late April and March is pretty much here. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0797RZHRP/?coliid=I3I1G5P0OQ5FBA&colid=1E8PUE6LK0LEX&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it# Looks a lot like my hiking shoes I use during the winters. Beware though for the metal in the lacing, especially the top loop, you'll scratch the shell with those. As for numbed road fell, yes there is that, to some extent. I find that as long as I trust the grip of the shoes on the pedals it's not that bad. But if I feel the least tendency to slide in deep corners, on curb jumping and such, the lack of tactile feedback through the thick sole becomes scary. With skate shoes and sneaker-like shoes in general, you feel where the pedals end - even when the sole is of the harder variant. With my hiking shoes I tend to look down whenever I get on or change my position to double check my position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 20 hours ago, Lutalo said: I agree, I think that the perfect platforms would be toe hang free. I notice that when I am in my "anti-speed wobble" - slightly forward of center, there is still significant toe-hang. However my heels no longer hang off the back of the plats; which provides more comfort. I think asymmetric plats would be needed upgrade to eliminate foot hanging on both sides of the foot. These plats would likely resemble the Dr. Schole's inserts we buy to add extra foot support and comfort in our favorite shoes. While I concur that the length of the pedals is crucial to comfort and control, there is an aspect you shouldn't forget. With your shoes hanging out a little bit, if you turn sharp enough to risk scraping, it is often the front side of the pedal that hits the ground first. The shoe is often slightly higher than the longer pedal would be, and it also has some give if you just barely touch the ground. If you hit metal to ground, the risk of losing your balance is quite high. In this I think the MSX and the V10F with their dihedral and higher pedals would be less at risk with really large pedals. I also think that is the reason for the half-moon shape of the large 18XL-pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, Scatcat said: While I concur that the length of the pedals is crucial to comfort and control, there is an aspect you shouldn't forget. With your shoes hanging out a little bit, if you turn sharp enough to risk scraping, it is often the front side of the pedal that hits the ground first. The shoe is often slightly higher than the longer pedal would be, and it also has some give if you just barely touch the ground. If you hit metal to ground, the risk of losing your balance is quite high. In this I think the MSX and the V10F with their dihedral and higher pedals would be less at risk with really large pedals. I also think that is the reason for the half-moon shape of the large 18XL-pedals. Just a Question...do you have a 18L or XL? The pedal height is as high as on the MSX...i have both... Even if i try like crazy, i am Pretty much not able to touch the pedals to Ground :-) MSX/18L...doesnt matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 45 minutes ago, Scatcat said: While I concur that the length of the pedals is crucial to comfort and control, there is an aspect you shouldn't forget. With your shoes hanging out a little bit, if you turn sharp enough to risk scraping, it is often the front side of the pedal that hits the ground first. The shoe is often slightly higher than the longer pedal would be, and it also has some give if you just barely touch the ground. If you hit metal to ground, the risk of losing your balance is quite high. In this I think the MSX and the V10F with their dihedral and higher pedals would be less at risk with really large pedals. I also think that is the reason for the half-moon shape of the large 18XL-pedals. Absolutely, changes in shape and size will create new challenges to resolve in order to make the platforms work on the wheel as effectively. Raising them slightly and increasing the dihedral on the bottom half might neutralize the possibility of more scraping without diminishing comfort. The goal would be to avoid a ridiculously sharp and uncomfortable dihedral on the entire plat like the MSX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 59 minutes ago, Scatcat said: Looks a lot like my hiking shoes I use during the winters. Beware though for the metal in the lacing, especially the top loop, you'll scratch the shell with those. As for numbed road fell, yes there is that, to some extent. I find that as long as I trust the grip of the shoes on the pedals it's not that bad. But if I feel the least tendency to slide in deep corners, on curb jumping and such, the lack of tactile feedback through the thick sole becomes scary. With skate shoes and sneaker-like shoes in general, you feel where the pedals end - even when the sole is of the harder variant. With my hiking shoes I tend to look down whenever I get on or change my position to double check my position. Exactly, I found that I look down more as I mount when I wear my Nike boots. I have ridden numerous times with boots so, although it is not preferable I know it's doable for me for the winter months when riding in very cold temps. When my toes go numb from cold the plat feel is numbed anyway; better to adapt my habits than freeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, US69 said: Just a Question...do you have a 18L or XL? The pedal height is as high as on the MSX...i have both... Even if i try like crazy, i am Pretty much not able to touch the pedals to Ground :-) MSX/18L...doesnt matter. Same here. I have never scraped my pedals turning on my 18L/XL. I think @Scatcat was speculating about what might happen if we altered the shape and size of the current platforms to make more resemble the foot, and prevent toe and heel overhang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 hours ago, US69 said: Just a Question...do you have a 18L or XL? The pedal height is as high as on the MSX...i have both... Even if i try like crazy, i am Pretty much not able to touch the pedals to Ground :-) MSX/18L...doesnt matter. When I measured the pedal height, the MSX pedals were higher by "a little bit". However, because of the increased angle of the MSX pedals, they feel much higher and less likely to scrape than the much flatter XL pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 6 hours ago, Lutalo said: Same here. I have never scraped my pedals turning on my 18L/XL. I think @Scatcat was speculating about what might happen if we altered the shape and size of the current platforms to make more resemble the foot, and prevent toe and heel overhang. You are exactly right. @Unventor has the 18L, and I compared his pedals with mine. While the base is at the same position, or close enough not to matter much, the dihedral is rather sharp on the MSX. I doubt there is any true risk of scraping the 18L/XL under normal riding conditions. But if we project a pedal that is actually long enough to cover the whole sole of a typical US/EU shoe, say 43-44 EU sizing, about 10 US, and wide enough to let us stand without touching the shell and still with our whole feet on the pedals, then the story might be different. Or not. It depends a lot on the shape and thickness, as well as the firmware and tendencies to pedal dip in turns. Personally I find the dihedral of the MSX in itself to be pretty OK (or maybe just a tad too pronounced). The problem I see with the setup, if any, is the combination of rather wide body, and slightly narrow pedals with a pronounced dihedral. I often wish to stand with a bit wider stance than I really can in real life, unless I accept outer overhang, which at least with the hiking boots feel a bit precarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Truth be told, it the scrape is on the wide side not on fron or back side, so a normal sized would have been scraped too. It barly made a mark in the metal, but the black paint got scraped off on the edge. So I guess it look like a wheel in use, not a pristine unboxed item 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, Unventor said: Truth be told, it the scrape is on the wide side not on fron or back side, so a normal sized would have been scraped too. It barly made a mark in the metal, but the black paint got scraped off on the edge. So I guess it look like a wheel in use, not a pristine unboxed item 🙄 Yes, but as you go forward into a turn, the lowest point of the pedal is the side towards the front edge. So if you make the pedal longer in the forward direction without curving it inwards, you lower the lowest point further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Scatcat said: Yes, but as you go forward into a turn, the lowest point of the pedal is the side towards the front edge. So if you make the pedal longer in the forward direction without curving it inwards, you lower the lowest point further. You will see next time we meet. Hope the flue or cold you had is clearing soon. You know the big roundabout at the Circle K gas station. That was the spot as I were on my way home. I have to both toe/heel turn with added shoulder twist and added leaning that went too far while breaking doing this. I am a bit surprised I kept this under full control even during the scraping. One of my sharpest turn ever..at that speed 😄 Note: The BMW was pushing out despite red light for a tram passing in the center, right outside this pciture. I had to go by pedestrians crossing on last part due tp stoped car. Meeting 2 pedestrians making the yellow scraping turn more of an S turn than L (mirrowed)turn, at 20kmh into a breaking turn. To me it just feels like my skill have improved a lot since I started to ride nearly a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, Unventor said: You will see next time we meet. Hope the flue or cold you had is clearing soon. You know the big roundabout at the Circle K gas station. That was the spot as I were on my way home. I have to both toe/heel turn with added shoulder twist and added leaning that went too far while breaking doing this. I am a bit surprised I kept this under full control even during the scraping. One of my sharpest turn ever..at that speed 😄 To me it just feels like my skill have improved a lot simce I started to ride nearly a year ago. Oh, quite so. You look relaxed now in a whole different way than the first time we went out and you had that spill. The closest I've come to scraping on flat ground was between Sahlgrenska and Slottsskogen, coming downhill at a bit too high speed and turning sharply without slowing down enough. I was pretty damn close to make a MC-style loss of grip and slide at about 25-30kph, a little bit of sand in the wrong place and that would have been it. This is the turn, and the arrow marks the point where I wasn't sure if I would scrape and lose traction: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Scatcat said: Oh, quite so. Updated my post above with attempt to draw on map picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Marty Backe said: When I measured the pedal height, the MSX pedals were higher by "a little bit". However, because of the increased angle of the MSX pedals, they feel much higher and less likely to scrape than the much flatter XL pedals. That's true. I haven't measured bit they sure do look higher. Mostly because of the aggressive dihedral on the MSX; as you have pointed out. Both plats seem high enough to avoid scraping being a major issue though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Unventor said: To me it just feels like my skill have improved a lot since I started to ride nearly a year ago. That tends to happen with repetition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Unventor said: You will see next time we meet. Hope the flue or cold you had is clearing soon. You know the big roundabout at the Circle K gas station. That was the spot as I were on my way home. I have to both toe/heel turn with added shoulder twist and added leaning that went too far while breaking doing this. I am a bit surprised I kept this under full control even during the scraping. One of my sharpest turn ever..at that speed 😄 Note: The BMW was pushing out despite red light for a tram passing in the center, right outside this pciture. I had to go by pedestrians crossing on last part due tp stoped car. Meeting 2 pedestrians making the yellow scraping turn more of an S turn than L (mirrowed)turn, at 20kmh into a breaking turn. To me it just feels like my skill have improved a lot since I started to ride nearly a year ago. Those sketching skills though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Scatcat said: Personally I find the dihedral of the MSX in itself to be pretty OK (or maybe just a tad too pronounced). The problem I see with the setup, if any, is the combination of rather wide body, and slightly narrow pedals with a pronounced dihedral. Yes, I would say too pronounced for comfort during commuting and recreational riding. But probably rather confidence inspiring when traversing off road trails of intermediate, and greater-than-intermediate difficulty. I scraped the bottom of my platform on a curb last week. The plat was just high enough to clear the curb, but flat enough to scrape. I dare say, that I would have seen less damage if the dihedral was sharper. Mind you, I don't want a sharper dihedral on the XL; they are best the way they are. Just noticed an area where a sharper dihedral could have helped to preserve the sharp look of those black platforms . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 14 hours ago, Lutalo said: With skate shoes and sneaker-like shoes in general, you feel where the pedals end - even when the sole is of the harder variant. I prefer the harder skate variant for EUCs. I find that it takes the edge off of the foot fatigue ache on longer rides while transmitting a comforting amount of feel from the platforms. I test for proper hardness by attempting to vertically collapse the bottom of the shoe. If it is too easy to collapse the sole, then I consider the shoe too soft for long distance riding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 13 hours ago, Lutalo said: Those sketching skills though I only picked up sketching previous week😋 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Unventor said: I only picked up sketching previous week😋 Dude. You're a natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 On 2/22/2019 at 6:38 AM, Scatcat said: Looks a lot like my hiking shoes I use during the winters. Beware though for the metal in the lacing, especially the top loop, you'll scratch the shell with those. Thanks. I will watch out for that lacing; cut those ends off if these have them. What's cool about these is that they have a battery operated heater element built in to the sole of the shoe. Are your boots heated like these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Well for the few that might be curious here is a picture of the result after my scrape incident described above. As you can see I doubt that normal size would avoided the scrape. Codo to @Jason McNeil for the finalised design after his trails. You could argue that it was more of skid than a scrape 😎 I do think the 2 pedestrians I had to navigate around in my breaking turn are a bit impressed by the manuverbility of an EUC. That said it was my neck or arse on the line. Adrenalin makes us humans able to do amazing things at times. And I didn't even need a shower or do laundry when I got home.😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Lutalo said: Thanks. I will watch out for that lacing; cut those ends off if these have them. What's cool about these is that they have a battery operated heater element built in to the sole of the shoe. Are your boots heated like these? Nope, they're warm enough as is. I find that the thicker sole and higher cut is perfectly good for chills down to about 20°F/-7°C even when you're static on the pedals. Also I wear sport socks with a wool/elastan blend that feels like normal socks but are a lot warmer. They're much like downhill ski socks, just a bit less extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutalo Posted February 24, 2019 Author Share Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Scatcat said: Nope, they're warm enough as is. I find that the thicker sole and higher cut is perfectly good for chills down to about 20°F/-7°C even when you're static on the pedals. Also I wear sport socks with a wool/elastan blend that feels like normal socks but are a lot warmer. They're much like downhill ski socks, just a bit less extreme. Cool. I am quite curious about that battery operated heater element. Might order a pair and test them out before DC winter goes to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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